Sheep worrying

[Polonaise]

Bloody dog has this week decided that sheep are interesting having never shown any interest before, unfortunately this has manifested as escaping at the slightest chance and reappearing 30 minutes later cornering the neighbours sheep. Chosen the worse time of year to start, they're late lambing so no babies yet but obviously not the time to be stressing them.
He is of pointer type and despite trying a couple of trainers and many months long lining does not have a reliable recall (ok lets be honest, any recall). He's an intelligent dog and learns voice commands very easily but tends to view them as suggestions rather then commands. He is obsessed with running and birds and there's no reward in the world that's better then those two things. He will chase horses and cats but not "his" horses and cat so apart from the obvious fence re-enforcements I was thinking a bit of "desensitisation".

Today the sheep have sensibly moved to the top field away our boundary, I spent some time on a long line rewarding every time he turned his attention away from the sheep in the distance or the wool on the fence, interesting how beautifully he points when you don't want him to! Also went over 'come' and 'leave' again as not done for a while. By the end he was walking past the (currently empty) sheep field looking anywhere but at it. Am I right in thinking if he doesn't respond to a command I ignore him rather then repeat it? The neighbours have a couple of lambs left from last year that didn't grow enough, would it be sensible/reasonable to ask if I could borrow them for a bit or take my dog into their field (on lead) to continue training?

Any other amazing tips for teaching a badly trained dog that sheep are boring? Need to nip this in the bud before the neighbours stop being quite so reasonable.

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

If you are anywhere near the forest of dean I can put you in touch with a trainer who would be up to the job.

 

[Polonaise]

If you are anywhere near the forest of dean I can put you in touch with a trainer who would be up to the job.

Thanks, Derbyshire unfortunately

 

[Clodagh]

A location would be handy as I think you need professional help, as has been said. Obviously from now on dog must never be anywhere offlead, including in your garden if it is less than 100% secure.

Sorry, cross posted and I don't know anyone in your area. Have you asked the farmer what he suggests? His second suggestion as I imagine his first will be bullet.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

The farmer next door put another neighbours pointer in a pen with some blackie ewes which sorted it. Not saying this is the best way, just one way.
I do feel for you, my setter was similar with the bird and recall thing as a youngster (understandably) and it does feel like an unwinable battle but one you must get sorted.

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

ah, sorry, don't know anyone up that way.

I have gone down the route of de-sensitization with sheep, but tbh have my own sheep and have the dogs round the sheep pretty much every day until they are totally blase about it (the dogs, I mean, not the sheep). It also depends on the 'drive' of the dog.

This has got some ideas in it - although please disregard the final chapter as how anyone can do this and not have the dog associate the punishment with people (and therefore set the dog up with a fear/dislike of people) is completely beyond me - he does say that the owner should not do it, but I don't believe even a trainer should do it. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-control-predatory-chasing-dogs/dp/1409258270

And this is also good - http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dtb1126

 

[Maesfen]

Just be aware (as I'm sure you are) that any farmer is totally within his right to shoot any dog which is seen to worry livestock and that includes just running them. You'll have to be totally responsible and do the decent thing if it continues to be a problem that you can't stop; it doesn't matter if your neighbours have two or two hundred sheep, the principles the same.

You're going to have to make it tough love and make the dog even regret looking at sheep (or any livestock for that matter) Better that than either have him shot or told to put down.

The ewes in a pen often works.

I think you need Alec to give you the low down on 'desensitizing to livestock'; he's bound to have some decent ideas.

 

[Equi]

If it was my dog, i would have to chain it up when im not about. It is not worth it to the farmer or the dog if it escapes.

 

[Orangehorse]

A local neighbour lost his dogs and came round to find out if we had seen them. We asked if they chased sheep, as we had brother-in-law's grazing in a large field. He replied no, they had sheep in the field next to the garden and the dogs had never shown any interest.

The next day my OH and son found the dogs in with "our" sheep, they had caused quite a bit of damage. As a) the sheep weren't ours and b) the land wasn't ours either, it was some we have for grazing I said to son that he mustn't shoot the dogs, and they managed to catch them. Two sheep died, but several lost their lambs, brother-in-law put the matter into the hands of a Land Agent and it cost the owner of the dog about £3,000 in compensation, cost of vet visits, damage to sheep, loss of lambs. Insurance will only pay out a small amount.

I guess that the dogs saw the sheep in their next door field as "their" sheep and part of the family, but coming across a field of sheep that ran away, instinct took over.

 

[twiggy2]

how many times has your dog been able to chase th sheep, regardless of what training route you take every time your dog chases the sheep an unwanted behaviour is reinforced-you must make sure the dog cannot get to the sheep

 

[jrp204]

Firstly, make sure your dog cannot get out of your property! It is thought that dogs that chase sheep have a lead deficiency......easily remedied by your local sheep farmer.
I am actually amazed your neighbours were 'reasonable'.

 

[popsdosh]

Firstly, make sure your dog cannot get out of your property! It is thought that dogs that chase sheep have a lead deficiency......easily remedied by your local sheep farmer.
I am actually amazed your neighbours were 'reasonable'.

I have only had to resort to shooting once . We used to offer locals the oportunity to have their dogs sheep proofed at lambing time. However two Afgans killed five ewes one day and against my better nature I took them back to the owner only for them to be back in the ewes within 2 hours , They never had that oportunity again.

To be honest your best course of action is to ask a friendly sheep farmer to help and not be too precious about what needs to be done as its for the dogs good in the long run.

If you dont think it works tell my old sheep dogs who will not come anywhere near ewes in a pen and go very deaf if I call them. We used to use them to help bonding ewes and lambs some times but the dogs get very wise to it.

 

[Alec Swan]

Thanks, Derbyshire unfortunately

There are some highly competent shepherds/dogmen in Derbyshire. Your best route may be to find one and seek their advice.

Alec.

 

[ycbm]

Bloody dog has this week decided that sheep are interesting having never shown any interest before, unfortunately this has manifested as escaping at the slightest chance and reappearing 30 minutes later cornering the neighbours sheep. Chosen the worse time of year to start, they're late lambing so no babies yet but obviously not the time to be stressing them.
He is of pointer type and despite trying a couple of trainers and many months long lining does not have a reliable recall (ok lets be honest, any recall). He's an intelligent dog and learns voice commands very easily but tends to view them as suggestions rather then commands. He is obsessed with running and birds and there's no reward in the world that's better then those two things. He will chase horses and cats but not "his" horses and cat so apart from the obvious fence re-enforcements I was thinking a bit of "desensitisation".

Today the sheep have sensibly moved to the top field away our boundary, I spent some time on a long line rewarding every time he turned his attention away from the sheep in the distance or the wool on the fence, interesting how beautifully he points when you don't want him to! Also went over 'come' and 'leave' again as not done for a while. By the end he was walking past the (currently empty) sheep field looking anywhere but at it. Am I right in thinking if he doesn't respond to a command I ignore him rather then repeat it? The neighbours have a couple of lambs left from last year that didn't grow enough, would it be sensible/reasonable to ask if I could borrow them for a bit or take my dog into their field (on lead) to continue training?

Any other amazing tips for teaching a badly trained dog that sheep are boring? Need to nip this in the bud before the neighbours stop being quite so reasonable.

Can I ask why the dog is able to chase the sheep? If he was near me, he would have been shot by now. Can he not be fenced in or tied up?

 

[AmyMay]

My dog will happily chase sheep. She's simply not given the opportunity.

 

[Bosworth]

mine wont chase sheep, they are around sheep daily on the farm where i keep my horse. yes I had an issue once where Flodden chased I caught him, and he was smacked hard and told off. And kept close to heel and cowed by my disapproval as I made him walk back and fore through those sheep until he didnt dream of even glancing at them. Yes it was hard and yes I hated smacking him. And forcing the issue. But now I can walk on Dartmoor, through a flock of sheep and he wont even look at them, just carries on sniffing around and playing with my whippet. My whippet is so desperate for approval that she wouldnt even dream of looking at a sheep. Both are used for herding the sheep on the farm when we want them in the barns. We havent got sheep dogs, so my two are allowed to bring the sheep in. They know they are not allowed to chase, just follow along under command, and run across the behind them if they run off. It is hard, but cruel to be kind is acceptable in this instance. Better I smack my dog than a farmer shoots it.

 

[Goldenstar]

You just have to make sure you are never out of control of the dog you have to whatever it takes to achieve this .
There will be a trainer locally to help with sheep training you need to ask around .
The person I take my gun dog to keeps some old ewes for sheep training however the time to do this training is before the dog has learnt to case sheep your on the back foot now and compete control of the dog at all times may be the only way forward .

 

[Dry Rot]

Dog owners should work on the assumption that all young dogs will chase sheep given the opportunity. Initially, it will be curiosity and just following instinct. Then instincts are reinforced by success in catching or herding. Prevention is better than cure.

I suggested 'aversion therapy' on the thread started by the owner wanting to stop a young spaniel from chasing free range hens. That is achieved by making it seem that the hens caused the pain. not the owner. When my GSD pups started to chase my free range hens, I simply set off after them and gave them a smack on the rump with a schooling whip. I countered this by calling them to me and making a fuss of them even though this was immediately after the hen encounter. Any dead hens are hung on the electric fence. A very bad video clip below shows the result. The pups will now run through a flock of my hens ignoring them as if they weren't there. Chasing just isn't fun!

My method of turning an older dog off sheep is to walk it, on the lead, through a field of sheep -- obviously with the owner's permission. I keep a switch (thin ash, hazel, or willow plant) in my right hand tight up to my leg so it is invisbible to the dog and have the lead in my left hand. Any interest in sheep gets a swift tap on the nose with the switch and a firm "No" or "Leave". I regularly stroke and soft talk the dog when it ignores or looks away from the sheep. Another good time is when the farmer is sorting sheep and they are let out, one by one, at the end of the race. Even a hint that the dog wants to chase and it gets a tap on the nose. I like to see them look away in obvious distaste every time a sheep runs out of th end of the race! .

There were objections to this method on the other thread because it hurts the dog. (You don't use lunge whips, schooling whips, bits, force head collars, tc. on your horses?). Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. I'd suggest the above is 'neccessary suffering' and a lot less painful than two barrels from a 12 bore at 50 yards -- and it eliminates pain and stress to the poor sheep!

Dogs should either be securely locked up (in the kennel, secure garden, or the house) unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. Any dog loose in a field of sheep can legally be shot. That's the law.

[video=youtube_share;q3GGXkhr_ig]https://youtu.be/q3GGXkhr_ig[/video]

 

[Maesfen]

Hurrah for Bosworth and Dry Rot. Absolute total sense.

We have free range bantams and right from the word go, all pups even the hound pups are taken to them with the other dogs. The other dogs know what's going to happen and you can see them rolling their eyes and hanging back smirking but as soon as a pup even looks at a hen it is chastized, if it tries to chase it is given a good smack and it's amazing how quickly they learn from our displeasure. Within days they are able to go through them and not look at them even if they fly away. I've got an old photo somewhere of them even eating with the hens in the middle of them. Once they've learned not to chase hens, it carries over to other stock too; they have to know you will carry out strong retribution if they so much as look at them.
Do it and mean it; it's so much better than a bullet.

 

[Polonaise]

Some great advice thank you very much.

To clarify the dog is locked in the house when unsupervised and on lead outside of the fenced area around the house. There have been two incidents in a few days (no previous interest in sheep), the first due to a gate being left open and the second due to him managing to get past my partner when he was struggling with something else. He's so bloody quick he's out of sight in seconds so although you know he's gone which direction is a mystery as he will double back when you're not looking. He is not an aggressive dog, he's doing it for fun but obviously I am aware this can have serious consequences for the sheep and whilst I love my dog I agree farmers are within their rights to shoot dogs attacking livestock. We have sort professional help with recall previously but he will never be reliable. Obviously the solution is to always check the gates before letting the dogs out and tie them up if trying to carry hay/lead horses through a boundary gate but if we can reduce his drive to chase sheep as well before it becomes ingrained then so much the better. He has naturally desensitised himself to the horses that he would chase as a young dog but ignores now, no specific training, he's just realised they're boring.
Yes he will have got a good slap when my partner caught him the second time (the neighbours found him the first time), he was still sulking when I got home some hours later. The difficulty with aversion techniques is timing and the risk of making the dog aggressive due to fear or associating the handler with fear, this is a dog that we strongly suspect has been abused in his former life and can react excessively to pain, we totally lost house training when we moved because I put an electric fence up around their toilet area as a temporary measure and both dogs quickly became afraid of going outside at all. Having said that I fully agree that a quick slap or shock is better then getting shot but it's not something I would be in a hurry to do without professional guidance.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

how old is he OP?

 

[Clodagh]

Our hound pups were always beaten up by the brown hens soon after they arrived, they always went back to kennels 100% steady to poultry.
As has been said the trouble with your young dog is he has learned what a self rewarding past time it is. If a hound riots out with the pack it is given a severe 'rating' by the whipper in, when I say rating I mean you really hear it happen but as the alternative is death a beating isn't too bad - as you have also said.
I wonder if he is a rescue from abroad? Pointer type, cruelly treated? I have never met one of them with any recall or socail graces at all but haven't met many, to be fair.

 

[Polonaise]

He's an Irish stray that came to us via rescue at about a year old, emaciated but to be fair has a sensitive tummy so would have been difficult to keep weight on. He's now 6. We assume poor treatment as he was very specifically terrified of people standing next to open car doors or any indication he might be put in a car and reacts very fearfully to raised voices and angry people, no domestics in this house with the dog inside! As with most HPR types he's extremely loving and affectionate but shows a little too much instinct to hunt and flush and not enough to retrieve or stay on point long enough to grab him.
The labrador is sooo much easier, walk feed sleep repeat!

 

[stencilface]

I feel your pain, my dog did this last year and I didn't get there in time. Completely my fault, sheep were on our land grazing for us and I thought they were all on the opposite hill far away. There was one in a bush I didn't see I think it was started a few years ago when some sheep had escaped into our garden (nearby farmers fence was horrendous, they weren't even in an adjacent field!) and he chased them, but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do.

I'm very wary now, and the dog is only off lead when I know no sheep are around. I know he's not desperate to get them, he won't jump at a fence etc if I'm there. But I would love to desensitise him to them by putting him in with a ewe. The local park where there are no sheep, or the beach are my best places for off lead walks now. He's not small either as a GSD x Rottie, so if he did get away I've no illusions about what would happen. I got him as a 4yo, he's now 8 and despite being older and a big dog, my goodness he can shift!

 

[jrp204]

Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.

Quote "but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do."
That's how 116 ewes were killed 2 weeks ago.

 

[crabbymare]

how longor how far from the house is the boundary of the area he is let out in? If its only been when he has escaped how about using one of the invisible fences with underground wires that gives a static shock if they go near it? its not a huge electric shock but as he is not long haired it could work well with him and is better than a lead injection. you can also get the ones that work on sending a signal that has an effect a certain distance from the sender unit and I would think since he may have been abused at some point that it may be effective as once he knows its there and when to stop you can be seen to have nothing to do with the static. They are a bit expensive but would be a quick fix and probably easier than trying to train a dog that thinks lalala I cant hear you

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

He's an Irish stray that came to us via rescue at about a year old, emaciated but to be fair has a sensitive tummy so would have been difficult to keep weight on. He's now 6. We assume poor treatment as he was very specifically terrified of people standing next to open car doors or any indication he might be put in a car and reacts very fearfully to raised voices and angry people, no domestics in this house with the dog inside! As with most HPR types he's extremely loving and affectionate but shows a little too much instinct to hunt and flush and not enough to retrieve or stay on point long enough to grab him.
The labrador is sooo much easier, walk feed sleep repeat!

I'm going to stick my neck out (again) and probably to howls of derision say that if your dog has a history of being fearful to people, please do not take her to someone who is going to give her a hiding, for obvious reasons. You need to either a) manage the dog (leads, tie outs in the garden, taken to places such as parks or forestry where there are no sheep for walks) OR find someone who will use an electric shock collar in a way that the dog does not associate the punishment with a person at all - ie, the dog wears a dummy collar for a considerable period of time before the training so there is no association between the collar, the human putting the collar on, and the punishment, and that this person can use the collar with precision timing and to maximum effect with minimum amount of shocks to the dog. It CAN be done, and I know trainers who do it for severe chasers with an excellent success rate, including dogs who have killed several sheep. The best of these trainers will also show you how to teach a positive recall away from sheep, on a line, and also how to re-direct your dog's chase instinct to a more legitimate outlet, both of which tactics will again minimise the amount of shock necessary for a successful outcome. The other method, to put her in with scary sheep *can* work but I have seen a) dogs being injured; b) sheep being injured and c) an ineffective outcome as the dog does not generalise the training - he avoids sheep in a small area, but will still chase in an open field. The way it is often done, which is person in with dog and hitting or otherwise scaring the animal every time he looks at sheep would not imho be suitable for your dog because of the fear issues you describe above.

*stands back and waits for the conversation to continue of how ridiculous this suggestion is and how beating the dog up is the way forward*

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

how longor how far from the house is the boundary of the area he is let out in? If its only been when he has escaped how about using one of the invisible fences with underground wires that gives a static shock if they go near it? its not a huge electric shock but as he is not long haired it could work well with him and is better than a lead injection. you can also get the ones that work on sending a signal that has an effect a certain distance from the sender unit and I would think since he may have been abused at some point that it may be effective as once he knows its there and when to stop you can be seen to have nothing to do with the static. They are a bit expensive but would be a quick fix and probably easier than trying to train a dog that thinks lalala I cant hear you

although this seems like a reasonable suggestion, I will say that I have seen several dogs whose owners have used this, and the dogs have developed a fear of the garden and will barely leave the house, and also I have heard of dogs who, when sufficiently aroused, have bolted through the 'fence' anyway. Please secure your garden, or at least a part of your garden where your dog can be safe without worrying about avoiding a shock ... she does not sound the most confident dog and it is easy to get unwanted fallout from these kinds of devices.

 

[stencilface]

Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.

Oh, know I know that! It was just the first time the sheep started off in our garden and he went from there, so in fact the sheep were trespassing not my dog, they started it! I know its not good, and I'd love to desensitise him, and I know now that him chasing them does end in disaster. Again, both times the sheep were on 'his' land, the second time was my fault, but honestly the first time we didn't know the sheep were in our garden til he found them!

Everyone makes mistakes, and most (all?) farmers will have had a dog at some point that needed reminding. The vet I called for the sheep (it was still alive, but didn't recover) was very understanding, which was what I needed after a fraught morning not being able to get hold of anyone to sort the sheep (farmer was at the game fair and uncontactable).

In all honesty, some days I look forward to when my dog can no longer run like that, as my life will be a lot less stressful, which is a horrid thing to admit.

 

[Polonaise]

Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.

Quote "but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do."
That's how 116 ewes were killed 2 weeks ago.

Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive). I have been with a farmer when he found a large bull terrier type dog hanging from the neck of his heifer, I suggested a gun but he managed to remove the dog easily and chain it up. It was ultimately PTS but in a more controlled environment and the owner given chance to say farewells. Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset.