selling horses - legal side

Firehorse

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i'm selling my mare and its a first for me. i have an interesed person, who has been truthfully told of her quirks etc. she's not the easiest of ponies, being very mareish, spooky and doesnt hack alone. these points didnt seem to concern the woman.

i would just like to know of my legal obligations etc. i cant offer a trial period as once she's gone, my new pony will be moving in, but i have told the woman she is welcome to come back as many times as she likes to try her out, as she lives locally. my concern is that once the woman has bought her, if she has problems with her and wishes to return her, would i have to take her back? i wouldnt be able to have 2 horses at my yard and couldnt affford to keep 2.
 

AmyMay

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As a private buyer - once she's sold, she's sold.

Don't allow her to try her as often as she likes. By all means give her the opportunity of trying her a 'couple' of times. But then she must make a decision.
 

Box_Of_Frogs

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I'm pretty sure that as a private person selling, rather than a dealer, it's buyer beware. So as long as you have correctly and honestly described your horse and have hidden nothing, then the buyer would have no come-back. Even so, I'd draw up a receipt that includes all your ponio's known quirks and you both sign it.

The only thing to be aware of is that if the new owners don't get on with your ponio and contact you in say a fortnight to refund their money, when you say no (as per sale receipt) you will not know what might happen to your old friend.
 

Firehorse

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ok, thanks. i just wanted to be as honest with her as poss and give her the opportunity to see my pony at her best and worst! she's not easy at all! She'd be living near by anyway, so i can go and see her and if necessary i cud go and help them with her while she settles in.....or is that not a good idea?
 

AmyMay

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[ QUOTE ]
ok, thanks. i just wanted to be as honest with her as poss and give her the opportunity to see my pony at her best and worst! she's not easy at all! She'd be living near by anyway, so i can go and see her and if necessary i cud go and help them with her while she settles in.....or is that not a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

How experienced is the person that is buying this horse??
 

Patches

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Sorry AmyMay but that's not the case.

My friend sold a mare a few years ago and after not wishing to take her back, due to the exact same reasons as the OP, she was taken to the small claims court where she lost the case and had to pay costs, take the pony back, refund the full amount plus expenses incurred by the new owner since she'd bought her.

New owner lied through her teeth in court and denounced all of the quirks she was told about with this mare.....even though they were in black and white on all of the sales adverts for her. Lost the case as new owner said she wouldn't hack alone......even though judge accepted she had hacked alone with previous owner. Basically, he was saying that when selling you have to be able to assess how a horse will adapt with a new owner! Madness. My friend collected said horse and hacked her away from the "new owners" yard up the road on her own......when she'd clearly not been ridden in a long time. She certainly won the moral victory, even if she lost in court.

It really is a legal minefield and I absolutely dread the idea of selling any now. My friend went through hell and back and the experience traumatised her at an already stressful time as she'd lost her father during the middle of it all.

I felt so sorry for her. Everyone said she stood no chance of losing, solicitors etc. It was such a shock defeat. The main reason my friend lost her case was because this woman lied about her own ability, and the ability of her children when trying out the horse. She'd made a mistake in buying the horse, I would assume, but didn't want to admit it, so decided to make my friend out to be a liar.....even though there was no evidence that she was.
 

Firehorse

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its her first pony since child hood. she's been riding regularly at the school attached to the livery yard where she wud keep her. she would have lessons on my pony, as wud her duaghters and she would hack out with friends and with the school groups.
 

AmyMay

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Thanks Patches. Yes, I had forgotten that you had posted about this when it was going on. And stand corrected.
 

AmyMay

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[ QUOTE ]
its her first pony since child hood. she's been riding regularly at the school attached to the livery yard where she wud keep her. she would have lessons on my pony, as wud her duaghters and she would hack out with friends and with the school groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doens't sound as if your pony is in any way suitable for this woman - from the description of it. And I would think carefully about selling it to her.
 

Patches

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[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Patches. Yes, I had forgotten that you had posted about this when it was going on. And stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was shocking. I was there in court and to hear this woman bleating on was draw dropping!

I have a feeling that had it gone to appeal my friend stood a very good chance of winning, as she could've brought in more expert witnesses. However, it cost the other woman £200 to get it to court in the first instance, but it was over £800 to set up the appeal....money my friend, at the time, didn't want to risk on top of everything else she'd already incurred.

I know this is quite possibly a rare case, but it just goes to show that buyer beware stands for nothing in some instances, especially when the "opposition" is willing to perjure themselves in the chamber....with false witness statements etc etc (which we proved were false).

After her experience, my advice would always be to take the pony/horse back where possible and attempt to sell again.
 

Firehorse

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gosh thats awful patches. i'm terrified of selling, but i've had to. she's not the pony for us and i've given her a year of hard work and heartbreak. i've told the woman she wont hack alone (altho i have on occassions), shes been told she is unpredictable, etc etc. she said she wouldnt need to hack alone and is used to riding scaredy cats (as she put it). i've not covered anything up and wudnt. she knows one of the other owners on my yard, who wud tell her the probs i've had anyway.

thats why i wanted to find out the legal stuff. my pony had been in a riding school before and i think thats what shes used to and also needs. she is insecure when there are no horses near her and as my place is only small, its not suited to her. i think she wud settle in on a big busy yard very quickly. but thats not to say she wont try to test the new owners, like any pony wud!


its all so scarey!
 

Fahrenheit

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I would write 'the quirks' in the description of the horse on the receipt for the purchase and have 2 copies and both vendor and purchaser sign both copies and keep a copy each.

For example:

Recieved with thanks £xxxx in full payment of one mare known as xxxxx, registered xxxx.....

......also known to be mareish, spook and not to hack out alone.
 

Patches

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This is the problem. This woman wanted my friend to take the pony back after 36 hours. She hadn't given her the chance to settle. My friend asked her to give the pony some time to adjust, she agreed to do this. Clearly, however, the woman's mind was made up.

The next time she called my friend her father had sadly died suddenly that morning. She was bereft (as obviously you'd esxpect) and told the woman she couldn't think about anything at that moment in time.....which I don't think was an unfair reaction on the part of my grief stricken, totally in shock, friend.

The woman then went ahead and filed a claim with the small claims court. We all stood up for my friend, I'd had the horse here on livery for quite some time and knew her well. The judge wasn't interested in our statements and actually went as far as to say the only statement he believed was from the woman's best friend. I was rather incensed that he was implying I was lying!

It's a minefield. Your mare sounds similar to my friends. She was a lovely mare but did have some quirks. Quirks that were fine when worked around, as this woman knew only too well.
 

Patches

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Just another thought....if you had absolutely no doubts that the mare would be suitable for this woman, I suspect you'd not have felt the need to make the post.

Try to be patient....there is someone out there for your mare, be it this woman or someone else, who will be happy to own her.
 

RunToEarth

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My ex OH sold a 15K grade B to a teenager to work her through the heights with, 4years ago.
It fell at its 6th outing at fox level ( was capable of much greater and it WAS a rider error).
The family then sued as "unfit for purpose sold for".
Four years on it was settled three months ago- the family won and my ex had to pay expences, refund and take on a horse that they had buggered up and wouldn't leave the ground again, pretty useless considering he owns an SJ yard.
Just goes to show that absolutely nothing is safe out there, if I were selling now I would make sure I had a water tight contract.
 

Patches

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[ QUOTE ]
Jesus Patches what a story.

Just shows how bad it is when people think they are better riders than they really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the woman was fine on her but didn't want to bring her children to ride the pony as she was a surprise (I think) but I'm sure she definitely judged that she was fine for them, given that she'd ridden her and knew what levels they were at.

The woman clearly felt there was no need to be concerned about said mare as she tried her out, deciding there was no need to even bother wearing a hat.

She was offered the chance to hack the pony up the road, but said she didn't want to as she was told the pony didn't care for heavy traffic and wouldn't be riding her on the road anyway as she had access to a bridleway from the field.

Funny how all of that was lost in translation, to speak, when the case came to court.

I wonder if there would be any benefit to videoing someone trying out your horse......at least you can show that as evidence in court, if need be.

I think if you have a long list of quirks and potential problems outlined in a receipt you want signing, it might make any prospective new owner wonder why you felt the need to cover your back. Could make them nervous.
 

AmyMay

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[ QUOTE ]
Just another thought....if you had absolutely no doubts that the mare would be suitable for this woman, I suspect you'd not have felt the need to make the post.

Try to be patient....there is someone out there for your mare, be it this woman or someone else, who will be happy to own her.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my gut feeling too reading the post.
 

Firehorse

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its jst as she's not a straightfwd pony, i'm a little worried about selling her to anyone! i hve told everyone the truth about her, almost to the point of trying to put them people off! thinking that if they still come back, then they know what they are taking on. i know every pony has its little quirks etc, its jst i guess, i know this mare inside out and anyone else who doesnt, it cud take a while for them to get settled with her, as it did me when i first got her. but then she was sold to me under false pretenses anyway.
 

Mbronze

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To be honest is any horse really straight forward!! Selling and buying horse are both great risks which some people take seriously like you do breezy75.
I understand your pony isn't straight forward, but neither is mine and if i were to sell her i would let them know warts and all but i know the good she can do which i think makes up for the bad bits.
 
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