Sharing/part-loaning debate: paying AND doing jobs

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MsChops

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I've just had a heated debate with my husband about the madness of the horsey world. He is not horsey, and thinks it is mad that I 'pay to pick up poo'.

I share a horse - two days per week, £25 per week. On my days I muck out, hay net, mix feed, bring in/turn out, skip out, groom/pick feet, change rugs, etc etc. I ride most times, but sometimes can't due to the school being booked up. I pay for lessons on top of this - I try to have one every week.

Every non-horsey person I know seems to think it is akin to slave labour. But I have been in the horse world for so long that I am used to the concept of sharing with money involved. I know there are free shares, or 'work for rides' set-ups out there, but can never find any in my area.

My husband's main argument is that when I'm on holiday, the owner pays the livery yard staff to do what I do - what I normally pay TO do. Our level of riding is on a par - so they are schooling him at the same level I do.

I don't mind paying - in fact I am happy to, if it means carrying on with a decent horse near to where I work. It's very convenient. Of course in winter and when I'm ill or tired, I wish he was on full livery, but doing jobs keeps me fit in my old age! I share because my job requires a lot of travel, and although I could afford a horse, I would only be able to spend two days per week with it anyway, the same as with sharing.

Although I usually argue that it's like having my own horse on my days, so worth paying for, my husband argues that it is like renting a car from a dodgy garage - you pay to put petrol in it so that you can drive it, but you also have to fit parts for it, change the tyres, and clean out the garage before you drive off! :D I can see his point, but like I said I'm very blinkered by being horsey from a young age. I know that it may seem mad to someone outside of the horsey world.

What are your views?
 
It's difficult. There are valid arguments on both sides of the fence and neither are right or wrong.

It is very much dependant on what each party gains from the arrangement and what their priorities are.
 
It can be hard for non-horsey people to understand but of course this is the standard when you share a horse. You are buying into the lifestyle of having a horse and you do for two days a week, so you are paying towards the horse's upkeep. It is probably costing you a little more than two lessons at a riding school but you are getting so much more: bonding with one horse and having some responsibility. And it can be the most fulfilling responsibility ever, which is probably why the situation with sharing horses is rather unique!
 
Wen you factor in the 'running costs' of a horse it is usually roughly £250 a month if on livery (for everything). £25 a week for a horse you can call your own on those days isn't really a lot of money, especially when you aren't taking any risk. If the horse goes lame, you can move on to another loan. If it were your own horse you would still be paying for an un rideable horse.

In some cases if the owner is benefitting from schooling or having less jobs to do themselves then an arrangement can be made for no payment and that is fair to both parties.

If I just wanted my jobs doing I would pay for a groom and I would just ride, if I wanted my horses schooled by someone with more ability than me I would pay for that service. A loaner gets to treat the horse as their own (within reason) and I think that this is a lovely thing :)

When I loaned my mare the loaner paid £25 a week for 3 days. I didn't 'need' a loaner, I just felt it would be nice to have a couple/ few days off and someone else get the pleasure. What actually happened was the loaner got less and less dedicated and I couldn't rely on her to turn up - we are talking 'sorry I can't make it this morning' on her days at 11am when I was already in work and the poor horse had been stabled all night :( but then as a loaner you have that option. As an owner you don't - you either do the horse or pay someone else to. A loaner just passes the responsibility back to the owner.

I've also found with most loans (I'm sure there are exceptions of course) the loaner only goes once a day with the owner covering the other end of the day.

It's all about commitment - yes it is paying to care for someone else's horse, but at the end of the day they take the responsibility and you get some fun :)
 
I think if you are paying to have the use of the horse, I think calling it sharing is not totally honest it is more of a daily hire in many cases, then you should be able to ride with no restrictions, other than ones in place due to limitations of horse or rider, that the school is booked and out of use seems very unfair when you are contributing to the cost of the use of that school as well as doing work to reduce the owners expenses.
Sharing is something I have no experience of, it seems a strange concept to keep a horse and rent it out several days a week, I can see it helps reduce costs from the owners point of view, is a way to ride and spend time with horses from the sharers point but if it doesn't work well it must be extremely tricky to sort out.
I am usually looking for someone to help with exercising mine but the thought of charging them and them thinking they have some say in what goes on or a share of the horse just seems alien, although I am more than happy if they take a real interest and often if someone rides out for me they will get opportunities to compete, if I charged it would feel I had to offer more than exercising.
 
I'm afraid I tend to agree with your husband. I think it's madness to pay that much when you don't always actually get to ride anyway. Essentially you are paying someone to do their chores for them twice a week. Much as I love mucking out and all the yard chores etc, I love it because it's my horse, not someone else's, and I can reap the benefits of putting the hard work in to keep her.

I think £25 per week for two days of chores, and not always getting to ride, is very steep to be honest - I wouldn't be willing to pay it.
 
Another way of looking at it is you could pay £30 a pop for a lesson/hack at riding school twice a week - thus you are saving yourself £35 by doing the jobs. Plus with a lesson all you get is to ride - there is no interaction and the horse will not even know who you are.

Or you could put the £35 a week saving into putting the horse on full livery for your days and just ride, and still probably save £15 a week ;)

Fwiw I do think £25 for 2 days is a bit pricey - I have charged (and paid) that for 3-4 days.
 
Fides said:
If the horse goes lame, you can move on to another loan. If it were your own horse you would still be paying for an un rideable horse.
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I continue to pay when he is unrideable. He was out of action for a while over winter, but due to the bond we have, I carried on with the situation. I see your point, but it's not as simple as being able to just move on to another share. For me, anyway.
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm afraid I tend to agree with your husband. I think it's madness to pay that much when you don't always actually get to ride anyway. Essentially you are paying someone to do their chores for them twice a week. Much as I love mucking out and all the yard chores etc, I love it because it's my horse, not someone else's, and I can reap the benefits of putting the hard work in to keep her.

I think £25 per week for two days of chores, and not always getting to ride, is very steep to be honest - I wouldn't be willing to pay it.
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My husband would love you! I am beginning to see his point more and more to be honest - but will carry on with my share anyway as we have a great bond.

I also sometimes can't ride if the school is under water, if it's booked up for lessons, or if he has been out to a competition the day before and needs a day off.

Of course I sometimes don't ride anyway because I'm tired out from work, or if I'm injured. The latter seems to be happening more and more the older and creakier I get! :)
 
MsChops said:
I continue to pay when he is unrideable. He was out of action for a while over winter, but due to the bond we have, I carried on with the situation. I see your point, but it's not as simple as being able to just move on to another share. For me, anyway.
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Not all sharers are like you - I commend you for it. In my experience most even move on when winter comes and it stops being so 'nice'.

Can I clone you please?

I would love for a horse mad teen to be able to experience my mare. She's totally brilliant but I just can't find anyone reliable - it is more work for me having a sharer sometimes than not having one :(
 
Fides said:
Another way of looking at it is you could pay £30 a pop for a lesson/hack at riding school twice a week - thus you are saving yourself £35 by doing the jobs. Plus with a lesson all you get is to ride - there is no interaction and the horse will not even know who you are.

Or you could put the £35 a week saving into putting the horse on full livery for your days and just ride, and still probably save £15 a week ;)

Fwiw I do think £25 for 2 days is a bit pricey - I have charged (and paid) that for 3-4 days.
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Riding lessons are extortionate aren't they? Often the teaching isn't up to scratch either. One of the reasons I share - to get a decent instructor, you often need your 'own' horse for them to come out to teach you.

I can do extra days for the same price - the owner is laid back about it. Sadly I am unable to do this - and if I had more time, I'd just buy my own one :D
 
Fides said:
Not all sharers are like you - I commend you for it. In my experience most even move on when winter comes and it stops being so 'nice'.

Can I clone you please?

I would love for a horse mad teen to be able to experience my mare. She's totally brilliant but I just can't find anyone reliable - it is more work for me having a sharer sometimes than not having one :(
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I would love to be a horse mad teen again :)

Whenever I have started new share arrangements I've made sure it is December/January. Then you get the feel for the horse in the worst possible situation, and you will know if it will be worth it. You also get to show the owner that you're not just a 'fair weather friend'. Unfortunately a lot of owners don't start out with any hope for the sharer to be good. You have to prove yourself to be reliable. It shouldn't be like that, but I think the unreliable few spoil it for the rest of us.

Having said that sometimes summer comes around and you wonder if it has all been worth it when they've been on spring grass and shot off with you clinging on across a field!
 
I have looked after horses on full livery where the owner just turns up and rides, that is not what I call owning a horse but if you have no time you have to pay for a full livery service. If you want that experience I think you have to pay more than £25 a week because you would have the rent of the horse and the services required to keep it. Where ever you decide to keep your horse their will be pluses and minuses, as a sharer you have to decide what its worth for you, I did not charge my sharer anything but the costs being what they are I can the understand why people would want some payment or what's in for them? For me being on DIY the fact that two days a week I did not have to bring the horse in was worth more than money and they were nice people.

For some people going down the field on a summers evening and picking a barrow of poo is relaxation, its all part of the experience. My husband used to fly gliders, he did not like the bigger clubs because they do need helpers they have permanent staff and half the fun was doing odd jobs on the field. I think you have to explain to your husband that you are buying into an experience not just renting a horse for a ride.
 
Not being able to ride if he has been to a competition, fair enough he may need a day off, that is taking the p*** if you are still paying, the school being flooded or booked up is bad enough, can you not hack instead, I totally see your husbands point I think the owner is using you if she stops you riding when she gets the benefit of having extra cash, having 2 days off and him exercised when she allows, you may think you have a bond but you could probably feel the same for another horse it is not limited to one.
 
I think what people sometimes forget is that the owner has invested a lot of money (or time which is also money) in a horse plus the tack, insurance, grooming kit, stable tools and so. If you think that just a half decent saddle, bridle, numnah and boots are not going to give much change from a grand...then add the purchase price of the horse and the day to day running costs (livery, feed, bedding, farrier, insurance and routine vet care) and all of a sudden £12.50 a day plus jobs are a bargain for the use of a horse and all the kit!

I often hear people say that they only get 2 or 3 days and they pay all the livery for instance and it's not fair - but they aren't taking into account all the other costs plus the fact that the horse isn't their total responsibility as it is for the owner.
 
I am both a sharer and a sharee (not sure whichg way round is which!) My boy can no longer jump so I have a sharer to hack him while I share and compete on my friend's. I pay for the 'riding' costs (shoes and extra feed) and his owner pays for his keep so this is what I have always asked my sharer to pay for too as otherwise both horses would probably be barefoot and hairy in the field.

I had a great sharer for 6 years and she preferred to pay me a monthly cost (we worked out what it would average out at) than cover shoeing costs directly and buying feed as and when, as it was far easier for one person to manage that side of it - for the same reason (me managing it all for both horses) I pay those costs directly to the farrier etc for my share horse.

My sharer was fab and insisted on continuing to pay her monthly contribution even when he was off work for 7 months. I saved it and bought her a really nice warm winter coat for the yard as she was always complaining about being cold! A bit of give and take goes a long way.

Having lost my last sharer when she moved away, in this climate I found it more difficult to find another sharer. I decided getting him ridden was my priority so currently have someone very good but who for very good reasons can't pay me anything and can't really do anything at the yard without me as she has no car. We both agreed she could ride until I found someone who could help me out with costs and jobs but she's so good I haven't bothered to keep looking. I'm lucky I can afford it and she gives me lessons on my share horse as well as sorting out my flat-work phobic horse. I've never asked for lessons but she enjoys it and I think she feels she's giving something back.

That's a long winded way of saying there's no standard agreement for everyone, but as long as both parties are happy it doesn't matter what the arrangement is.
 
cbmcts said:
I think what people sometimes forget is that the owner has invested a lot of money (or time which is also money) in a horse plus the tack, insurance, grooming kit, stable tools and so. If you think that just a half decent saddle, bridle, numnah and boots are not going to give much change from a grand...then add the purchase price of the horse and the day to day running costs (livery, feed, bedding, farrier, insurance and routine vet care) and all of a sudden £12.50 a day plus jobs are a bargain for the use of a horse and all the kit!

I often hear people say that they only get 2 or 3 days and they pay all the livery for instance and it's not fair - but they aren't taking into account all the other costs plus the fact that the horse isn't their total responsibility as it is for the owner.
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That is the owners choice, they should know what they are taking on before getting a horse, if they then decide to try and cover some of the running costs by having someone contribute that is fine but to then restrict riding by going to a competition the day before or being on a yard with poor facilities or restricted access to the school is not really fair, to expect the sharer to pay and work while the horse is injured is also unfair if using emotional attachment to do so.
I can see the good side of sharing but at the end of the day the owner is fully in control and is gaining at least as much as the sharer if they are reliable and do a good job with the horse, if unreliable it seems easy enough to get rid and find another person.
 
MsChops said:
What are your views?
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I am with your husband tbh. Just because its accepted in the equine world, doesn't make it ok. And I've been a sharer.

I would not expect anyone to pay to shovel ****, but then I have also been a groom and have no romantic ideas about shovelling ****. So if you were my sharer and I was confident your treatment and care of the horse was what I wanted and you wanted to do chores, I would not charge you to ride. If you didnt want to do the chores and I had to pay someone else to do it to cover me not going up,then I might charge you to cover the cost.
 
cbmcts said:
I think what people sometimes forget is that the owner has invested a lot of money (or time which is also money) in a horse plus the tack, insurance, grooming kit, stable tools and so. If you think that just a half decent saddle, bridle, numnah and boots are not going to give much change from a grand...then add the purchase price of the horse and the day to day running costs (livery, feed, bedding, farrier, insurance and routine vet care) and all of a sudden £12.50 a day plus jobs are a bargain for the use of a horse and all the kit!
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owners choice, noone's forcing them to have their own horse, or get someone else in to look after it, or help towards costs (and I have three so I've not forgotten ;) ). Having a horse and all the expense that goes with it, doesnt give the owner the right to expect anyone to subsidise their luxury hobby-whether that be vet, groom, yard owner, farrier, bodyworker, instructor or photographer, saddler, sharer etc etc (don't mean 'you', I mean generally).
 
be positive said:
Not being able to ride if he has been to a competition, fair enough he may need a day off, that is taking the p*** if you are still paying, I totally see your husbands point I think the owner is using you if she stops you riding when she gets the benefit of having extra cash, having 2 days off and him exercised when she allows, you may think you have a bond but you could probably feel the same for another horse it is not limited to one.
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I think if you pay to loan and do all the jobs you should be able to ride every loaning day-if you choose not to ride that is your choice
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm afraid I tend to agree with your husband. I think it's madness to pay that much when you don't always actually get to ride anyway. Essentially you are paying someone to do their chores for them twice a week. Much as I love mucking out and all the yard chores etc, I love it because it's my horse, not someone else's, and I can reap the benefits of putting the hard work in to keep her.

I think £25 per week for two days of chores, and not always getting to ride, is very steep to be honest - I wouldn't be willing to pay it.
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Yes I agree, I think its a bit steep. Is there no option to hack out even if the school is booked up?
 
be positive said:
That is the owners choice, they should know what they are taking on before getting a horse, if they then decide to try and cover some of the running costs by having someone contribute that is fine but to then restrict riding by going to a competition the day before or being on a yard with poor facilities or restricted access to the school is not really fair, to expect the sharer to pay and work while the horse is injured is also unfair if using emotional attachment to do so.
I can see the good side of sharing but at the end of the day the owner is fully in control and is gaining at least as much as the sharer if they are reliable and do a good job with the horse, if unreliable it seems easy enough to get rid and find another person.
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I missed the bit about not being able to ride because the horse was tired from competing when I replied (sorry OP) and while that sounds really unfair, it also sounds like the owner would be happy to swop days if need be but the OP isn't available other days? I may also have got that wrong though! The school situation would drive me mad if that happened often but every yard has it's issues...the OP had a choice to look else where too as she would if the horse was off work for an extended period of time. If a sharer continues working and paying while they can't ride, it no different to what the owner has to do in the same circumstances, except they don't have to pay the vet bill.

MotherOfChickens said:
owners choice, noone's forcing them to have their own horse, or get someone else in to look after it, or help towards costs (and I have three so I've not forgotten ;) ). Having a horse and all the expense that goes with it, doesnt give the owner the right to expect anyone to subsidise their luxury hobby-whether that be vet, groom, yard owner, farrier, bodyworker, instructor or photographer, saddler, sharer etc etc (don't mean 'you', I mean generally).
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Of course it's the owners choice but sharers sometimes forget that the owner is effectively subsidising their riding by paying a larger share of the costs. By that I mean that they don't charge as much as it really costs if you were doing a true daily cost.

The point I'm making is that the arrangement has to be mutually beneficial. The owner gets financial plus physical help. The sharer loses out on making the decisions that they would by owning but on a positive side they can have a horse a few days a week for a fairly low sum of money including the contact that generally isn't available at a RS or similar. If you just want to ride any equine with 4 legs and a tail you go to a RS, pays your money and have a lesson but you don't get all the silly things like really getting to know a horse, the cuddles and (yes I know it can be a grind) the stable management - there's something special about a horse that whinnys to you even if it only stomach love :)

Back to explaining to the non horsey people - when you hire/lease a car the company prices it per day/month so it not only recovers the maintenance costs and time off road but also makes back the purchase price and a profit (inc the resale value). For instance if I hire a new Ford Mondeo I pay £60 per day. Let's assume that the car is hired 300 days per year and that they sell the car at 3 years old at auction. (Calculator out :) ) So a car that cost them £20k in yr 1 makes them £54k over 3 yrs plus the resale value, about £9k according to Parkers price guide . That's not a bad return even with with fixing bits and pieces and nobody objects to the car hire companies doing this. Riding schools are the equestrian equivalent of car hires but I can't think of any other sport or hobby that has a similar arrangement to sharing or loans as is normal for us. Maybe that is why non horsey people don't understand it?
 
I think it depends on the location as well; shares in London/south east tend to be more expensive. However, if the owner is competing the day before and the horse needs the following day off, then you should be given the option to switch your days.

It also depends on the quality of the horse and the level of the rider; if the horse is well schooled (a genuine schoolmaster would be more) and the level of the rider (if the rider is able to bring the horse on then I wouldn't expect to be paying anything - in fact the opposite!)
 
Mine pays nothing, and in fact I sometimes feel like I should pay her :lol: Shes completely reliable, looks after him brilliantly and genuinely likes spending time with him. Shes also way more dedicated than me and rides everytime she comes up, whereas I'm bone idle and only ride if it suit me :lol:
 
It does seem to me OP as if you are paying quite a lot for 2 (sometimes) days when you do the jobs as well. However, if you enjoy it and you have a good relationship with the horse and its owner and you don't mind paying, then I would stick with it - yes you might get one where you are not paying but personally I would probably be prepared to pay £25 a week to have that good relationship rather than a lot of the situations that you read about on here where it doesn't work out. I only ever ride my horses on 2 days a week and that works out at rather a lot more than £25 a week! :)
 
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