Second attempt failed - would like your thoughts please.

[Ravenwood]

I only got back from Spain today but yesterday evening the stud rang me to say that my mare had come into season again. Terribly disappointing as this is the second try and last time she had a chorulon injection and only stood twice before going off.

I have thought long and hard over the last 24 hours and have decided to give it one last try for this year. She was covered today and the vet is coming out to scan her Monday morning to see if she is pooling fluid, the stud owner thinks this is a likely reason she is not catching, or the fact that she is a very stressed traveller and it may have put her out of kilter on the way to stud each time.

If the vet finds fluid they will cleanse her and give her a course of oxytocin - if that doesn't work then I am giving up, for this year at least. He has also suggested she might benefit from a caslick - but I haven't agreed to this just yet.

I am really getting cold feet now, its costing an awful lot more than I thought it would (but hey, thats horses for you!) and I am a real believer in fate - maybe she's not meant to have a foal and if she does because of my persistence, what if it all goes wrong?

The stud have been brilliant, he is determined to get my mare in foal because he thinks so highly of her and is sure that the foal (if there ever is one) will be an absolute cracker! They are going to ring me on Monday to tell me what the vet thinks.

If anyone has any thoughts, advice or experience on difficulties getting a mare in foal - I would be very pleased to hear them.

Yours despondent from Somerset!

 

[Haniki]

I'm sorry to hear your mare is not in foal. No suggestions I'm afraid. I've got a horse on loan to ride because she spent most of last year at stud but didn't get in foal. My own mare had to have Regumate when she went to stud many years ago but she did go on to have a foal that year and the next. Mind you the daughter wasn't anything like the mother which was rather disappointing - I wanted a point to pointer and ended up with a Charolais bullock! She is very easy to have around (unlike her mother) and 16 years later I do still have her. Good luck.

 

[Gingerbear]

Hi,

I know of someone who kept pushing for the mare to get in foal! in the end they did, but 10 monthes later the mare suffered a ruptured pre pubic tendon, mare died in foling & foal died 24 hours later.

sorry but nature sometimes does things for a reason!!!!

 

[Rollin]

Natural covering or AI?

 

[Delarose]

Hi Ravenwood,
I really sympathise with you having previously had a mare that didn't take after three attempts - I changed the stallion and heh presto!

So, just a suggestion, could it be him, not her? (Assuming she gets the all clear from the vet on Monday). You don't say if she has previously had a foal or how old she is?

Fingers crossed for you

 

[Ravenwood]

QR: Haniki you made me chuckle

Actually like you I am breeding not for profit but for my next horse - so fingers crossed I don't get a charolais bull either!!

Gingerbear - thats awful and very much what I dread

Rollin - she is being naturally covered (in hand, not actually running with him). Because my mare is 15 I have been advised against AI - I did look into it and discussed it with an AI specialist. Also at the time the costs were so high - obviously thats by the by now!!

Delarose: She is 15 and has foaled before, although she was only 2 or 3 at the time (previous owners). I had specifically chosen this Connemara stallion and I am terribly lucky that he is so close to me. All the other Connies that I like are so far away - she is a terrible traveller and as said above - it seems that AI is just as likely to be unsuccessful.

Its a bit of pointless post really - just wanted to discuss it with you all

 

[TheresaW]

Not much help as I am a first time breeder, but why is AI likely to be unsuccessful? My Mare is 16 this year, and as far as I know a maiden. She has gone away to stud to be AI'd. She went to the stud so that we could use fresh semen. She needed flushing out as she was quite dirty inside (apparently common in a mare of her age), and did pool some fluid. She has also been caslicked. She has taken first time. Only problem is that she has twinned, so one was pinched yesterday and I have to wait a couple of days to find out if the other one is ok.

 

[Ravenwood]

Thats very interesting TW - I was told by more than one person that AI would be very hit and miss with a mare over the age of 15.

I am thrilled for you that she has taken first time (lucky bugger!) and fingers crossed you get a foal next year

I feel that I am committed now though with this stud who are trying so hard to get her in foal. If I suddenly change to a different stallion next year or attempt AI, I will lose the stud fee and the expense already incurred this year and it would make me feel disloyal. I feel that I have got in so deep now its hard to know where to draw the line.

 

[TheresaW]

I will keep everything crossed for you. Hopefully a good wash out etc may be all she needs. The stud I have used have been fantastic, as I'm sure the one you are using are, and they had told me that there were other things they could do if she didn't take this time.

 

[Ravenwood]

What other things did they suggest? She has had Chorulon, she stands superbly for the stallion, everything seems to go fine, when she was scanned first time the vet, when he found she wasn't in foal, scanned everything to make sure there were no abnormalities. We can only put it down to the travelling (but obviously this time she has stayed there) or if she is pooling fluid.

 

[luckilotti]

Last year my mare went to stud twice, also aged 15. She had bred 3 foals previously (including the year before). She was covered in hand and was in season a long time when in!
After the 1st attempt, she was scanned empty, during the scan, i asked if everything looked ok in there, the answer was yes, i was told the size of the follice and he advised i took her back in 10 days time, and have her jabbed into season. (seems he got it wrong as from advice on here - which i actually think was better than the vets! the mare should have gone straight back to stud considering the size of the follicle). Anyway, she was covered again after being jabbed. This time she was washed out within 24hours of the last service as suggested by a different vet/and the stud. She came home and at the scan, empty. By this time it was August so i decided to give up for the year, again during the scan, i asked the vet to see if everything looked as it should, it did.

So onto this year..... she was swabbed and it came back negative (phew... as i was wondering if maybe the stallion 'had' something!) I waited for quite some time as she didnt appear to be coming into season, worring due to age no longer being on her side. But then she seemed to change her moods and i decided to return her to the stud. She is a nightmare to load so that was quite eventful!
This year i decided to change stallions. (this years stallion, they decided to increase the fee once i asked to switch! so i had an additional stud fee to pay despite the NFFR and both stallions being the same price last year, and the stallion i have now used, hasnt done anything in the last year to make him a better prospect) Anyway.............. the stud suggested i dont mess about and get her washed out straight after the last covering. I decided not to and guess what, she was scanned on wednesday and she has a blob!

The only differences this year are:
the mare is a year older!
it was a different stallion,
i insisted that she was turned out during the day this year as i found out that last year, she had been stabled 24/7, maybe this made a difference to her? (this mare normally lives out 24/7 all year)

My 'advice' from my limited experience would be to try and make sure the vet is also having a good look around at her insides when hes scanning incase he spots something, and consider changing stallions. Maybe try and ensure that your mare is 'happy' at the stud, ie. same routine as much as possible.

It sounds as if you are in quite a similar situation as i was in, esp in the respect that my mare isnt a good traveller/loader and gets rather sweaty/stressed.
Assuming its a NFFR its worth trying again next year i think, assuming again that the vet can see no obvious reason for her not concieving. As a vet told me, humans sometimes just dont concieve sometimes, so why should we expect mares to take straight away?

My other bit of advice is - dont add up how much its costing you! (i stopped when i got to quite a scarey figure, but considered the fact i had already invested so much, i ought to spend a couple of hundred pounds this year to try and see it through).

Fingers crossed for your mare and that mine holds on!

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
Because my mare is 15 I have been advised against AI - I did look into it and discussed it with an AI specialist. Also at the time the costs were so high - obviously thats by the by now!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it wierd you were advised against AI, I had a mare that was 11 when I started trying to breed from her suffered severe fluid pooling, i tried getting her infoal by natural coverings over a couple of years (yes years) but she was attended for after treatment everytime, I gave up trying and then I started to get involved with AI and she was 15 and I decided to give her a go with fresh AI off my stallion and she took first time, the vet couldn't believe it at the first scan when he could see a pregnancy... I would have thought fresh AI would have been a good choice

Other than that all I can suggest is that from now on the vet comes and does a post covering check on every attempt because they can check that she has ovulated and give any treatment that could increase her chances of concieveing

she may only need some antibiotics in her uterus ot she could bepooling fluid and need a flush and some oxytocin but I am now of the opinion of if your going to put a mare in foal you may as well do everything you can to get them in foal on the first attempt...

Good luck, hopefully third time lucky

 

[magic104]

I am another who wonders what the problem with AI at 15 is. Our mare was scanned & as soon as I was given the OK drove to the collection centre (watched it being collected, nice!), drove back gave it to my vets. They did their bit, she was scanned again, everything checked she stayed another couple of days then came home. 14 days later scanned in-foal, this was July & she had gone in Feb for natural. If I had known how inexperienced the stallion was & how inept the handlers were, I would have had her AI'd a lot sooner. But that comes down to people not being completly honest.

Even in your case I would have thought AI would have been fine. My sister failed to get her 18yo in-foal but I also think that it was a combination of her age along with the stallion who's fertility was in doubt due to his age as well. This mare has had 4 foals in her younger days. So good luck & fingers crossed for you.

 

[Kenniford]

I am not an expert but, one of our mares can be difficult to get in foal. But whether its her or any other mare they are scanned 6 hours after AI and washed out then, they also have oxytocin then and following (what the vets instructs to give). The particular mare i mentioned above was also washed out the following day as well as six hours after AI. We do not put antibiotics in the wash out either as some do. Took 3 attempts last year and 4 the year before, but see post Kenniford Samberumba to see the result! Good Luck!

 

[Brenjack]

Hi. My mare was at stud for 2 years and covered in hand with no success. She was aged 13 and 14. So I gave up and rode her last year. At the end of last year when she was 15 she had a ligament injury so vet and I decided to give it one last go this year using AI. She was served, washed out etc, given the normal drugs re fluid etc and she took first time. She's 16.

I am not sure I would use natural covering again to be honest - I'd prefer AI. But I appreciate it's horses for courses and it doesn't suit everybody.

 

[Touchwood]

Ravenwood - the first point about your story that concerns me is that the mare was covered Friday, yet is not being scanned until Monday.

That is far to late to start dealing with fluid.

We are an AI centre, and I don't know why people would suggest AI is not suitable for older mares. Older mares do have a tendancy towards putting up fluid....but logic says by putting a small amount of semen into a mare by AI is far less introduction of fluid - not to mention all the lovely 'extras' a stallion ejaculates into the mare. The only reason people could be saying this is that the process of natural covering/teasing causes mares to release Oxytocin which helps to expel excess fluid - well Oxytocin is cheap and easy to administer, so you can mimic this natural response when using AI anyway!

When we AI a mare, we scan her the following morning to firstly make sure she has ovulated and secondly to check for fluid. Regardless of whether there is or not, we will treat for it with Oxytocin as standard. It does them no harm and a lot of good! If the mare is showing in excess of 2cm of fluid, she will have a saline wash out too. This approach works very well with us.

 

[gillianelliott]

I worked at a stud for 5 years (5 working stallions) (200+) mares on books per season. I always found the determining factors to be age, conformation of pelvis and breed to be highest on list - with past breeding history coming into it aswell. You only really want to be covering twice per season, as too much covering can also help pool fluid, which I suspect you may already have a problem with. The synthetic hormones etc are very clever with getting another season around again quick - but how is your mare ovulating .. are the follicles good enough and is the stud covering within 24 hours of ovulation ? Do they scan her to see if she ovulating properly ? Because if she isnt all the wash outs in the world wont work. Are her cycles normal in length - 5 days on apprx and 16 days off .. if she is short or long cycling then there proabably is a reason for that. Can the stud give you advise on what the vet thinks and let you make a decision from there on how to proceed. Normally where there is a way (finally) but its how much financial input this will take depending on diagnosis. I wish you a happy ending. Good luck.

 

[henryhorn]

With a mare like this I would be getting her scanned when she is obviously in season and covering when the vet advises. That way you don't need to cover more than twice at most.
I would also look closely at the number of mares the stallion actually got in foal previously, if his fertility isn't the best, that's most likely the reason.
If you do get her in foal, leave her at the stud a few weeks before the stress of travelling her home, it makes a difference with ones who sweat profusely travelling I feel.

 

[angrovestud]

Hope this helps we have our Stallion outside in a paddock near the mares we have had some sub fertile and very difficut aged mares 15 + and Maidens with pooling we tease them all day long as Ricco is outside and shouts to them which helps, they wee! they are covered only once and as we can usually tell when they are Ovulating as Ricco is out telling us! we then cover just once then Oxytocin 5 /6 hours after covering and we have had really good results we have only had 1 mare in four years we have failed to get in to foal.
and she has to be AI. we have covered 50+ mares

 

[S_N]

A few questions for you to ask the stud:

1) Why, when she has come up empty twice, was she not scanned prior to cover this time? IME she should have been. This relates to question 2

2) Why, when covered on Friday, is the vet not coming out till Monday to scan to check for fluid? If she has fluid, it needs dealing with prior to and immediately after covering. It can be dealt with in several ways - intramuscular injections of Oxytocin and/or Reprocine and as your mare is sound, then she could also be lunged to help expel any fluid. Also inserting a catheter into the urethra to help expel fluid completely away from the reproductive tract can be really beneficial in mares of an unusual perineal conformation - this is of course if she is pooling any fluid!

3) Why was she injected with Chorulon, when she hadn't been scanned by the vet? This drug forces ovulation, without knowing the size of her folicles, this may actually prevent her conceiving.

It's all very well teasing mares into season and covering them until they go out of season and then scanning to see if they are in-foal, but if they come up empty more than once, then some investigations need to be carried out before wasting more time and money covering and using drugs that may not help the situation.

A caslicks may well help her, but you MUST remember to open her up prior to foaling - something that can often be overlooked. However, without the caslicks, she may not conceive/carry to term.

With regards to the comment about AI and maiden mares and mares over a certain age - I too was told this by many people, when I bred from my mare for the first time. She was only 8, but a maiden. It's not true, but it is a good ploy of some stallion owners to get mares sent to their stallion/stud

As it happens, the stallion I chose for her first foal only did natural cover, as at the time his semen was un-chillable.

Breeding is such a minefield! Hug hugs hun!! She is such a lovely mare, she would certainly produce you a cracking youngster to carry on with.

 

[Ravenwood]

QR:

Thank you all so very much - so many informative replies

I'll just point out (as its cropped up twice) she was covered on Saturday (and I think again today) with the vet coming out first thing Monday morning. Not Friday as I might have said by mistake!

Re scanning before cover - the first time, I had her scanned 14 days after the last covering and a follicle was measured at 3cm, she came into season three/four days later which is when she was covered for the second time and given the choulon injection.

This third attempt will be the first time she has been at stud prior to coming into season, the previous two occassions I drove her over when she was in season (she is very obvious!) and as mentioned is an awful stressy traveller - so this alone may be the reason.

She is a very laid back kinda gal (apart from travelling!!) and is out 24/7 with a couple of other mares and she seems perfectly happy there.

I will let you all know what the vet says on Monday.

But, thanks again everyone for the advice and good luck vibes

 

[irishdraught]

If is is any consolation, last year my mare took on her fifth attempt at AI (4 frozen and the last one chilled semen).

She had her foal last week.

She was 11 (now 12) and was a maiden mare. She stayed at the vets prior to being inseminated and she was scanned twice a day until the optimim time.

It is definately an expensive exercise but don't give up heart just yet if it is what you really want. The fifth insemination was going to be the last attempt with my mare and swapping from the frozen to the chilled was a last ditch attempt. Fortunately it worked. Really, twice is not many times to be giving up on.

Good luck.

 

[shirleyno2]

Absolutely agree with Touchwood.
We used to cover naturally, [a while ago now mind!!] I wouldn't go back to natural for love nor money, AI all the way!! There are LOTS of things a competeant vet/stud can do to help tricky mares. My JUICY LUCY mare missed last year, and as she's 19yrs young we thought we'd give her one go this season, with my vets new magic drugs she was scanned on Thursday with triplets!! Squeezed one, squeezed another on Saturday and will rescan tomorrow.

But always scan post ovulation and caslick if neccessary.

 

[Ravenwood]

Its interesting that a few of you have happily gone ahead with a caslick for your mares - this was something I was a bit worried about, but perhaps needlessly.

Its so great to be able to talk this through with you all

 

[nijinsky]

Had 2 16yo mares AI'd last year, one maiden, one had foaled before about 10 years ago, both caslicked, both in foal, one has just given me a beautiful filly and waiting for the other one due in 4 weeks. Don't give up, it can work, don't be put of AI'ing (that was my preference anyway) and caslicking really isn't a big deal. I had a lot of problems with my maiden mare who had loads & loads of fluid build up (one of the reasons for caslick) but we got there in the end. Good luck.