Severe and rapid weight loss

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dray123

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Hi everyone,

I just wanted to ask your advice really if you had any ideas what the problem with my tb could be,

basically, I brought him in September and when we had the second lot of snow in december he lost within a month lots and lots of weight (he didnt have a lot of fat to begin with being a skinny tb), he also became depressed and moody and didnt really do a lot except a noticeable increase in the windsucking.

Now, I had the dentist out and he told me that he had extremly bad teeth and when he put his hand in he actually cut his hand. He also said that in the whole 6 years of his life he didnt appear to of ever had a dentist to look at his teeth they were in such bad state. So the dentist filed them down and did what he could to help him and hes coming back in August to check and file them some more. After the dentist had been I thought the weight would just pile on, obviously I was wrong!

Its been 2 months and hes only put on a little bit. Although it is noticeably a lot to me because I see him everyday, he still looks extremly underweight.

After the dentist had come out, a few weeks later I called the vet, who checked him over and did a blood test and basically said there was nothing wrong with him, he had just recovered from a virus and that it was my feeding that was the problem and that I should contact Dobson and Horrell for some specialist feed advice. I was to also worm him and box him and let him in the field for only a few hours.

In contacting D&H exactly like the vet had told me, they advised I tried their barley rings and speedi beat. If only things were that simple! Jase doesnt seem to like barley rings, we've tried them dry and soaked and he just spits them out, and doesnt even go near the speedi beat, being an ex-racer he pretty much only eats his chaff, mix & nuts.

At the minute im feeding him on 1 large scoop of alfa oil, 1 large scoop of build up mix, 1 cup of equijewel, small scoop of nuts and readi grass. He also has hay (doesnt eat haylage?) and 2 in the morning and 2 at night, he doesnt always finish his hay, he also has a feed 2-3 times a day and is out in the field living out because he doesnt like being boxed and runs round his stable/weaves till hes dripping with sweat and windsucks constantly, and when hes in the field his weaving/windsucking seems to disappear.


Am i being a complete twit about what im feeding him or do you all think theres something else going on? Iv hoped I've explained it all reasonably well, if not a bit complicated - let me know :)
 
From your description I would talk to your vets again about the possibility of stomach ulcers and would need scoping to get a firm diagonosis. The symptoms match, especially loss of weight and windsucking.
 
to be honest i think your feeding to much and half of what your putting into him is coming straight back out, also some of what your feeding is contridicting another item such as...

alfa oil and redi grass. class both of these as chaffs.

mix and nuts both are the same product.

i would be feeding, the alfa oil with proberley blue chip not equi jewel,

equi jewel is very high in oil as is the alfa, and its possible that your over loading his system. also worth noting that the equijewel doesnt contain all the required mins and vits needed.

from memory.. you can feed around 1kg of alfa oil per feed for a horse of his type (am going on hes around 16.2 weighing around 500 kg) and equi jewel up to 3 mug fulls per feed. this combination would allow you to add a small amount of mix/beet for flavour and tempting to eat.

the redi grass use it as an extra, they can have a small bucket full or even average size bucket full as a hay replacer. so aswell as he 3 feeds a day he can also have this.

you may find that alot of his stressing is due to diet, your putting so much oil/sugar/protein etc into him it may just be sending nuts.
 
Hmm im not sure tbh, since hes had what hes been having he has put some weight on, im just not entirely convinced its all down to his diet and theres not a hidden problem. The lady who owned him before me just used to feed him a bowl of nuts a day, and she was a "professional racehorse trainer" apparently.

I was looking on one of the other posts about stomach ulcers and theres some things that Jase does, for example, before he got drastically skinny and was still rideable he did become really grumpy when having his girth done up and changing his rug. They are signs of pain in his tummy, which may indicate a stomach problemo.

Also when we wormed him, he had lots of redworm in his droppings.
 
I would recommend getting some advice from other feed companies Topspec and Spillers are both very helpful.

It would be helpful for him to have a gut balancer for a month or so help even things out.

What are his droppings/urine like? Does he have any problems going?
 
He was on Restore recommended by someone at the feed shop, he doesnt seem to have any problems with his droppings.

Im really at a loose end with it all, hes so underweight and im being told so many different things by everyone i know, each recommending feeds that will work, and hes really fussy about what he eats and won't touch the stuff that will put the weight on him.

Horses ay, who'd be crazy enough to have them!
 
Most good feed companies will send you samples to see if he will eat it, and I know that it is different for different horses but I found Topspec conditioning flakes really good! And didn't make the horse fizzy!
 
I would have him out in long (At least ankle length if possible) grass. wormed. Getting two feeds a day-of conditioning mix and linseed oil. I find spillers topline good. I wouldn't have him in due to the stressing. Obviously build this up gradually, but I would cut out the chaff. I would not be riding him and feed the feed weighed out according to manufacturers recommendations . This could be 4/5 scoops a day and obviously this needs built up slowly and I would try him on two scoops a day do begin with as I know very few horses on good grass and conditioning mix who don't pick up.
 
dray123 said:
I was looking on one of the other posts about stomach ulcers and theres some things that Jase does, for example, before he got drastically skinny and was still rideable he did become really grumpy when having his girth done up and changing his rug. They are signs of pain in his tummy, which may indicate a stomach problemo.

Also when we wormed him, he had lots of redworm in his droppings.
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Stomach ulcers are certainlya possibility - although living out should have helped with that. But the redworm would be my first bet. What did you worm him with?? And do you know if he's an English TB - or whether he's come from elsewhere?? (I ask because there are SERIOUS wormer resistances - particularly redworms - in Australia. A friend bought an Australian TB who had been over here 2 years, and despite regular worming, he was FULL of redworm. Took some heavy duty blasting before she got him clear!
 
I would get a worm egg count if you have not already done so. It would be best to rule out an underlying worm problem. He may well have stomach acid problems. I think I would probably get in touch with an independent qualified equine nutritionist for advice. Obviously the ones who work for feed companies will recommend their own products (not that there is anything wrong in this) but an independent one, will give you impartial advice. Let me know if you want a name.
 
Your horse sounds like my horse did at the end of the winter; lose of weight and condition, evil personality appeared from nowhere etc. I had blood tests done too - nothing there. He's recently been scoped for stomach ulcers - yep he has them. Hes been on Gastroguard for a week and hes a different horse already. I would worm him again with Equest Pramox - twice if you have to over a fortnight, then ask your vet about scoping him for ulcers. I'm having to cut down on my horse's feed now as he's piling it on a bit. Also, turn out to grass as much as you can now as stabling him will only make him worse if he's stressing and has ulcers. I got my boy onto a free scoping day - ask your vet about the possibility.
 
Would agree to check for stomach ulcers. Had this prob with my little TB, found to have stomach ulcers, changed his routine and he hasn't looked back!

What is your horses coat condition? Mine had dry flaky skin. He also got more and more girth shy and started having regular bouts of low grade colic, all symptoms of stomach ulcers.
 
I would also suggest getting him worm counted... Especially as he did have red worm burden recently, just to be sure it's all gone.

A client of mine bought back a 15.2hh 25 yr old tb mare last Aug that had been starved (rspca involved). She was given 1 scoop Alfa Oil, half scoop Baileys Conditioning Cubes and 1 mug of Equijewel, 3 times a day (along with ad lib hay). I was really unsure she would make it through the winter. But come Feb we actually had to CUT the feed as she was huge!

So I'd suggest simplifying your feed.

Can you not give your vet a call and have a chat about what to do next?
 
My first, second and third thoughts would all be about ulcers. And as to what the previous owner fed him, forget it. I doubt very much its true and his unthriftyness could be the exact reason she got rid of him in the first place! Don't forget that many modern feeds are very high in sugar which can upset many horses, especially the naturally hyper types (carrots can be disasterous and cause the trots as well). I would stick to the plainest feed you can find and remember, most horses do best on what nature intended for them - grass. Stick to the usual rules of making changes slowly and feed little and often. Make sure that he is getting at least 2% of his bodyweight daily, and yes, ask for samples from the feed companies before you splash out on a whole bag which he then turns his nose up at.
 
If it does work out to just be a diet issue. I can not recommend Blue Chip highly enough for my horses, both ex racers. They eat it very easily. They did drop some weight in the winter and contacted Blue Chip as I was adding all sorts to their feed to try and bulk them up with the awful winter we were having and restricted grazing. Due to their ages (20 and 21) it was recommened to swap to Blue Chip Pro and they are looking amazing now, much better then I have seen them in a long time! All they get now is Blue Chip Pro, Alfa A Oil and Fibrebeet plus some Soya Oil. It works out much cheaper than all the extra feed I was buying too and produces a much better result!
 
Sounds very much like a pony I used to ride. His problem turned out to be encysted roundworm breaking out of the gut lining. Remember encysted worms will not be picked up by a worm count. It was a few years ago but, if I remember correctly, in the end the diagnosis was confirmed by a gut biopsy. He had been wormed regularly but not sure what with. He was put on a special worming programme from the Vet that lasted several weeks but can't remember the details.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys Iv made a list of all suggestions and feeds and stuff, and when the vet comes out tomorrow Il talk them all through with him.

At the minute hes putng on about 10-20 kg a week, although its not showing that much on him, im not really sure what the ideal amount of weight he should be putting on each week??

I got him from a lady who has a raceyard near wantage in oxford, her and her husband re train the racers after they have come out of racing. And Iv been having problems with her turning up unnanounced at my yard when she "passes by" (i live in bedfordshire), checking him over and sending me texts asking if although she cant buy him back she will always have him back. Not too sure what her deal is, but hes not going anywhere!

I did have the name of an equine nutritionist but have lost their number somewhere, so any numbers you can send me would be much appreciated :)

At the minute he is living out, but because of the diabolical grass we have (or lack of) he doesnt have access to good grass. Although he as much haylage as he wants, although he only has a nibble.

When we first got him he was wormed with equest paramox and hes also had Panacurs 5 day guard which is what brought the worms out.

I deffinately still think its more than just his diet, Iv had horses all my life so I know you have to feed a horse to keep it alive, how his behaviour is etc there must be more too it.

Thanks for all the suggestions :)
 
how is he in himself now? does he look bright happy and alert? does he have a shiny coat?(yes i have read the posts but is he really thin or just thinner than you like/are used to) TB s dont carry much weight and he is probably a natural size 6!! you will never get him to be a chunky size 14! A worm count will tell you if he has an increased burden and so then you can deal with this. has he got a rain sheet for the nights? some tbs are not that tough. could you not find him some good grass to put him on even just for a few weeks Dr Green is really effective. his diet sounds ok but would stick to either readi grass or alpha. blue chip is very good i think the pro one has pre and pro biotics in it. you say he is gaining weight so obviously you are on the right track, unfortunately they loose it far quicker than they ever gain it! yes you could get him scoped for ulcers but i would discuss this with your vet as it is not a cheap option and you have said he is gaining weight! it was a hard winter for everyone. good luck and keep shovelling the grub in!
 
now hes put a bit more weight on he has perked up. He was quite happily running about in the field earlier, which he wasnt really doing before. His coat isnt really that shiny at all, and hes not just a skinny tb, he is really drastically skinny. He is putting the weight on. He was at 408 and hes now 478 so hes putting on about 10 kg a week, give or take. I tried the blue chip before and really arent keen on it, he doesnt eat it aswell, hes very fussy and just about manages the equijewel.


What is Dr Green?
 
im the owners sister.

when we first had the vet out he was a tiny 408 and that was the 11th march.he is now at about 470.after the vet came we did the the equimax as it followed on from the one we gave him soon after he arrived.that brought out a fair few red worms so we left him for a few weeks and then did the pancur as we didnt want to over load him with to much wormer in a short space of time. and oh my god in all my years of horses ive never seen the amount of worms come out that he had. he was riddled. it actually made me feel ill.

Along with the panacur we did the restore treatment from global herbs,and the combination of them both was unbelieveable with in a week he had his spark back and was back to being him and he actually started to graze and act like a horse again, instead of just standing there wind sucking.

his coat is very dull and he has got very flaky skin. every day we can see improvements but its slow and upsetting to see him looking so bad. we were hoping be showing this year as hes got a beautiful jump. you never know whats round the corner do you....

so weve got the teeth sorted as they were disgraceful and were hopefully worm free so im hoping the only way is up.....have to see what the vet says tomorrow.....

what makes things worse is his old owner has reported him/us to the ilph sorry...... world horse welfare,and they also will be coming out tomorrow.

but ive been in long telephone discussions over the phone with them and we have all our paper work at the ready so fingers crossed they can see all the hard work weve been doing.....it makes me mad as he obviously had the teeth and worm problems way before we got him and were left picking up all the mess.
 
Have you tried Pink Powder? Its great stuff. When my TB lost 150kg very very quickly I called the vet who said he had had a virus and was suffering from a post-viral syndrome. Pink Powder along with Alfa a oil, Build up mix and soya oil helped dramtically. I understand you have tried the alpha a oil/build up so perhaps add the Pink Powder and see. I saw positive results within 2 weeks.
 
I second pink powder. I've had great results with it. My TB has no problem with his weight, but the moodiness has gone and he is much more relaxed & happy.
 
it can also be a sign of underlying pain somewhere, worms or general poor health. TB'S are not the best doers anyway.
 
if h is happy with equijewel stick with it! would repeat the panacur 5 day guard to see if any more redworm are present!(again a worm count/bloods useful) maybe add redcell or haemolyte to his feed for 7 days! as for the ilph or whw tell them to discuss this with your vet! dont worry you will be fine .. you have taken all the appropriate steps! the damage by the sounds of it is long term. you are the short term and have addressed the issues. 470 (on a weigh tape i presume) is not a welfare issue unless he is a whopper 18hh plus! unfortunately red worm can do serious gut damage which in some cases can be irreversible! keep in touch with your vet he really is your best advocate.
 
would also get 4 to 6 weekly blood profiles! incl red/white cell count, liver function, kidney function etc. ie a FULL blood profile! then you will see the results or not! and do try to find a really good field of grass for him! Dr Green is good grass!!!
 
Haven't tried equijewel but Blue chip piled it on my old TB. Although use Simple Systems total eclipse for maintainence now.

Good luck tomorrow, hopefully WHW will come when vet is there. Previous owner shoudl sod off - they let him get into thatstate withthe worms! Panacur 5 day is amazing for red worm - bought a sale pony and gave this, as you say, yuck!

Sounds llike he's going in right direction, but obviously your vet is best placed to advise - I would mention all behaviour and ask about ulcers just to be on safe side. And try to find some good grass for him, its the best thing yet!
 
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