Self trimming, rockley farm, supported by my vet

When my vet recommended it to me, I thought he was made! After all I've had shod horses my whole ridden life! how could it work? well its working and I can't believe it! I was always a bit anti barefoot but I'm defo being converted more and more every day! and 4 months on my horses feet are looking amazing, I can't believe it!
 
Hmm - interesting. Is Nic Barker suggesting there isn't a need for scientific evidence?! that's what i get from what is said about Bad Science, doesn't make much sense (surely if it works we need evidence besides anecdotes to prove that it does!). Or have I misunderstood....?

Anyway, interesting reading.
 
Morgan123 said:
Hmm - interesting. Is Nic Barker suggesting there isn't a need for scientific evidence?! that's what i get from what is said about Bad Science, doesn't make much sense (surely if it works we need evidence besides anecdotes to prove that it does!). Or have I misunderstood....?

Anyway, interesting reading.
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The post wasn't written by Nic and neither the vet who did write it, or Nic, are saying there is no need for scientific evidence. I'm baffled how you read it and reached that conclusion, because they are saying completely the opposite!

OP, you have a treasure of a vet. I'm currently helping a friend who has a horse sound after five weeks into a barefoot rehab when her vet and farrier insisted the horse needed the heart bars which he was lame in.
 
ycbm said:
The post wasn't written by Nic and neither the vet who did write it, or Nic, are saying there is no need for scientific evidence. I'm baffled how you read it and reached that conclusion, because they are saying completely the opposite!

OP, you have a treasure of a vet. I'm currently helping a friend who has a horse sound after five weeks into a barefoot rehab when her vet and farrier insisted the horse needed the heart bars which he was lame in.
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I treasure him more than you will ever know! my horse is only 5 and has had heart bars, then raise heel shoes with pads and everything we were trying was making him more and more lame! It was devestating to see, as he was bought as an 18 month old, to be my forever horse! he went from 6/10th lame to not lame within a few days of having his shoes off! and readjusted to not wearing shoes within a few weeks!

After 3 weeks of no shoes I was on him again, only going up the lane, the transformation has been amazing!
 
So pleased for you :)

This is my fifth rehab and it's still so exciting to see their feet change and watch them come sound. This one is a home bred nine year old that the owner was desperate to save. He is trotting straight lines now, and walking circles. He will start trotting circles in a month or so, then by spring he will probably be hunting again. It's a miracle what nature can do if you let it!
 
ycbm said:
So pleased for you :)

This is my fifth rehab and it's still so exciting to see their feet change and watch them come sound. This one is a home bred nine year old that the owner was desperate to save. He is trotting straight lines now, and walking circles. He will start trotting circles in a month or so, then by spring he will probably be hunting again. It's a miracle what nature can do if you let it!
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Wow that sounds amazing! i've been trying to convince a girl at my yard but she doesn't think it will work for her horse because he has arthritis, but I've tried to explain that this is basically my horses issue too!! but she is just leaving him to potter around in the field, which is so sad because she can't find anything else that compares to him ridden wise!! but hopefully if Sam carries on like this, maybe after the winter I can have another go at convincing her! even if she starts just by riding and leading him!!

Mines at a bit of a stand still at the moment because his teeth are coming through and causing a bit of pain but hopefully once the top one is through the gum then he will be a bit more happy work again! fingers x'd!
 
Morgan123 said:
Hmm - interesting. Is Nic Barker suggesting there isn't a need for scientific evidence?! that's what i get from what is said about Bad Science, doesn't make much sense (surely if it works we need evidence besides anecdotes to prove that it does!). Or have I misunderstood....?

Anyway, interesting reading.
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As ycbm says, they are saying the exact opposite. In fact, a significant part of the post is devoted to considering *how* we can get the scientific evidence that will back up the anecdotal evidence already out there.
 
Well maybe I'm being thick but can you enlighten me about how they are suggesting that evidence is obtained? They say:

"One major missing piece in the puzzle at the moment is scientific evidence. Many people who have seen the benefits of 'self-trimming' (so much better than 'barefoot' which is saddled with negative connotations for so many vets and farriers!) with their own eyes will struggle to appreciate why anecdotal evidence is not acceptable to scientifically minded people.
For those that want to understand it better I can recommend 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre which explains the scientific method and interpretation of evidence very well. For others I'd suggest that far from being obstructive those that insist on scientific evidence are the most likely to sweep away the old dogma and bring about the paradigm shift that we would all like to see. "

There is no mention of creating a randomised controlled trial (as Ben Goldacre would suggest) or anything other than the anecodtal evidence - in fact it seems to me to be suggesting that we should just accept the anecdotes?! Please feel free to enlighten me.
 
Morgan123 said:
Well maybe I'm being thick but can you enlighten me about how they are suggesting that evidence is obtained? They say:

"One major missing piece in the puzzle at the moment is scientific evidence. Many people who have seen the benefits of 'self-trimming' (so much better than 'barefoot' which is saddled with negative connotations for so many vets and farriers!) with their own eyes will struggle to appreciate why anecdotal evidence is not acceptable to scientifically minded people.
For those that want to understand it better I can recommend 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre which explains the scientific method and interpretation of evidence very well. For others I'd suggest that far from being obstructive those that insist on scientific evidence are the most likely to sweep away the old dogma and bring about the paradigm shift that we would all like to see. "

There is no mention of creating a randomised controlled trial (as Ben Goldacre would suggest) or anything other than the anecodtal evidence - in fact it seems to me to be suggesting that we should just accept the anecdotes?! Please feel free to enlighten me.
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He says to read Ben Goldacre's book if you want to understand the scientific method which should be used to produce scientific evidence for the efficacy of barefoot rehab. I do not understand how you are reading the paragraph which you have yourself quoted as suggesting that scientific evidence is not necessary. It says the total opposite.
 
Right the bit you have quoted says that some people need proper scientific evidence before they will fully take on the concept of self trimming as beneficial to the horse. Plus that we should do the research and get the evidence, because these very people are the ones that once the evidence exists, will throw their support behind self trimming. Therefore if we want self trimming to become a mainstream option for rehab etc... then getting that evidence is vital.
 
But that's my point - I have read that book and what it's about is assessing real science, and how to do so. Not accepting anecdotes as evidence, but creating real randomised trials so you know what is real evidence for something.
 
No-one is talking about accepting anecdotes as 'science'. They are talking about properly, scientifically researching self trimming.

I don't understand how I can make it clearer for you?
 
Kezzabell2 said:
When my vet recommended it to me, I thought he was made! After all I've had shod horses my whole ridden life! how could it work? well its working and I can't believe it! I was always a bit anti barefoot but I'm defo being converted more and more every day! and 4 months on my horses feet are looking amazing, I can't believe it!
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I was the same, always had shod horses and knew no different, in fact I was pretty anti barefoot until I was in a position that I had a lame horse in shoes and they wanted to put bars on him, but after x rays and speaking to the vets and researching things myself for weeks even months, I decided his feet had no chance of building up the heel area in bar shoes, how could anybody think a horse could? Surely he had to use and work his feet to build up the area? So my journey begain and omg I wish I had done it years ago. I have 5 bare now and would never go back to shoes ( well saying that if in the horses best interest in some way I obviously would after all other routes) I have different boots if need be but hardly need them. In fact I love being bare, no slipping on the roads which is bliss and we out walk all shod horses with our long strides and have to stop down hills as we wait for the shod ones taking small pottery steps and slipping as they go.
On one route there's a stony track and my friend was worried about my horses feet, ( I rolled my eyes) we ended up waiting at the top of the track while hers pussy footed over |o|

OP good luck I'm sure he will continue to go well on his bare foot. Xx
 
Morgan123 said:
"One major missing piece in the puzzle at the moment is scientific evidence. Many people who have seen the benefits of 'self-trimming' (so much better than 'barefoot' which is saddled with negative connotations for so many vets and farriers!) with their own eyes will struggle to appreciate why anecdotal evidence is not acceptable to scientifically minded people.
.
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I see the situation from exactly the opposite POV. I have had barefoot horses for so long now and seen the results that I do struggle to understand why others don't see it. It is not annecdotal, it is tangible, you can see it and feel it. For me it is nothing special it is just normal. That is how feet look, that is how they heal. So from my POV the question is what scientific evidence is there that heartbars/wedges etc etc resolve the situation because if they did then barefoot rehab would not be needed as the horses would be healed with shoeing.

Not meant as a scientific answer just wondering why people using unshod methods have to do so much convincing yet those using wedges etc don't.
 
Morgan123 said:
Accepting anecdotes as evidence is exactly what Ben gold acre describes as bad science!
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I really think you need to re-read it. The vet's point is that, while anecdotes may be enough for some people, there is a real need for scientific evidence if self-trimming is to be taken seriously, hence the need to get more vets and farriers onside.

Morgan123 said:
How are they suggesting that it is researched though?! That's what I am not seeing.
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The post is not about laying out a specific scientific method - Nic is simply re-posting an email that she has been sent by the vet in question. The point is to show that there IS a need for scientific research and also to say that an important step in this research is to work with other vets and farriers. I assumed, with the reference to vets and farriers, that the sort of research they want would relate to MRIs/ X-Rays and performance assessments done by those experts (and if you have not read Nic's blog before, she has long been interested in MRI evidence to back up her findings. The problem is the cost is prohibitive - hence the need to get others vets involved!).
 
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paddy555 said:
I see the situation from exactly the opposite POV. I have had barefoot horses for so long now and seen the results that I do struggle to understand why others don't see it. It is not annecdotal, it is tangible, you can see it and feel it. For me it is nothing special it is just normal. That is how feet look, that is how they heal. So from my POV the question is what scientific evidence is there that heartbars/wedges etc etc resolve the situation because if they did then barefoot rehab would not be needed as the horses would be healed with shoeing.
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Absolutely right Paddy. There is not a shred of scientific evidence for treatment with drugs, shoes, or surgery. I have searched high and low for some. The studies that people have pointed out to me are laughable. Most have numbers below ten. None have control groups. The only large scale study of more than eighty horses shot about a quarter of the worst ones before they even started the study because they were 'too bad to help' and counted as successes horses which were not perceptibly lame to start with.

Yet barefoot is not allowed to use the evidence it has just because it was not obtained through scientific studies.

Just because evidence was gathered anecdotally does not mean it is not still evidence. It is, after all, how drug interactions in patients are often discovered after a drug had been released and how drugs like aspirin were discovered in the first place.
 
Blimey didn't want to start an argument haha just wanted to prove that some vets are truly amazing to consider trying alternative treatment. As had he have not recommended this my horse probably still wouldn't be here now. Or would have been turned away for a year with my 30 yr old mare
 
Well put Paddy, both of mine are barefoot and i can't imagine riding a horse any other way, to me it's normal too, i'm always amazed and saddened that more people won't just get their lame horses shoes off and turn them away for 6 months to see what happens, when i got one of mine i knew he was a mess and lame but i really felt looking at him with a friend that he was worth buying/ rescueing , getting the shoes off, turning him away and seeing what happened, we took it slowly and i can honestly say that apart from a little hock stiffness from too many piaffes he is amazing and agile over any ground. I'm really pleased for you Kezzabell ,what a star your vet is. x
 
Hmm how interesting. I've read it again and I still disagree - to me it's saying (sentence by sentence) there is a lack of evidence, some people struggle to understand why evidence is needed, people should understand 'scientific evidence' better, and (This is the crucial bit): people should stop insisting on evidence because we are sweeping away the paradigm shift.
I don't see anything there that suggests they think that more research and proper trials are a good idea! Must be different interpretations I suppose.

Anyway it's beside the point really isn't it - presumably most people agree that more research is needed on all these things :-). Interesting article thanks for posting op.
 
Morgan123 said:
Hmm how interesting. I've read it again and I still disagree - to me it's saying (sentence by sentence) there is a lack of evidence, some people struggle to understand why evidence is needed, people should understand 'scientific evidence' better, and (This is the crucial bit): people should stop insisting on evidence because we are sweeping away the paradigm shift.
I don't see anything there that suggests they think that more research and proper trials are a good idea! Must be different interpretations I suppose.

Anyway it's beside the point really isn't it - presumably most people agree that more research is needed on all these things :-). Interesting article thanks for posting op.
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Some information on research on Nic's blog http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/rehab-results-and-research-2015-update.html http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/mris-navicular-and-pie-in-sky.html and http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/p/key-blog-posts.html
 
I have finally taken my WB shoes off after much deliberation in the past 3 years. Tried conventional treatments and natural balance shoes but none has maintained soundness.
He is seeming very comfortable barefoot so far. I can only hope he may come sound.
As for bad science I think what this implies is that research us limited and often biased towards specific outcomes to support a researchers theory. I have encountered this throughout my professional life (Nurse),finding much research conflicting and often points out the obvious. Researchers need to publish which is why here is so many articles.
 
My lad has intermittent lameness, usually more pronounced on soft ground and struggles with tight turns.
Have wondered if removing his shoes may help him?
 
Wundahorse said:
I have finally taken my WB shoes off after much deliberation in the past 3 years. Tried conventional treatments and natural balance shoes but none has maintained soundness.
He is seeming very comfortable barefoot so far. I can only hope he may come sound.
As for bad science I think what this implies is that research us limited and often biased towards specific outcomes to support a researchers theory. I have encountered this throughout my professional life (Nurse),finding much research conflicting and often points out the obvious. Researchers need to publish which is why here is so many articles.
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Are you walking him? He's more likely to come sound of you walk him, ime. In hand until he is sound and landing flat or heel first. Roads are great for conditioning. Try not to trim if you can, but get the wear through the walk. Diet is also crucial for many of them.
 
Very likely. Get the diet right too, though. And he may be sore at first, but it doesn't usually last long.
 
Morgan123 said:
Hmm how interesting. I've read it again and I still disagree - to me it's saying (sentence by sentence) there is a lack of evidence, some people struggle to understand why evidence is needed, people should understand 'scientific evidence' better, and (This is the crucial bit): people should stop insisting on evidence because we are sweeping away the paradigm shift.
I don't see anything there that suggests they think that more research and proper trials are a good idea! Must be different interpretations I suppose.

Anyway it's beside the point really isn't it - presumably most people agree that more research is needed on all these things :-). Interesting article thanks for posting op.
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It actually says we need the scientific evidence because then those people who are motivated by scientific evidence will embrace the paradigm shift and advocate it more strongly than those who didn't need the evidence in the first place. Obviously, he could have expressed it more clearly, or you would not have been confused by it.
 
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