Serious question : BE dressage judges versus pure dressage judges

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Bubblegum

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Are they looking for completely different things????

Our ex-racer, Steve, he is not the best mover in the world...and I fully accept this. But, he is well schooled ( by my daughter ) very rideable in his flatwork, and accurate every time. Not Hollow, not unduly tense. Can be a bit short in his working trot. Medium trot is fab, canter work, lovely. Counter canter, medium canter all good. Walk very good too.

So. BE judges hate him. Hopeless marks in the 40's, always. Our RC do lovely dressage, and whilst I fully appreciate that UA is a different ballgame to BE, well we are a good standard RC, and attract good judges.

Just as an example ... we decided to have a bit of a game yesterday. Daughter did one test on him, I did the other. Both Novice tests. I haven't ridden a test for ages and ages, was very nervous, and hardly ever ride the horse, and only to hack out. I did not ride the test before the comp. I had to ride in a dressage saddle for the first time since my broken leg accident (2years ago) and my left leg was useless in it! Couldn't reach the pedals!! But the dear horse totally rideable, honest tried hard. It was Novice 20 test, Sue Dailly the judge, 67.2 %. 2nd.
Daughter then got on and did her test in a long arena, Frances Wheatley the judge.. 69.3%. 1st.

Now, I know UA is different. But there were good riders in our classes, some of which are our very good friends and also do BE. With consistently good BE scores. And Steve, our horse, held his own, and beat them !

So, what is going on??? What are we doing wrong? Nerves at BE ?? No! horse doesn't crumble with nerves, as I couldn't have been more nervous when I rode him...trust me ...lack of comp experience on my part, and not wanting to let my daughter down....

Question is... does anyone else have this problem? And ultimatley...do BE judges look for somthing totally different???

Thanks :)
 
I don't really have an answer for your comparison as I don't BE, but I have noticed a difference between UA and A BD, i.e. often more 'generous' judging in UA.

One thought did spring to mind, could you video a test at a dressage event and a test at a BE event and then send them to the dressage online marking/competition website to see if there are marking differences between them?

http://www.interdressage.com/
 
Roody2 said:
I don't really have an answer for your comparison as I don't BE, but I have noticed a difference between UA and A BD, i.e. often more 'generous' judging in UA.

One thought did spring to mind, could you video a test at a dressage event and a test at a BE event and then send them to the dressage online marking/competition website to see if there are marking differences between them?

http://www.interdressage.com/
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Thank you. That is a very helpful suggestion. I will look into that. :)
 
Our eventing judges are usually the ones who judge at dressage too! :)

My marks have been generally the same in dressage and eventing, although have had a better mark at eventing than would normally get :p

I was told that in eventing, the number one thing at the lower levels is relaxed and forward :)
 
only_me said:
Our eventing judges are usually the ones who judge at dressage too! :)

My marks have been generally the same in dressage and eventing, although have had a better mark at eventing than would normally get :p

I was told that in eventing, the number one thing at the lower levels is relaxed and forward :)
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Thank you. This is really helpful actually. Judge said 'horse needs to relax more, and this will be good'.
Steve has it all there, but his frame is very 'uphill' he is not at all 'long and low' but for movements like Counter Canter, flying changes, medium paces...he is all there already.
I don't know, maybe we shouldn't change his natural way of going too much to achieve at lower levels....perhaps he will catch up in time with his dressage. He is such a jumper. :(
 
Bubblegum said:
Thank you. This is really helpful actually. Judge said 'horse needs to relax more, and this will be good'.
Steve has it all there, but his frame is very 'uphill' he is not at all 'long and low' but for movements like Counter Canter, flying changes, medium paces...he is all there already.
I don't know, maybe we shouldn't change his natural way of going too much to achieve at lower levels....perhaps he will catch up in time with his dressage. He is such a jumper. :(
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That is a point actually - what level are you eventing at. He may be being penalised for not going in a "novice" outline if he is working at a higher level. How many BE tests has he done and are marks always similar?
 
DarkHorseB said:
That is a point actually - what level are you eventing at. He may be being penalised for not going in a "novice" outline if he is working at a higher level. How many BE tests has he done and are marks always similar?
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Well, he has recently moved from PN to Novice BE, and his marks are the same. :(
We have had some problems lately, and my daughter is getting a little dis-heartened as she works so hard. And tries so hard, almost too hard sometimes I think.
We can't afford loads of lessons, and we read loads of stuff, I teach her myself.
HHO is a valuable resource of info, always. And I am on the committee at RC, and everyone is great and supports her so much. And I learn so much from their experience as we have some very talented riders in all disciplines in our RC.
But this thing has got me puzzled :(
 
Some very interesting points. I often wonder too. I've come to the conclusions that calmness and rhythm count for loads in eventing tests, as event horses are often tenser than pure dressage horses.

I was watching at a good unaffiliated RC ODE today, and I watched two horses warm up and do their tests - one was very rhythmic and tracked up, but not really working in any outline, and not very accurate in the movements - I didn't look on it as a very good test when I watched it. It came second after dressage. The rider had been on the wrong diagonal on both reins, and got 7 for their riding! The other horse was working in a nice rhythm and outline, but FAR from tracking up - not quite going forward. It won by miles. I was quite depressed coming away. I don't see the point in even trying to get my horse working, as she gets tense, better perhaps to just let her slop along!
 
BE dressage judges in our area seem to be the same people who do BD and some even do UA, so that won't be the difference.
Dressage is completely subjective judges might not like the horses way of going so mark it down particularly in an affiliated competition, UA tend to be a bit more lenient as they seem to allow for people having a go at a higher level before making the step up for instance.
My advice, have a good look at the judges comments then get some training to address the specific areas that are raised.
 
Honey08 said:
I don't see the point in even trying to get my horse working, as she gets tense, better perhaps to just let her slop along!
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sadly, I sort of agree with this. !! Obviously I don't 'get it' at all.

Must try harder to understand, methinks !!!
:)
 
VoR said:
BE dressage judges in our area seem to be the same people who do BD and some even do UA, so that won't be the difference.
Dressage is completely subjective judges might not like the horses way of going so mark it down particularly in an affiliated competition, UA tend to be a bit more lenient as they seem to allow for people having a go at a higher level before making the step up for instance.
My advice, have a good look at the judges comments then get some training to address the specific areas that are raised.
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Of course you make perfect sense, and that is my point really. BE judges don't like our horses way of going. Period.
Question is...do we make great efforts to change it to achieve at novice level? or do we wait til his dressage catches up with his jumping ability?:confused:
 
Bubblegum said:
Of course you make perfect sense, and that is my point really. BE judges don't like our horses way of going. Period.
Question is...do we make great efforts to change it to achieve at novice level? or do we wait til his dressage catches up with his jumping ability?:confused:
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Trouble is, dressage is soooo important if you want to be competitive at any level in BE, so I would say if you want to compete to win then the dressage problem needs to be addressed.
 
VoR said:
Trouble is, dressage is soooo important if you want to be competitive at any level in BE, so I would say if you want to compete to win then the dressage problem needs to be addressed.
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Yes, agreed.
Thanks so much.
I have a few ideas up my sleeve... where there's a will, there's a way! and all that.!!
Interesting to hear others point of view on the subject. Much appreciated. :)

I'll keep you posted!!!! :)
 
What we do is video every single test that Reg does- he's also an exracer, although he's currently only at PC intermediate- and then we can look at different marks and see what different judges like straight away. This way, you'll know the judge you have coming up for your next event likes horses in deep outline, or they really penalise you for going behind the vertical, or whatever.

Also, I *think* you're in the same area as us for BE stuff (I remember you said you did Gt Witchingham?) and there's been a few oppurtunities this year to ride a test for a judge and them have them rip it apart for you. If that comes up again, I'd really do it!

And finally, u/a dressage is generally about 5-10% better than affiliated eventing round here... And the criteria are different in a way- at BE100, you want a horse in an established outline working well. At prelim/ novice unaff. dressage you get away with tenseness and coming out of the outline a lot more...
 
I seem to have come up against this problem at our last couple of BE events too. Started the season with consistent 32s (placed in the top 10) then did what I thought was a similar test for 45 and placed second last. The horse has won his last 4 pure dressage outings, all under aff judges, with 68-72% :confused:. We wondered whether it was because BE is on grass but the 45 test was actually on a surface. I doubt it is the presence of XC commentary etc. because I don't feel that the horse goes any differently in BE dressage and he's a pretty chilled customer.

We have monthly lessons with a top-level dressage trainer who is involved with eventing and also BD. He said it was the horse's way of going that probably upset the '45' judge. He works correctly but in a more advanced outline than you would expect from a youngster doing PN. In fact the trainer said he wouldn't change the outline to ride a 4* test on this horse.

I am persevering in the hope that we'll be back to a 32 next time out!
 
Lolo said:
This way, you'll know the judge you have coming up for your next event likes horses in deep outline, or they really penalise you for going behind the vertical, or whatever.
.
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How on earth can you know which dressage judge you'll have for your section in advance? :confused: Besides, isn't changing the horse's way of going a dangerous tactic. Surely you should try to produce a 'correct' test wherever possible and hope that you get recognised for doing so?
 
QR are your BD tests on a surface? I find doing it on grass makes a huge difference to some horses: I have a big-moving youngster who scores high 70%s on a surface but, take yesterday, really struggled in a sloping, concrete-hard grass arena and scored 35.5 at BE :(
 
Gamebird said:
I seem to have come up against this problem at our last couple of BE events too. Started the season with consistent 32s (placed in the top 10) then did what I thought was a similar test for 45 and placed second last. The horse has won his last 4 pure dressage outings, all under aff judges, with 68-72% :confused:. We wondered whether it was because BE is on grass but the 45 test was actually on a surface. I doubt it is the presence of XC commentary etc. because I don't feel that the horse goes any differently in BE dressage and he's a pretty chilled customer.

We have monthly lessons with a top-level dressage trainer who is involved with eventing and also BD. He said it was the horse's way of going that probably upset the '45' judge. He works correctly but in a more advanced outline than you would expect from a youngster doing PN. In fact the trainer said he wouldn't change the outline to ride a 4* test on this horse.

I am persevering in the hope that we'll be back to a 32 next time out!
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Well, at least it's not just us!!! agree with all of the above. So frustrating!!! Keep in touch, we are determined not to dramaticially change our horses 'way of going' as he tries so hard, finds difficult movements easy, and is an absolute joy to ride.
We, too have thought it may be lots to do with riding on grass v surface. Our very experienced farrier spent an hour with my daughter watching her ride on Friday. We have a hilly paddock (and despite the very hard ground here atm), he described as 'excellent training ground'.
Steve worked consistently in all paces uphill and downhill, and our farrier thought he was extremely level, and balanced in all paces. So that's encouraging.

Guess we will just keep going, like you. :)
 
TableDancer said:
QR are your BD tests on a surface? I find doing it on grass makes a huge difference to some horses: I have a big-moving youngster who scores high 70%s on a surface but, take yesterday, really struggled in a sloping, concrete-hard grass arena and scored 35.5 at BE :(
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Yes, I have thought about this too, and really thought it was a factor.
Until we had our farrier here, to watch our horse work. He does all the remedial shoeing at Rossdales, and is extremely experienced in watching for balance, soundness, way of going etc, and cares for some very, very valuable BE horses.
He kindly spent an hour with my daughter and Steve, put them through their paces, and couldn't find a thing wrong.
He gave my daughter loads of valuable tips about using our hilly paddock to her advantage for training.... so we will keep going!!

Thanks for your input. :)
 
I can't offer much helpful, but apparently sitting trot is a MASSIVE turn off for Be judges at nov and below. (This is just what people say though!)
 
I'd definitely suggest investing in a couple of lessons with a good trainer especially one who is a judge as well. Also agree with the suggestion of doing a ride a test clinic if you can find one. Worth sacrificing a couple of BE entries to fund training if it increases chances of being placed.

Also see if you can volunteer to write for a judge - it will give you a new perspective.

On another issue raised, I feel that a well-schooled horse should be able to work in whatever frame the rider asks so if you arrive at an event and realise your judge likes long and low it should be relatively simple to ask the horse for that frame in the test. Likewise if the judge likes to see them more 'together' then the horse can be asked for this.
 
Not sure if anyone else has already raised this so apologies if repeated. We often hear competitors saying that they are disappointed with their dressage performance and or marks. A number of judges I have worked with have also commented that competitors will often school at home on a surface and when they get to an event the horse has to deal with being on grass. I wonder if the two are related to your situation? Have you seen a difference in your marks between competing on a surface to grass?

With regard to sourcing judges, certainly at Novice level they are supposed to be BD listed but having said that I have seen a significant inconsistency in the quality of judges within a given BD level and have a list of some I will not invite back!

In my experience judges are usually happy to give feedback after the section has completed, perhaps this might be an opportunity for you.

Good luck.
 
DarkHorseB said:
That is a point actually - what level are you eventing at. He may be being penalised for not going in a "novice" outline if he is working at a higher level. How many BE tests has he done and are marks always similar?
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You would not be penalised for working in better balance/outline.

If the balance is better then the mark would be higher.
 
DarkHorseB said:
That is a point actually - what level are you eventing at. He may be being penalised for not going in a "novice" outline if he is working at a higher level. How many BE tests has he done and are marks always similar?
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BEVol said:
Agreed!:eek:
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The way of going is being marked and whether the rider has a positive or negative influence.

If you sit and shut down the trot then the mark will be lower as it has a negative influence.

Also, you are not marked down for posting on either diagonal. There is not rule for this.

Your horse may be more relaxed and more over its back in Unaffiliateds. Tension can be an issue at BE as they are ready to x-country and have horses cantering in tests next to them.
 
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I don't think BE judges penalise for a horse working in a more advanced outline than the level personally. The grumpy bay one is working in a far more advanced outline, in better balance etc than he was last time I did BE, I am eventing two levels lower, and the marks are 10 penalties higher (give or take).

Every year at the start of the season, I dressage write, this helps get a feel for what the 'issues' are which get penalised. Behind the vertical always gets penalised heavily, and most people BE just don't ride forwards enough. As one judge I wrote for in a CCI* said, most people's medium should be their working, in trot and canter!

I think without seeing it, hard to know what the issue could be, perhaps there is something creeping in which you aren't noticing because you are too 'close' to the situation?
 
Bubblegum said:
Are they looking for completely different things????

So. BE judges hate him. Hopeless marks in the 40's, always. Our RC do lovely dressage, and whilst I fully appreciate that UA is a different ballgame to BE, well we are a good standard RC, and attract good judges.

It was Novice 20 test, Sue Dailly the judge, 67.2 %. 2nd.
Daughter then got on and did her test in a long arena, Frances Wheatley the judge.. 69.3%. 1st.

Now, I know UA is different. But there were good riders in our classes, some of which are our very good friends and also do BE. With consistently good BE scores. And Steve, our horse, held his own, and beat them !

So, what is going on??? What are we doing wrong? Nerves at BE ?? No! horse doesn't crumble with nerves, as I couldn't have been more nervous when I rode him...trust me ...lack of comp experience on my part, and not wanting to let my daughter down....

Question is... does anyone else have this problem? And ultimatley...do BE judges look for somthing totally different???

Thanks :)
Click to expand...

Remeber that in eventing the dressage score is a penalty score - there is a formula that is used to bring the marks in line with the jumping faults - so the lower the score the better the test.

Check your test actual marks - add them up and then divide by the total marks allowed for the test - this will give you the true percentage - as per pure dressage.
 
Gamebird said:
How on earth can you know which dressage judge you'll have for your section in advance? :confused: Besides, isn't changing the horse's way of going a dangerous tactic. Surely you should try to produce a 'correct' test wherever possible and hope that you get recognised for doing so?
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I meant that at least you can write off the test before you begin, rather than be overly optimistic, lol!

I didn't know BE didn't release judge's names before the day- PC always does which is really quite nice! Although a bit demoralising when you see you've got a judge who just isn't a fan!
 
Evelyn said:
Remeber that in eventing the dressage score is a penalty score - there is a formula that is used to bring the marks in line with the jumping faults - so the lower the score the better the test.

Check your test actual marks - add them up and then divide by the total marks allowed for the test - this will give you the true percentage - as per pure dressage.
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There's no formula applied for UK one days - the dressage coefficient only comes in at FEI level over here. So a 40 is 60% because all we do is take the % mark away from 100 to give penalties.

Thus the OP is getting roughly a 10% difference in scores with BE being 10% worse than 'normal' dressage.
 
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