Scottish stud sell off...?

[hettie123]

How exciting - I have just had my first post removed!! As yet no explanation as to why - I feel very naughty

!!!!!!!!!!

In my post I mentioned I would be emailing Defra to question the legality of what occurred and why the Vet/LA Inspectors did not seem to act/raise concerns about these infringements. If anyone else would like to email them here is the email address: horse.passports@defra.gsi.gov.uk

 

[magic104]

This is censorship & has nothing to do with slander etc. If people post what they have seen or know to be facts why are they being shut down!!

 

[AengusOg]

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance of a copy AO please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid not, I didn't copy it, unfortunately.

I won't repeat it, but I would like for it to be reinstated here, or at least be given an explanation as to why it was deemed unsuitable.

I'll be sure to copy everything in future.

 

[AmyMay]

Wow some serious and uncessary editing going on here.

Shame HHO - no need..........

 

[jamesmead]

Admin has confirmed that it was my posting of the SSPCA contact no. that was the issue. It was only for my "personal" use.

Apologies if I have mislead anyone by posting what I assumed to be a public number.

This begs the question as to why I was given a personal link following the hasty closure of the original thread. IMO a personal reassurance under these circumstances would have been no reassurance at all; any assurances and explanations could have been given to better effect on the public forum.

 

[auchenblae]

But several other posts have been deleted, not just your one??

All this editing/removal of posts is very suspicious to say the least. What it shows is that there are people worried about what is being brought to light and trying to put a lid on it all! I for one will not let that happen because I think there are far too many implications for all horse owners with regards to this whole sorry affair.

Also with the amount of viewings that this thread has had, it shows there there are A LOT of people concerned about what is going on with everything that has been mentioned.

 

[magic104]

Viewings dont indicate a lot of people as there will be many repeat viewings. This issue of duplicate passports & MC's does need highlighting because like NED it obviously does not work very well. Why is that most government run departments just come across as a right shambles. What bloody good is it if a horse can have 2 passports & 2 MC's just because a government body ok'd it, because the receivers could not get the necessary paperwork or shell out the necessary fees, if any. You see I dont understand why these horses were not sold with their original passports like any other horse sale. When the horses were seized why were they not taken with their passports & sold from the farm?

 

[auchenblae]

[ QUOTE ]
Viewings dont indicate a lot of people as there will be many repeat viewings. This issue of duplicate passports & MC's does need highlighting because like NED it obviously does not work very well. Why is that most government run departments just come across as a right shambles. What bloody good is it if a horse can have 2 passports & 2 MC's just because a government body ok'd it, because the receivers could not get the necessary paperwork or shell out the necessary fees, if any. You see I dont understand why these horses were not sold with their original passports like any other horse sale. When the horses were seized why were they not taken with their passports & sold from the farm?

[/ QUOTE ]

Magic I would like to say that some did have their original passports, but I have no idea whether they were given another chip or not (as most horses imported from Holland over the last 6 years or so would have been chiped in Holland), so this did not affect all the horses. There were also a couple of Oldenburg passports but again there was "word" that horses had received another chip. But I would say that 2/3rds of the horses had the Horse Passport Agency passports, even though in the catalogue it said some were graded by the SSH.

 

[cefyl]

I cannot see why any posts held a reason for admin to delete from this thread. Nothing was defamatory, slanderous, in breach of forum T&C, even listing a phone number for the SSPCA is not against the T&C as written out by H&H.

This whole saga should be made public. Please all of you - jamesmead, AengusOg, Narys, etc who seem to have solid factual evidence of the passport fraud, transport of a horse with a severe pre-existing injury, and neglet while in the "care" of the SSPCA (no water etc) - contact the tv / radio / newspapers. Don't rely on H&H to write a "story" on it. Journalists like Simon Barnes who are involved in the general equine world but write for a major national such as The Times may be a starting point?

Finally the RSPCA are under investigation for their captive bolt / GSD fiasco. Don't let the SSPCA and DEFRA get away with this scot free.

 

[jamesmead]

I have to agree; I feel that the horse industry as a whole has to pin down just what went wrong here and why, and make sure that it cannot happen again.

 

[henryhorn]

Gosh, my post has been deleted now too, I'm sure I didn't say anything libellous in it at all...
I wonder if we have a new member of Admin who is being a bit over zealous?

 

[EPRider]

I too had posted and it has disappeared and not at all contraversial that I know of.

 

[Kilbricken]

Clearly asking for an article jointly between Defra and HHO was too hot to explain to normal horse owners why alledged duplicate passports are allowed

and therefore had to be removed with no courtesy of a PM to explain why....

 

[Rollin]

If anyone who has more personal knowledge than myself and plans to write to DEFRA pm me. Horse Passports have long been dear to my heart NOT I have an email for someone more senior.

 

[auchenblae]

This is the "issues" as I see them:

1. A lot of issues surround the passports/chipping of some of these horses?? Did the vets check for chips before inserting them? Did anyone actually phone the breed associations first before giving these horses the cheap passports and basically “de valuing” some of their worth, and causing major problems for new owners?

2. DEFRA, The Local Authority (trading standards), SSPCA, ANM Mart all know there are issues with the above and choosing to ignore it, and rather than get conformation of this they still go ahead with the sale (as they have some kind of passport). What impression does this give all horses owners who abide by the rules!

3. “The receiver’s” money put before the welfare of the horses. Again if these horses were "at risk" why had they not been removed from the property and re-homed as appropriate? Why leave them on the property with minimal care by either the owner (that being "the receivers"), or the welfare organisation or vets who were being utilised by them? Did the vets working on behalf of “the receivers” say to them at any point that these horses should be re-homed via a welfare organisation, was this backed up by the SSPCA policies? Where both the Vets and SSPCA just making sure those horses were “fit” for sale and not putting the welfare first?

4. None of the above organisations making sure those purchasers are fully aware of the health/injuries of horses being sold. "Sold as seen" was the comment I believe.

5. Horses ages being changed from what they were described in the catalogue as to what they are. Including a query of a horse being aged at 4, when it is actually 3, and posing problems for young horse classes now! Horses down as being graded by a breed association when they had not?

6. How many auction houses sell animals that have been heavily sedated? According to those working at the mart all the horses had been sedated. According to the auctioneer only "some" have been sedated! Has all this been recorded in the passports? If they needed to be heavily sedated does this not tell everyone that the whole thing was wrong?? These horses were so stressed at their situation that they needed sedated!!

7. The basic welfare of the horses on the day of the mart being ignored. No horses given water at all throughout the day, even though vets and SSPCA in attendance! Another horse is heavily sedated and it takes a complete stranger to notice a problem with it? Another horse looks to have mild colic but again was this picked up by anyone, or was it just sedated to keep it quiet?

8. The welfare of all the animals being ignored! How could the vets and/or SSPCA sanction putting these animals into a mart environment with lots of people as being in the best interest of these horses!? Unless under direct instruction by "the receivers"?

9. What welfare organisation puts aged horses through a mart environment, where other welfare organisations have gone to purchase these horses to make sure they are given a good retirement home?

 

[snoopmummy]

I was at the sale and although I wasn't directly involved with any of the microchip or passport issues, I CAN vouch for the fact that from the time I arrived there at 10a.m. till I left just befor 2p.m. there was absolutely no access to any water for those horses. They were being prodded and poked by crowds of people including some noisy children and some were clearly stressed. Only one of the stallions was brought into the ring for the sale, the others being kept in their pens - how was anybody supposed to see if there was any lameness?? I also know that there WAS information about any underlying health issues but that that information was not to be given out and that they were to be sold 'as seen' !! How can that possibly be in the best interests of the animals OR the prospective buyers ??

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
If anyone who has more personal knowledge than myself and plans to write to DEFRA pm me. Horse Passports have long been dear to my heart NOT I have an email for someone more senior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I have already spoken to them (I see them quite often at meetings -- including the one at which we all agreed what offences were created by transgressing each particular clause in the new legislation) so calls from me are not a major / threatening event and as a result of what I told them yesterday they asked me to gather together all the information that I could and send it to them -- especially that concerning any PROOF of double microchipping, which they seem almost more concerned about than duplicate passports. This is becuase checking for microchips is meant to stop any duplicate microchips and passports being issued, which obviously did not happen in this case.

So, not to step on your toes Rollin, but perhaps the info might be best coming in a co-ordinated format from me, especially as not only are they now expecting it, but I am already involved in helping a couple of people on here sort out their problems anyway. Also, it might help that I actually have quite a postive working relationship with the passport people in Defra (both as a studbook PIO and on an individual basis) as I am currently preparing a set of guidelines for PIOs on ways of working that re-inforce the DEFRA requirements for PIOs to 'operate efficiently' (which might not be the case here if all that has been claimed is substantiated)) so there are aspects of this issue that willl trigger a considerable amount if internal investigation if presented to them in the right way.

Hope that helps. You can all PM me or e-mail me via celia@cwath.demon.co.uk if you feel that is more secure.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot see why any posts held a reason for admin to delete from this thread. Nothing was defamatory, slanderous, in breach of forum T&C, even listing a phone number for the SSPCA is not against the T&C as written out by H&H.

This whole saga should be made public. Please all of you - jamesmead, AengusOg, Narys, etc who seem to have solid factual evidence of the passport fraud, transport of a horse with a severe pre-existing injury, and neglet while in the "care" of the SSPCA (no water etc) - contact the tv / radio / newspapers. Don't rely on H&H to write a "story" on it. Journalists like Simon Barnes who are involved in the general equine world but write for a major national such as The Times may be a starting point?

Finally the RSPCA are under investigation for their captive bolt / GSD fiasco. Don't let the SSPCA and DEFRA get away with this scot free.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did complain to Adnin about my posts being deleted both without warning and without explanation and I got a reply from Carole saying that the reason they were deleted was because they were in a thread that contained someone's private number which was being posted without permission. Apparently my posts -- and others on the same thread -- were not deleted becuase of their contents but just becuase the HHO system does not allow a post in a thread to be deleted without the following ones being taken out as well <sigh>. Personally as I always view my posts flat format (ie by receipt order) it is a pretty irrelevant answer and my comment to HHO on this whole sorry saga would just be 'If that is the case just get another program that is more up to date and user friendly as the present system obviously isn't working properly <sigh&gt.

BTW, Carole did say I could repost all my deleted messages but I think that most of you that want to will have read them so I won't put you all through that again

 

[S_N]

Really? Well then why has exactly that - the deletion of posts within a thread - happened previously, without affecting the remaining posts. Most odd!

 

[wendyII]

I've been speaking with a friend in Scotland about the sale and what went on and he raised a few interesting points that I wasn't aware of. The first thing he mentioned was that people keep rasing the issue of informing DEFRA but they dont have any juristiction in Scotland? Is that right? He say's Scottish Gov have their own regulations, looked into it a bit and I found this on the Scottish Gov website but not very good at deciphering what it all means but it seems to offer guidance as to how to proceed if a previous microchip is detected. Would be interested on others take on it? Does this mean it is not an offense for a vet to administer a microchip when one is already in place?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/931/0085952.pdf

and it also says:

[ QUOTE ]
Breaches of the Horse Identification (Scotland) Regulations 2009

5. Anyone who suspects a breach of these Regulations should report their concerns to their Local Authority Inspectors and NOT Scottish Government. It is Local Authorities who are responsible for enforcing the legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

So shouldn't it be the local trading standards office to where the sale took place that investigate and nothing to with DEFRA

Has anyone reported it to the local Trading Standards yet?

 

[S_N]

Ahhh but doesn't it depend on who the 're'-issuing authority is? If that PIO is based in England, then they'd fall under English law and therefore DEFRA, no matter if acting in Scotland - correct?

 

[Cuffey]

The original Policy was laid out by Defra and devolved to Scottish Gov--so if policy is not working the argument is with them
So yes agree that Trading Standards are responsible for ''policing'' passports--not just in Scotland
TS Depts in local councils were not given a budget for this ''policing'' so it does depend on where you are in the country how involved TS get
They should definitely follow up specific complaints which would have to come from purchasers not observers

 

[delphie468]

which PIO issued the new passports?

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been speaking with a friend in Scotland about the sale and what went on and he raised a few interesting points that I wasn't aware of. The first thing he mentioned was that people keep rasing the issue of informing DEFRA but they dont have any juristiction in Scotland? Is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no its completly wrong in this specific case. This is becuase although DEFRA does not normally have any jursdiction in Scotland, the regulations that govern the way a PIO issues passports are governed by the country in which the PIO is based rather than where the horses are based that are issued passports by them, so any complaints about possible duplicate passports issued by (say) HPA must be addressed to Defra not to the Scottish Dept. Defra confirmed this to me yesterday when I spoke to them.

 

[wendyII]

that does make sense but surely it would be worth while contacting trading standards as well no? How many passports have been fraudulently applied for and where are the originals? why didn't the trustees have them in the first place? surely its their duty to maximise the return on any sales that's what they are appointed to do, look after the trustees assets, maximise income and payoff creditors.

 

[fitzby]

On arriving at the sale, very early, I was completely horrified at the goings on. I fought with myself the entire time to leave or stay, when the opportunity was being presented to buy a well bred horse at a bargain price. I decided to stay. I couldn't help but question why was this happening like this, why hadn't they just sold the horses from the farm?

I wonder if the problem of the whole event was the same as of the day. Everyone at the sale seemed out of their depth. Apart from one woman from animal welfare who seemed to be running the show. All the mart staff and SSPCA were looking to her for advice. Everyone involved seemed to be as stressed as the horses. They knew what they were doing and what they were involved in was wrong and they didn't know what to do about it. They all were looking at this woman shouting "Pauline" at every stressful situation. On the start of this sale "Pauline" was no where to be seen and had obviously left the sinking ship.

I watched many unfortunate events the most horrific being the stallion Hollyland Donovan receiving too much sedation which meant he went completely over his back and fell against the railings in the small pen. The vet was there and said to shocked on lookers "this sometimes happens". I viewed Donovans papers where the sedations were noted as well as those he had received the day before.

At the end of the sale and speaking to mart staff, who were very helpful and efficient, their was a feeling that great wrongs had been bestowed against these horses but at least the meat man wasn't there and they all should have good homes now. Their ordeal was over.

 

[Var]

sigh..... arent you being just a touch melodramatic?

That doesnt tie up with my experience of the sale at all. Yes the coloured stallion did over-react to the sedation but would you rather he'd injured himself or someone?

this is an emotive subject but lets keep it in perspective.

 

[fitzby]

Sorry if I sound melodramatic.

If you had a stallion would you have put it in those small pens and sedated it? I think not. Don't you think animal welfare or SSPCA would have had something to say if you did?

 

[Spook]

Does no one else think that the sale of these horses was the best out come? ........I was at the sale, the horses presented were in better condition than I expected them to be and not any more stressed than a 5yo child at school for the first day. Any horses which had been sedated ( and I think it was only 2 or3 of them) had this stated at point of sale by the auctioneer.

What shocked me most was the constant noise and chatter whilst the auctioneer was declaring the conditions of sale, indicating to me that there were alot of lookers and time wasters, and yes one of the mares was knocked down to me.

What a fuss about an auction.......do you object to the sales at Ascot, Doncaster, Ballsbridge etc. etc.

It is not the sale that was the problem but the circustances leading to it........If the animal charities want to do something constructive in these circumstances they should be buying the very old, sick and sorry and putting them down themselves.

 

[Var]

I dont have a problem with the pens the horses had room to move around - they were knee deep in straw and had nice haylage.

Yes i woudl put a stallion (or any horse) in those pens - in fact they were of a similar size to temporary stables at most competitions, in fact maybe slightly bigger!

The horse in question was anxious and sedation helped it cope with the situation - he was potentially stirred up by mares being in close proximity. This is far from an issue for animal welfare. Its not uncommon for stallions at competions to become upset if they are stabled close to mares and attempt to climb - also far from an issue for animal welfare.

Its an emotive subject i appreciate but its worth trying to break it all down a bit and not get swept along in the mob outrage - it really was far from terrible.