Sending your horse for surgery, is it worth it?

[be positive]

2 very different experiences, to balance out the colic surgery thread.

I have had a successful experience with colic surgery, not sending the horse in at the time was never considered as he did not present as a normal colic, no sign of impaction or twisted gut, the vet after 24 hours treating him was of the opinion it may be acute grass sickness so he was sent off for treatment, on examination it was found to be an intussusception, he was operated on, came through well, then had a build up of fluid so underwent a second op, so 2 GAs in 48hours, he then made good progress and came home.
In hindsight maybe it was not something to put a horse through but once they are in the hands on the vets you feel somewhat powerless and a bit out of the loop, at that time, over 25 years ago, owners were discouraged from visiting critically ill horses so we relied on daily phone updates, anyway he came home looking poor but otherwise fine, he had a good appetite, had no problems with box rest, enjoyed his numerous walks out for grass each day, made a complete recovery and led a normal active life for the next 12 years, he did have a few minor colics and then one major colic when it was obvious something catastrophic had happened so I called it a day.

My more recent experience with a horse having surgery was far less satisfactory, what should have been a relatively minor op, standing, ended up with a seriously injured horse, badly traumatised taking many months to recover, what happened has never been explained, it seems that they used a chifney to lead him about and when doing the unnecessary trot ups, flexion tests and nerve blocks, he had already had a clear diagnosis and I had been told he was not having anything other than a scan and then the op, so what should have been a simple surgical procedure ended up with a horse returning unable to drink for 2 months, his whole face swollen, his mouth lacerated and bruised inside, extremely distressed and he also started cribbing, he had GG as ulcers were suspected, the cribbing soon stopped, this is a very condensed version of what happened but has had an effect on what I would now do with my horses if they require inpatient treatment .

His leg healed well but mentally he is still not the horse he was, I had his jaw xrayed 18 months later and it showed an area of "trauma" in other words fractures that had healed, following this experience I will never let a horse of mine go away, he is the only one insured but if treatment cannot be done here he will be pts rather than let him go anywhere as I think the stress would tip him over the edge and it would not be fair to him, I let him down once by leaving him, it will not happen again.

 

[rara007]

We've always had geldings (some that'd have been done standing some that'd have been GA) and for our set up that is very much worth it. The other surgery we've had was to remove a tooth from the skull by the base of the ear of a foal- it was constantly abscessing so well worth it for him. He was (and now is as an adult) an otherwise perfectly healthy foal- I'm sure most would have gone for the surgery had he been theirs...
Also had one go for colic surgery, no problems related to that but the colic did recurr 2 years later and he was PTS.

Without hesitation I'd have more gelded, any cryptorchids sorted (for their health as much as their behaviour) and any orthopaedic or medical cases I'd consider on an individual basis (ovarian tumours, sarcoid or melanoma (or other skin lump) removal would be in my OK list). Most sinus and tooth issues I'd get sorted too.

 

[Equi]

It depends on the surgery for me. Anything that involved going into their guts would be a no for me. I've never had any experiences in gelding so i can't comment on that.

 

[tubby1]

I am genuinely surprised that so many people are against surgical intervention. My daughters pony had colic in April he is 16, never had colic before and has Cushings. Putting him through surgery was a no brainer for me. He was found to have 2 impactions and a strangulating lymphoma. He had 8 feet of bowel removed. His recovery has been very unremarkable and he is currently coming back into work. Even if something goes wrong now I wouldn't regret the decision. My own horse is currently on box rest after having her splint bone removed. Again I didn't hesitate the risks with a ga were explained as she couldn't have the surgery standing. We have had 2 surgeries in year and don't regret either .

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would take each case on its merits for minor surgery but would be very unlikely to send anything at all for major surgery. I certainly wouldn't put an animal with multiple health issues through a GA.
My 4 yr old cob had a sarcoid removed from her face a few weeks ago under sedation & local anaesthetic. If vet had said she needed to go to horsepital for some reason, I probably would have taken her. The sarcoid certainly couldn't stay where it was. BUT the reason I use that vet is that I know he wouln't put any of the animals through something that he didn't think had an extremely good prognosis.

 

[zaminda]

I know of several horses who have had surgery. One, who had KS surgery, this horse was so uncomfortable she couldn't even roll. The surgery was successful, and she has had 13 more years of happy riding, and is still going. She was 12 at the time at the time of the surgery.
Another horse has now had surgery twice. He has had a knee pinned back together, and has now had something done to the windgall/tendon behind, and is currently on box rest. The first surgery was a success, we shall see about the second.
The third horse had chips removed from a fetlock joint, it was successful, he was 14 at the time.
Only the first horse was insured, but the owner felt the surgery was worth it, and so it has proved.
Surgical intervention should be taken on a case by case basis. Some horses may not cope with it, but in my experience, it is not to be written off without thought. You do however need to trust the people whose care you are leaving your horse in, I have met many of the assistants at my vet, as I tend to go to them for a work up, so I know how they are with them. They also take heed of what you say in regards to your horses behaviour, which I don't think they always did.

 

[Barnacle]

I would use the same criteria to decide whether a horse should undergo surgery as I would to decide for myself or any of my pets. If I am suffering with something either painful or life-threatening, surgery is a go. If it's something painful/life-threatening that can be operated on but at high risk, I might think about it some more. If it's definitely terminal, surgery for sure... And so forth. For me, money isn't part of the equation (not because I'm loaded - I sure as hell am not! - but because I would never put myself in a position where I had financial responsibility for an animal where I could not afford the worst-case scenario).

I am shocked at the treatment of that second horse though be positive! I wonder how that came about... My experience with the local vet is very good but then I also work there so I know what they are 'about' and trust them.

 

[ycbm]

I have had several horses operated on and each time I insist on being present when anything is done with the horse, outside the door of the operating room if necessary, for exactly the reasons you describe Be Positive. I have to say that I am made to feel very much a nuisance, but it's my horse and I want to be there to make decisions when necessary.

I've heard such dreadful and ridiculous things happening with horses left at a vet hospital, especially if they are insured. My nearest teaching hospital did a gamma ray scinitgraph for 1200 quid on my friend's horsebefore they nerve blocked the back half of the front foot the horse was lame on. It never needed a scintigraph at all.

 

[be positive]

I have had several horses operated on and each time I insist on being present when anything is done with the horse, outside the door of the operating room if necessary, for exactly the reasons you describe Be Positive. I have to say that I am made to feel very much a nuisance, but it's my horse and I want to be there to make decisions when necessary.

I've heard such dreadful and ridiculous things happening with horses left at a vet hospital, especially if they are insured. My nearest teaching hospital did a gamma ray scinitgraph for 1200 quid on my friend's horsebefore they nerve blocked the back half of the front foot the horse was lame on. It never needed a scintigraph at all.

We live and learn, unfortunately the horse suffered because although my instinct was to stay I was expecting him and was told he would be going straight in for the MRI to confirm the diagnosis and clarify exactly what the op required, which meant him being sedated and standing in the MRI room for most of the morning, something I felt would cause no problems, I had mildly sedated him for the journey as well as doubled his bute to keep him comfy, they clearly did not want anyone hanging about and with my lorry causing a bit of a jam in the parking area I felt it best to go home and wait to hear how the op went, expecting to collect him the following day.

You can imagine my reaction when I heard later that day that instead of doing the planned MRI immediately they had taken it upon themselves to do a full workup, this was done despite me being clearly told it was not required, they did not consider the fact that he was on 4 bute a day or that he had been given sedalin a few hours earlier may have given a false result, which we eventually found out it had as he did also have a SI injury that went unnoticed/ untreated so the workup was at best a waste of time and money at worst it caused him immense suffering and injury as well as delaying the proper treatment for the SI.

I have complained and got nowhere, they changed their story, initially they said "he was in a chifney, twitched and required a leg held up in order to nerve block, the blocks were difficult due to the extensive swelling", fair enough he was in a lot of pain, you could barely touch the area that was injured, but once I got serious they changed the story to "he was restrained in a headcollar only" a cover up if ever there was one, I would have been unhappy with the injuries to his mouth but less so if I felt they had accepted that they may have been a bit rough with him, he is not easy, was very upset by the pain and was extremely fractious after 6 weeks box rest. I still cannot believe that the cut did not bleed extensively when it happened, mouth injuries usually bleed, knowing him he would have been chucking his head about, if they saw the blood and did nothing, said nothing that makes me question the "care" they take in general, the cut was down to the bone, over a week later you could still see the bone when he was examined by my vet and dentist here.

His next visit for treatment, the SI scan and injections, was to my new vets, they were great, he arrived, went in and was sedated before he became stressed, treatment was done and he came home with me having held him throughout, he as I said earlier will never be left anywhere again, he still lacks trust 21/2 years later but it is gradually coming back, my trust in vets may take longer than his!!!

 

[ycbm]

Your experience was outrageous, I'm cross on your behalf! I have to admit that my initial motivation was so that they could not run up my bill, it was only after the first one that I decided I needed to be there for the horse too.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It would depend upon what surgery was needed as to whether I would put the horse through it or not. Colic no. Bone chips, leg pinning, joint flushes etc. then yes, probably depending on the horse. I have dealt with horses that have had all sorts of ops done as needs be in racing so I am probably more open than normal people with normal horses.

Having said that if Jeff had done his heart in when I owned him he certainly wouldn't have been sent for surgery! To this day I still don't know how he survived!

 

[YasandCrystal]

I too am cross about be positives experience. It is outrageous that the poor horse ended up with an injury like that. I have recently had some poor experiences with vets. One being the suggestion of taking home my poor mare who had foaled 24 hrs earlier leaving her dying foal to be treated by the vets. Luckily we insisted this was just so wrong and cruel and that the vet should sedate her as necessary to keep her calm whilst witnessing her foal being treated. Her foal sadly passed away, but at least she could stay with him and have time to accept his passing. We couldn't believe how thoughtless the vets were to the wellbeing of the mare.
The other extreme of experience at Newmarket was the handling of my then very aggressive and dangerous WB. The staff were so professional and confident with no sign of a chiffney thank God. My horse was sedated as necessary when he became too much to handle.
A friend recently sent her 21yr old pony for colic surgery. The result was very positive with no gut resection as the blockage was massaged out. The pony has recovered remarkably well and is back being ridden months later.
I have sadly had a horse pts with colic. I didn't consider surgery as an option for me.

 

[be positive]

YandC I am sorry to hear about your foal, the vets treating him obviously had no thought other than for their own ease of handling the poor little chap, surely he needed his mum there as much as she needed to be with him, if he had pulled through and been able to come home if she had been separated during his time there I expect she may well have rejected him and given you a whole new issue to deal with, I suspect they sometimes really cannot see what is in front of them, logic and sensitivity is something owners seem to have that is not a really a prerequisite of being a vet.

The practice my horse went to uses chifneys as standard on every horse when it comes out of it's stable, something I was not aware of before he went, I can see why but for my horse with a very sensitive mouth and narrow bars the possibility of it causing damage is too great, he only wears a nathe or happy mouth at home as his mouth has always been vulnerable and extremely sensitive, if I had known they always used a bit I would have left his own but that was not allowed.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Thanks be positive the poor mare was so distraught. Sad tale alround, maiden mare too sore at first to let foal feed, first vet suggested doing nothing after failing to get foal to suckle and see if nature would kick in. By the time mare was finally stripped and foal tube fed 8 hours had elapsed. She started letting him feed late that night we stripped and bottle fed meanwhile. All seemed great but he got septus likely due to fpc and went downhill so fast. Devastating after 11 months of excited expectation and 3 weeks of waking every 3 hours to catch her labour.

I hate chiffneys. The thin rope pressure hatters are just as effective without the risk of injury in my opinion. I have used an Indian twitch as a last resort.

Sorry for disrupting theme of thread.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I do hope you did not pay for any treatment that you hadn't authorised be positive?

 

[eggs]

I've had horses operated on in the past at other places but the last couple of times have been at Newmarket Equine Clonic - one colic, one for a broken jaw and one for bone chips. Could not have been happier with the level of care. And they kept me fully informed. All recovered and back out competing.

 

[be positive]

I do hope you did not pay for any treatment that you hadn't authorised be positive?

Interesting point, it seems that the standard form signed for the MRI covered anything they consider needs doing, you need to read the small print, which I had and why I specifically asked about him having a workup before he went in, having been told he would not have one the form was duly signed but as I had not actually put in writing what was not being done they could pretty much do as they wanted, they knew the insurance limit.
The workup, trot up, 5/10ths lame behind, flexion test made him worse!, nerve block 1, trot still 5/10ths lame flexion still off the scale, nerve block 2 and 3 much the same result, number 4 to the fractured splint area he was much improved so they now knew what the problem was, so did xrays, ultrasound and surprise surprise they decided that he had a fractured splint bone that was badly displaced and surrounded by fibrous tissue, we already knew that!!
Just to confirm they did the MRI, they were trying to prove there was damage to his suspensory ligament, which they failed to do and even if they had the treatment would have been no different but it was a good way of increasing their income to the tune of £2k, the workup alone was about £800 , the cost of MRI £1200, the surgery less than £1k.
The fact the workup was done when he was on so much bute has never been explained, they probably didn't even read the notes before starting and certainly had no understanding of how the injury actually happened or why the fracture had displaced, this was due to the original attending vet refusing to xray for 5 weeks as there was "no possibility of fracture", the damage was considered by her to be in the foot, it was only when I really pushed she finally xrayed but by then it had moved as we had been walking him out each day, she actually stood in my yard and suggested I was stupid for wanting the xrays done, huffed and puffed getting set up then had to eat her words, got sacked at the first opportunity and never set foot in my yard again, I changed practice a few months later as they were more interested in covering her, and the referral practices, back than trying to sort out the damage done by her negligence and subsequent lies to everyone and their rough handling while he was in their care.

 

[ycbm]

They flexion tested a horse which was already five tenths lame? And did an MRI on a horse with an obvious injury to the splint bone on the lame leg?

I think we need the name of this hospital so we can all avoid it!

 

[be positive]

They flexion tested a horse which was already five tenths lame? And did an MRI on a horse with an obvious injury to the splint bone on the lame leg?

I think we need the name of this hospital so we can all avoid it!

Yes they flexion tested him before they blocked and after each nerve block, it is all in the notes, I think it is when he got his mouth so badly injured as he was in immense pain, I could barely pick his foot out, he would have been trying to move away from them and probably held strongly in order for the leg to be held up forcefully, poor boy must have been in agony.
When I complained i said it was an invasive and painful procedure, they replied that it was not invasive or painful, I guess they see things very differently to me.
The MRI is what he was originally referred for as the vet this end thought the damage was ligaments in the foot, she put the huge fetlock area down to bruising, it was done as they wanted to be absolutely sure there was no suspensory damage, even if there had been it would have been minor and treatment would have been the same so it was really just to tick a box and as it was authorised before the xrays here found the fracture they just carried on because they could!


It is not in your area so your horses are safe, I am happy to pm anyone in the south who wants to know, I certainly would not recommend anyone to let a horse go there although there are many people who will have had a far better experience, the fact that they lied, denied he even had a chifney or twitch used, when challenged and got away with it because they have no need to account for their actions to anyone other than their own governing body means unless the owner can actually prove negligence, very hard to do when the only witness is the horse, then they will get away with it.

The vet at this end also lied, she denied a whole conversation took place, as it was between just the two of us I could not prove it had, she changed her statement and the RCVS believed her version it is not in their interests to look too deeply into misconduct, it is a closed shop where they close ranks and if you dare to challenge them, which I did, they back each other up and it is impossible to prove otherwise, it did rattle them though, I hope being asked questions by the RCVS at least makes both practices look at how they operate although it probably just means there will be even more small print in the paperwork to cover themselves.