Serious aggression in horse

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The wife

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Serious aggression in 5yr old Homebred. What do you do?

Bit of background...

He has always been exceptionally aggressive at meal times, even as a youngster, in fact, in general he is a bad tempered animal with a poor attitude towards humans.

Ridden behaviour was getting very bad, scoped for ulcers to find a couple grade 3 and a few smaller ones. Under treatment at the moment. Horse has now got to the point where you can barely go into the field with it to catch it. Changing rug this morning he tried to have me while actually caught - Ears flat back, reared and lunged at me. When you reprimand him, a growl, he will try and kick you. Sister could not catch him yesterday as he was doing the same, after a nicely, nicely approach and standing my ground I eventually managed to catch him - standing your ground with a big horse coming at you for the record is pretty intimidating! This is a horse who will come over the fence at you whether food is involved or not yet is fine with other horses being next to him (in next field) while eating.

He has never been abused, never starved and has had everything done very correctly. His ground work is excellent, attentive and polite and not bargy in the slightest. Ridden behaviour is working progress and at times but I can put that down to his ulcers at the moment as they are still under treatment.

So what do you do and how do you approach it? I am a very confident person while handling horses from the ground and not alot puts me off but this morning while down there on my own at 6.30 it did make me think 'what if' and how long before someone found me?

I am not one for messing with horses while they are eating anyway. Even in the stable feeds are put in before the horses are put to bed but this is getting silly and dangerous now to not even be able to catch him without him trying to kill you.
 
It's most often a pain response - what does your vet say about the ulcer treatment? Difficult with ulcers but ask your vet about a trial on some good pain relief, to rule it out? And then I would be getting lots and lots of good in hand groundwork done to re-establish a relationship based on trust and respect.
 
The ulcers will be hurting all the time including in the field and the pain may be exacerbated by eating so I'd be cutting him some slack until the ulcers are cured. In fact, I think you will know when treatment is working when his attitude improves.
I wouldn't bother with a rug, and I'd leave him in the field avoiding handling while treating.
Good luck.
 
Bluntly I would wait to the end of the ulcer treatment and if he's not improved I would have him PTS .
Ulcers in horses like this are IMO almost always secondary to another issue .
I too bred one who behaved very much like you describe , it took a handling incident when I was luckily to escape without serious injury (I got knocked out when it attacked me in the stable despite the fact I was wearing a crash cap ) for me to realise I simply had to protect humans over the horse and I had her PTS .
 
As he is a homebred you know it is not related to bad treatment or rough handling so I would suspect he has either had the ulcers for a long time, they sometimes start at weaning, or that the ulcers are secondary to pain elsewhere, as is so often the case, and that until the primary cause is found the ulcers will continue and so will the aggression.
Janet George is dealing with a similar homebred, I think he is having treatment for ulcers as well, it may be worth sending her a pm as again it is homebred and has no reason to be so difficult, she was going to pts but I think it has had a reprieve while ulcer treatment is being tried.
 
Well to start with, I wouldn't be working a horse, especially a youngster, which is being treated for ulcers. I would wait until acute treatment is finished. I am not surprised he doesn't want to be caught! Why does he need a rug? Temperatures are reasonably warm now. This horse is trying desperately to tell you to leave him alone in his.misery. If he is not aggressive towards other horses, I would give him a quiet companion, keep them both to the same strict, no fuss routine and only feed as much no molasses, no cereal feed as he needs for meds until the vet says there is nosign of ulcers. Then I would very carefully and honestly review my management to work out how to avoid a recurrence in this horse or others.
 
I would always take a stick into the field to fend him off - you really dont want a horse coming at you, even if he has ulcers. This aggression may not be pain related, it maybe a bit of 'fiesty fives' or 'teeenage strop' ..... even if a horse is in serious pain, he is highly unlikely to attack you for no reason, unless you provoke him. or he is hand reared. Does he do the same in a stable? Alone in field? I dont think just 'leaving him in peace' is the answer, you need to handle him, pick his feet etc there is no excuse for aggression under the circumstances you describe.
 
be positive said:
Janet George is dealing with a similar homebred, I think he is having treatment for ulcers as well, it may be worth sending her a pm as again it is homebred and has no reason to be so difficult, she was going to pts but I think it has had a reprieve while ulcer treatment is being tried.
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Crazy horse has been chucked out in the field for now - ran out of time and stables that could be put to better use. I'm as sure as I can be that ulcers are gone - but he's still afraid of people. Just hoping the good example set by those who climb all over me will help. The big problem is memories! Bad ones!

Why do I still think it was ulcers (and subsequent castration pain.) Well - we reated him for ulcers for 6 weeks and he definitely improved. We stopped the treatment - he regressed. We started again - and he improved. When I bring him back in I'll have him on 6 weeks of ulcer treatment again - from the start. Hopefully, that will deal with the added 'stress' of being in and handled.

You just can't expect a fast result. And make sure any/everyone else stays out of his way. The main reason I didn't have mine put down last year was it would have needed getting the guy from the Safari Park out with his dart gun - now it's just crazy obstinacy and the desire to win!
 
Second what everyone else says regarding the ulcers being a secondary problem.

I would also be tempted to investigate possible neurological problems. When I worked at Stud there was a foal who my boss said "Was born angry". In all her years she had never had to handle such a badly tempered youngster.

She had wobblers and had to be PTS after a fall in the field not long after diagnosis.

I also second what someone else has said, if after thorough investigations there is no resolve, PTS. This horse is obviously not happy, and is potentially a danger to humans. Over half a tonne of angry horse is nothing to mess about with.
 
I will try an answer everyone's questions:

A stick is not an option, even if you growl at him, he will try to kick you. I can only imagine what the response would be if you waved a stick at him. Yes he can be the same in the stable. We never dared go near him while food was present in the box, even to just top up his hay net. Leaving him in peace is not an option as he needs his medicine and so needs to be caught to do this. Once he is out of his field he is lovely to deal with - A typical 5 yr old, competition bred horse in the dark, wind and rain but generally quite a nice chap to do and polite with it.

Exercise was under veterinary advice to work him lightly after the first week of treatment, we did not ask to work him. He has not been worked since he started treatment as we felt it counterproductive. He wears a fly rug during the day as gets bothered by them alot and wore a light sheet last night as temperatures dropped to 6 here with wind and rain. He also needs to be caught to give him his syringes. It is not an option to bring him in away from the flies as he stresses while in and fly spray is a no go. He had a hernia as a foal and no amount of conditioning to fly spray has worked to reprieve his fear of it.

He is and always has been on a fibre only diet, we are not fans of ploughing cereals into horses who are not in racing or hunting work and none of our other horses have issues. Management of this horse and all of the others for that matter has always been excellent and as natural as possible. We are blessed in that we can give 24/7 turnout, even in winter if needed and as such have never had any ulcer related issues prior.

Regarding PTS:
This, in my heart, is I feel what will end up happening, if he were mine... He belongs to my mother and even while starting him, we suggested that he were sold as he is a big, strongly built animal with a 5ft1", lightweight lady rider. The answer was no. To me, no horse is worth getting hurt over, none of us are getting any younger and we quit doing horses professionally as it wasn't enjoyable anymore. Dealing with this horse is not fun, it's stressful and is making me quite nervous of what he is going to do next, especially in a morning as I deal with him on my own.

I have spoken to the vet this morning and she has been quite pragmatic and has said our options are limited without spending endless amounts of money on investigating secondary issues, which she feels are likely in this form of extreme aggression. Neurological did actually come up in conversation but again, it will be costly to investigate and without a guaranteed answer at the end insurance is unlikely to pay out.

Basically it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack with a horse, who at the end of the day would be a RC level horse, at best... Just goes to show no amount of decent breeding (out of a beautifully put together and lovely tempered mare and by a very talented stallion) can breed you a top class competition horse.
 
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You say he belongs to your mother? You say none of you are getting any younger but Ive no idea what ages you or your mother are. Does mum have a plan for him, does she ride him herself or is she expecting him to go to a pro, or was he to be your ride? I think you need to look after yourself here and if he is dangerous to handle I would be asking for him to either go to a pro who is prepared to deal with him or telling your Mum she must deal with him herself and if she is not prepared to do either, PTS. Please bear in mind Im saying this as someone who has no idea of your family set up so any/all of it may be completely inappropriate, its what I would do though.
 
Is this my true age or the one I tell everyone? Lol. My mother is in her mid 50's and won't deal with him. She is not capable of dealing with him either and neither would I want her to. Mum owns said horse and was destined to be my sisters ride. He is based at our yard and mum very rarely deals with him. We said a long time ago that he needed to be sold or at least produced by a professional as too much horse for such a small and lightweight rider, albeit one who is extremely experienced, strong and capable but this was not an option from my mums perspective - she owns the horse and pays the bills so gets the final say.
 
I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you are having with this horse - it is always so much more difficult emotionally with a homebred.

I certainly don't think I would be changing his rug whatever the weather forecast. You could also try spraying the flyspray onto a sponge and them wiping him with that.

If the ulcer treatment does not work then pts does sound like the most likely option unless you could find a professional willing to take a chance on a very cheap horse.

I'm afraid that although your mother pays the bills the safety of your sister and yourself has to take precedence over her wishes.
 
You also have the right to say that you won't put your life in danger by dealing with him anymore if the ulcer treatment doesn't work.
 
eggs said:
I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you are having with this horse - it is always so much more difficult emotionally with a homebred.

I certainly don't think I would be changing his rug whatever the weather forecast. You could also try spraying the flyspray onto a sponge and them wiping him with that.

If the ulcer treatment does not work then pts does sound like the most likely option unless you could find a professional willing to take a chance on a very cheap horse.

I'm afraid that although your mother pays the bills the safety of your sister and yourself has to take precedence over her wishes.
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I have no emotional attachment to this horse. I like him but from an emotional perspective he is just another horse. He will not be sold, that is for sure. I like sleeping soundly at night knowing that my horses are safe. This is the type of horse who will end up in the wrong hands.

Fly rug will be removed - Vet has kind of put it into perspective by pointing out that a horse being bitten by flies is a much kinder option than us being in hospital, so bitten he shall get. Regarding wiping it on, i am not willing to get that close to him at the moment to wipe it on his bits.
 
could the grass ATM be making it worse and have you tried equishure? (online from Saracens) It is a powder given in feed, not cheap but it can be very effective. The quantity is dependent on the level of grass. A mostly hay diet gets less, mostly grass more.

I have one horse on it ATM. Without it he would be similar to yours (never badly treated, it is a pain issue) with it he is tolerable to handle, groom, rug etc etc safely.
 
Depending on how much you are prepared to invest in him, might be worth getting someone like Richard Maxwell or Micky Gavin to give you their opinion on how to handle him and whether they think he might always be like that. You are not only dealing with pain but also memory and maybe fear if you have had to defend yourself against him in the past. It is usually reassuring to have an expert opinion before you take an irrevocable step, then you will know you have done all you can. Poor horse, I feel for him, it is totally against their nature to expend that much energy for no good reason.
 
I'm afraid I would PTS, right away, rather than be responsible for someone's death or serious injury.
There have always been vicious horses. In the past they could be put to work pulling omnibuses or such, where the hard work would take the fight out of them. These days barring serious talent, horses are pets or breeding stock - either way this animal has no future.

There are so many lovely natured animals in need of a home... put your time, knowledge and money into one of them instead, and save two lives in the process.
 
paddy555 said:
could the grass ATM be making it worse and have you tried equishure? (online from Saracens) It is a powder given in feed, not cheap but it can be very effective. The quantity is dependent on the level of grass. A mostly hay diet gets less, mostly grass more.

I have one horse on it ATM. Without it he would be similar to yours (never badly treated, it is a pain issue) with it he is tolerable to handle, groom, rug etc etc safely.
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Thank you for taking the time to reply but where do you stop though Paddy? Just a bit of light reading this morning has suggested this supplement, that supplement etc that we could literally spend 2 years trying different things.

JillA said:
Depending on how much you are prepared to invest in him, might be worth getting someone like Richard Maxwell or Micky Gavin to give you their opinion on how to handle him and whether they think he might always be like that. You are not only dealing with pain but also memory and maybe fear if you have had to defend yourself against him in the past. It is usually reassuring to have an expert opinion before you take an irrevocable step, then you will know you have done all you can. Poor horse, I feel for him, it is totally against their nature to expend that much energy for no good reason.
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Yes I know, this is the saddest part about it. He is not an aggressive horse by nature as such as once you have caught him, he is actually quite sweet to deal with apart from when the saddle comes out. This to me is a pain or psychological (or likely now both) issue. I do know where you are coming from but having had a horse PTS due to behavioural issues in the past I do have conviction in my own decision in doing such a irrevocable deed as PTS.
 
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You can get sachets of ulcer treatment online. Much easier than using a syringe and no need to catch him. From what you say, it seems that yes, he's in pain, but he's always been like it to a certain extent. Although foals can have ulcers, it is unlikely IMO that the ulcers are the root of his issues. As others have said; they usually have a cause. His behaviour in the field and the stable would suggest he also has territorial issues because you say he is fine whilst out and being handled on the ground. I would say that 99% of aggression is caused by fear or pain or anticipation of either. It may be that he associates being caught with being ridden and any pain associated with that (including dental or jaw problems - have you tried bitless? Has he seen the dentist?). Of course he could be one of the 1% of horses that are just plain nasty, or have a mental problem. If he were mine, I would order the sachets of abprazole available on line and leave him be in the field. Monitor his progress. If he is insured I would have an MRI scan of his head. If not, I would still get head xrays done to rule out any jaw fracture. I would probably also get other x-rays done of his neck back and feet. If the behaviour persisted and all x-rays were clear, then I would PTS.
 
Hard and all as it is for everyone to take on board there are horses out there who do not have temperaments that make it possible for them to be ridden or kept. If that horse is not afraid of a big stick in the field then that is bad indeed.

I had a mare with behavoural problems that I sent to a professional who's verdict was "you can never sell her - she will kill someone". The same mare was the sweetest horse also to deal with, very affectionate but ask her to do something under saddle that she didn't like and she could throw herself on the ground in protest. Bronced me off and I was only lucky I broke my collar bone and not my neck. I later learned that her grandfather, Trigererro, was known for a terrible temper and she had inherited it. Simple as.

A friend, a top producer and great horseman told me that he took two fillies out and shot them earlier this year. In his assessment they were 'crazy', dangerous, and he felt he was doing the most responsible thing. He would not sell them on and put someone else in danger.

This is already a dangerous sport, so there's no need to up the odds by having a volatile, aggressive horse like that. It sounds cruel perhaps to some, but you must think of your own and your family's safety. It will be too late when he lands a kick on you or attacks you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/class...y-irish-horses
 
The wife said:
Thank you for taking the time to reply but where do you stop though Paddy? Just a bit of light reading this morning has suggested this supplement, that supplement etc that we could literally spend 2 years trying different things.
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well you stop with a bullet. In the meantime equishure is a hindgut buffer for horses with sub clinical acidosis which amongst other things can be caused by pasture grasses rich in fructans. That is the reason I use it for one of mine. It works (if that is the problem) If your mother pays the bills why not give it a go, you will see results quickly if you are going to get them.
 
Nothing to add, but I think this horse is lucky to have you! Good luck with whatever you decide, there are far, far worst fates for any animal then to be PTS.,
 
Thank you for clarifying your family situation. Im in my mid 50s and wouldnt want to be handling anything with known temperament issues, nor would I want anyone else to do it on my behalf. I appreciate this horse may be behaving as he does because of some, as yet, undiagnosed pain issues, but even so I would be insisting he leaves my yard and goes to someone with both the time and the inclination to deal with him, family or not. If that is not an option I would stick him out in the field and inform his owner that it was up to them to look after him, again, family or not. Horses are quite dangerous enough without throwing extra problems into the mix! Very difficult position for you to be in, noone seems to be willing to step up to the plate and make a decision but expects you to just get on with it. Sorry if Im jumping to the wrong conclusion but I just get that impression!
 
Aggressive horses have no place in the popular market... not everyone is Mark Rashid or some other horse whispering savant. Not only that, there are a million fabulously well tempered specimens floating about. Why do we need more excuses to throw good money after bad?

I've known loads of horses with ulcers, bad shoulders, bad legs, bad whatever and these have upheld some of their charming demeanours towards the humans who try to help.
 
tallyho! said:
Aggressive horses have no place in the popular market... not everyone is Mark Rashid or some other horse whispering savant. Not only that, there are a million fabulously well tempered specimens floating about. Why do we need more excuses to throw good money after bad?

I've known loads of horses with ulcers, bad shoulders, bad legs, bad whatever and these have upheld some of their charming demeanours towards the humans who try to help.
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You have hit the nail on the head or maybe it's the wine... sister and I said long ago it is an ungrateful animal - while I appreciate horses are not capable of such emotions this one does come acRoss as such. It doesn't like being fed (or doesn't show it), he doesn't like not being fed. He doesn't like being ridden, he doesn't like being left to his own devices in the field. I could go on forever actually. Hacking, cantering in fields,being in, being out, jumping etc This is a horse who we have given so much time to and so much energy and again I will reiterate I know horses can not show gratefulness but he is is so ungenuine it's unreal.

Sorry, it's my wedding anniversary today and I am downing prosecco and wine like it has gone out of fashion; )
 
Happy Aniversary 🎉.

It seems like such a hard decision regarding his future. You have spent lots of money and as you said he isn't appreciative of anything you offer- in only the way a horse can be.

If you solve what you feel is an ulcer issue would that make him rideable - if he had a job would he be a nicer person. If the answer is no then I would consider field retirement if an option - could he live out 24/7/Rug and rough off or I would pts. I understand how final and Unreversible that decision is but maybe he is in continuous pain which would cost more to investigate if you were to ever actually find the issue.

I wish you the best with your decision and hope you remain safe. A big dangerous horse is no fun.
 
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