Seller refused 5 stage vetting…

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xxonparolexx

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I have been to see a horse twice and absolutely love him, he ticks all the boxes for me and seems perfect in every way for what I want. HOWEVER, the seller had said that she won’t agree to a 5 stage vetting, but is open to a 2 stage. Her reasoning is that said horse is too young and weak (broken last use but not been back in work long and only done light work)

Horse is priced at 6k and is rising 5, is a little green but is walking and cantering away ridden.

Thoughts?! Do I walk away?! 😭
 
You can’t hide much if you are open to a 2 stage and there’s no way I’d let Myka do the testing wind part of a 5 stage if I were selling as recently backed. Maybe some vets are sensible but you can’t control which vet a buyer uses and I’ve been pretty surprised in the past at how hard horses are pushed in a vetting. That’s a good price for a sound, willing horse. Refusing a 5 is not shouting red flags to me. But due a lot of due diligence on the seller.
 
I would discuss with the seller but also be very careful in my choice of vet and explain the reason for a 2 stage rather than 5 stage vetting. Some vets now require a disclaimer to be signed if only a 2 stage.
 
I would ask your vet for a chat and see what their thoughts are. They can find out lots from a 2 stage, I think they can also take bloods. I would want my vet to see a backed horse ridden though to assess suitability for me. Also the cynic in me thinks the horse is priced strategically to get potential buyers that can afford to risk not getting horses vetted. You will need a vetting for insurance if valued £5K or over anyway.
 
Insurance is a good point, but also it’s not unreasonable to do a 5 stage on a backed horse.
I’d not be told by an owner that’s it not allowed. But I would try and discuss their concerns and if there is a way to do it but taking into consideration their concerns then I would consider that, depending on what part of the 5 stage was to be modified/omitted.
 
I think a sensible vet could accommodate the age of the horse in a 5 stage. If there are certain bits the seller doesn't want the horse to do (and the vet agrees they are age related) then perhaps a 4.5 stage vetting.

If you are looking for insurance you will need a vets cert. Perhaps use that as the excuse for the seller.

If they still refuse to be pragmatic then I would run away - not just walk.
 
Unless it's changed, 2 stage is fine for up to 10k. And no vetting fine for up to 5k. I did not vet Myka as she'd had a vetting and passed. But buyer walked away. Buyer let me see the report which I was happy to accept as it was only a few days previously. But for insurance purposes I did not have a vetting cert and they were fine with it.

I agree a refusal to allow things might be a red flag but equally sellers can decide they aren't happy with elements of what potential buyers want. I would not allow a strangles blood test for example. That would mean losing some sales but hey ho.

Some genuinely are just protecting their horse from what they consider overly risk averse vettings on an immature horse. I don't know if it's true (I'd love to hear from a vet) but my impression is vettings are getting harder and harder to pass. Years ago my own vet said he preferred horses to fail as there was never any come back from failing a horse, whereas passing one that goes on to have an issue can cause endless grief. Since then I have felt very jaded about vettings and a bit uncomfortable about how much a horse is expected to do. Flexions held for too long, tight circles on inappopriate ground, too much canter for the wind test etc.

When I vet I tell the vet I want a pragmatic vetting to save me from buying obvious issues. But some buyers are the opposite - they want every tiny thing flagged and some walk away even when the horse passes. The issue really is how much you trust the seller and how much you like the horse. For a nice, well priced horse she may believe she can sell to someone happy to accept a 2 stage and just decide she's not willing to put her horse through a 5 stage. Totally up to her. And totally up to a buyer to walk away. But equally she might know or suspect a problem that would emerge in a 5 stage and be hiding what she believes could be an issue. As others have said, ask her why, have a frank discussion and see if you can compromise. If she won't give a clear reason and just rants on about vettings being a wate of time anyway, then walk away.
 
In terms of checking soundness etc - you could have an official 2 stage and some extra bits like flexions for your own peace of mind. Or you can walk away and look elsewhere. It is the seller’s choice who they sell to and what they allow. Just as it is yours to go and look elsewhere.

I have only ever bought with a vetting once. The vet (experienced, well recommended) missed something huge that impacted her for the rest of her life.
 
When I bought Standie in October, he was living approx. 1000 metres up a Welsh mountain, in a home with no arena or indeed totally flat surface and was a unfit ex harness racing pacer, whose only rider was the older owner who was awaiting a 2nd hip op! I discussed the limitations with the vet who was booked to do the vetting and the owners and we came to the decision that she would do as much of the vetting as was possible within the limitations, so we ended up with somewhere between a 2 and 5 stage vetting and I paid accordingly. His value was <3K though.
Edited to add; you could say that given his relatively low value I was daft to even have had a vetting, but its not just the original outlay is it really, its the monthly costs, time, sacrifice and emotional outlay that's the real expense and I wanted him for low level endurance so needed to know his heartrate, respiratory system was ok and that he was basically sound.
 
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Mine was 4, recently backed, in light work and he had a 5 stage without issue. I did tell the (Irish) vet that I wanted anything terrible flagged but didn't want to go on a fault finding mission though. I specifically said that I didn't want him beasted.

If I really liked the horse, I would speak to the owner and say that I would do the 2 stage vetting but also wanted the vet to see the horse ridden to assess paces. I would also want to then wait and have a second trot up afterwards to make sure nothing had stiffened up after work.

I have always had a pragmatic vetting apart from one horse who had the works, including foot X rays. I did this as he was 9, had done a fair bit and his feet looked very peculiar. He passed with flying colours but dropped dead the next day, half an hour after arrival. Heart attack. Bloods were normal at the vetting.

I actually suspect the electrical heart attack was brought on by working hard in 32 degrees, on a hillside, then being sedated for X rays, then travel the next day. I would not choose to push a horse so far again! I was not actually present for the vetting that day. I would not have allowed such a rigorous workout on a horse I was selling. I once refused trotting on a hard surface on the lunge due to safety concerns. It was slippery concrete!!! The horse still passed, the cert just stated that me missed that part of the exam as there were no suitable areas to do the exam.

If the horse is in work but the owner refuses to ride in front of the vet, then have a further trot up after rest, then I would walk away.
 
I had a 5 stage vetting done on a recently backed 5yo. The horse behaved badly in the ridden stage which it hadn't at all when I'd viewed twice. Xray's showed it had kissing spines which explained the behaviour. The vet will take into account the fitness level of the horse for the exercise part and it's also done to check the heart. I don't see why the horse can't canter for a vet if it can canter under saddle. Seeing the horse ridden, even if only gently, when it also has to pass a blood test sadly is important these days.
 
Gosh Red you've added another reason for why vettings are a double eged sword! I tried to refuse to let a pony be trotted on a slippery hard surface but buyer threw a strop, vet said he'd stop the vetting and state I refused to continue, I saw FB abuse in my future! So I figured syrely vets know what is and os not ok, and agreed. Pony slipped. Vetting then ended and vet suggested I remove shoes and try again next week. Buyer walked away anyway and pony passed a few weeks later with a different vet and buyer.

Re behaving badly under saddle - part of the reason I would refuse to ride Myka for a 5 stage wind test is because we are not at that point in her training and my expectations of her are guided by what is right for her on any given day. I can imagine she might down tools and behave uncharacteristically if I suddenly changed all the rules and rode her on someone else's agenda!

Vet's DO NOT always take the horse's needs into account. They should, but they are working for the buyer not the seller or the horse. One vet I'll mever let near my horses ever again ran car keys dwn the horses back then failed her for flinching. New buyer new vet = no back issues at all. Still in touch with those buyers and never ever had a back issue.
 
If i was buying a ridden horse i would want feet, back, neck hock x rays and take blood

I want to look in mouth, state of teeth see it ridden in w t c, and see it load

And get vet to do general exam, if it was high performance would consider ecg

Id spend time with it being shown to me and the vet and would not take my eyes ftom it during the process

Once had ridden vetted by a top vet, on the lunge it completely locked its stifle then fixed itself, but vet did not comment, he was looking the other way!
 
Marigold4 said:
Ask which bits of the 5 stage seller thinks are not suitable? If it's just the getting the horse puffed in a fast canter, then I'd be fine with that, but I'd want the vet to see the horse ridden in walk trot canter to assess if lame.
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The seller said that she doesn't want the horse lunged on a tight circle on hard ground, and that she feels the horse is too weak to endure a 5 stage. The horse was backed last year, and has been in work since November. It was happily riding away in the arena in walk, trot and canter.
 
Lunging on hard and soft surface is usually part of the 2 stage. The third stage is strenuous exercise typically ridden, my vet listens to the heart again, then rest, then reassess for lameness. If you have the vetting done at a reasonably large vet practice they usually have a proper surface for the lunging. The hard surface is not normally concrete but some sort of grit which is not as hard and also not slippy.
 
When I bought my unbroken 3 year old I had a 2 stage vetting. This didn't involve any lunging as horse didn't know how to lunge.
When I bought my just backed 4 year old (sat on 2 weeks) I had a five stage. I went to watch the vetting, done by a vet I know well and trust. He walked, trotted and cantered (the canter involved a bit of bunny hopping!) but we didn't worry about getting him too tired. We also couldn't do hind leg flexions as he wouldn't pick up his hind feet. Vet noted that he was very 'green' on the certificate. Never caused any insurance issues.
 
When my last horse was vetted at 5, the seller wasn't confident riding in an open space and wanted him lunged for the strenuous test. Vet didn't want that much lunging on a young horse, hopped on himself and took him for a canter round the field with his assistant checking vitals when he came back.

Re the differences, some vets lunge on a 2 stage, not just trot up in a straight line so that may not suit the seller either. It doesn't include riding and that would worry me as the horse may show issues under saddle which it wouldn't otherwise.

As said I would try to come to a compromise where things are excluded however When my other horse had lameness issues it only showed when lunged on hard ground and he may have passed a vetting without it..
 
xxonparolexx said:
The seller said that she doesn't want the horse lunged on a tight circle on hard ground, and that she feels the horse is too weak to endure a 5 stage. The horse was backed last year, and has been in work since November. It was happily riding away in the arena in walk, trot and canter.
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A 5 stage for a young horse isn't endurance - if you and the seller are both there you could agree to stop if he starts to struggle with any aspect.

If there is no room for compromise / a middle ground with some aspects of 5 stage done / some not done and if the horse has been happily in work for 4 months and still too weak to do basic walk, trot and canter to cover most aspects of a vetting then I would walk away sadly.
 
criso said:
When my last horse was vetted at 5, the seller wasn't confident riding in an open space and wanted him lunged for the strenuous test. Vet didn't want that much lunging on a young horse, hopped on himself and took him for a canter round the field with his assistant checking vitals when he came back.

Re the differences, some vets lunge on a 2 stage, not just trot up in a straight line so that may not suit the seller either. It doesn't include riding and that would worry me as the horse may show issues under saddle which it wouldn't otherwise.

As said I would try to come to a compromise where things are excluded however When my other horse had lameness issues it only showed when lunged on hard ground and he may have passed a vetting without it..
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I agree about usefulness of lunging on a hard surface. I think lunged briefly on a hard surface will not do the horse any harm and it's not a test I would want to miss out. If the horse has any kind of lameness brewing, it will show up there. I have backed and sold 3 x young horses and have always agreed to this part of the test. Obviously, if you trotted your young horse several times a week on a tight circle and a hard surface it would do some harm, but as a one off?
 
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