Shivers in the competition horse - experiences?

Matafleur

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I know this is probably more veterinary but I was hoping more people in here may have experience in managing a comp horse with shivers.

A bit of background:

I have a 7 yr old KWPN mare that I bought as a 3 yr old and had broken in the spring of her 4 yr old year. She has good movement and a very good hindleg - often commented on by judges, graders etc. Ever since I've had her she has been a bit of a pain to shoe/stud behind and is noticeably worse on the left hind.

I had her looked at by the vet at the end of the eventing season in her 5 yr old year (during which she was consistently DC at PN and went Novice at her last event, 1 stop XC because I bottled it but otherwise very good). I was worried that even though there was no loss of performance there may be some pain in the leg as she was so difficult with it. Vet said no lameness evident, gave her a very small amount of sedation at which point she picked leg up without any fuss.

6 yr old year was less successful, very good at PN and 4 flts SJ and clear xc at first novice, DC at next PN but the E SJ at next Novice. I then lost confidence in the SJ and she started stopping with me. Trainer rode her and she jumped fine - he said she was not in front of my leg enough and so I was getting found out a bit when the fences got bigger. Dropped her right back to small stuff and worked on her being more forward and things improved again. I then fell pregnant before we had got back to previous level and she went on loan to my dressage trainer.

She is showing loads of promise at proper dressage, very good ability to collect, superb canter blah blah blah. But, she now needs a tiny, tiny amount of sedalin to be shod behind.

So (after my epic rambling!), does anyone have any experience of shiverers and does her behaviour sound typical? I think I have a bit of a niggle in my head about my vet diagnosing shivering as farrier has said she doesn't shoe like a typical shiverer.

Is there anything I can do with regard to her diet/management that may improve things? I have read about Shivers being linked to EPSM and that high oil etc may help?

The only sign of any problems in her ridden work are that when new lateral work is introduced she finds it harder to cross to the right(?) I think. This only seems to be when she is first learning though as is fairly even both ways once the work is established. She reins back with no problems but can look stilted behind when you first lead her out of the stable.

Thanks for reading - I'm sure I have missed out some vital info but if anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful :)
 

amage

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How tiny is the tiny tiny amount of sedalin? It doesn't make sense that a minuscule amount could make such a difference. Sounds to me like there is some niggling soft tissue issue but I wouldn't jump to shiverer diagnosis either
 

Matafleur

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1ml according to trainer - she is still on loan at moment but i see her at least once a week.

she was routinely seen by a McTimony Chiro and never had any real issues. Vet did comment that she seemed quite tight across her loins and that this may be making things worse.

Soft tissue would be preferable to shivers!
 

JNH Sporthorses

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I have a friend who has a horse they imported in from Holland who had shivers. He was brought over as a weedy 3yr old and with pleant of work over the years and effort put in by the rider, the horse has now competed at Foxhunter plus level, without much problem. I think to be honest, each horse deals with things differenlty and no horse is the same as another.
 

lisab

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Mine had this last year. I wouldn't have noticed if he hadn't have fallen on the road on me last summer, so I started using road studs. His back legs trembled a lot when I was putting the studs in. Both legs were trembling but the near-side one was worse.

I stupidly googled it and was horrified to read tales of "spinal damage, shoot it", "dangerous to ride, shoot it" etc etc. So I got the vet.

Vet said he was a bit of a shiverer and that they don't know what causes it and there's no treatment for it and to carry on and ignore it.

Mine didn't suffer any lack of performance like you have mentioned though.

I think my horse's shivering may have been the result of a soft-tissue injury (he's a chronic and regular rearer/spinner hacking out).

I don't use the road studs any more and don't compete on grass very often so don't stud up often, but when I do, he only starts shivering if I keep his legs held up for a long time. When I was using the road studs, he started shivering almost immediately.

It seems to have sorted itself out and hopefully, yours will too.
 

Alfami

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Been there, got that particular T-shirt!

I've had mine from 4yo (just backed). He evented successfully at Intro/PN as a 5 & 6yo, at the end of which I then moved up to Novice, with mixed success. I had no idea he was a shiverer until he was about 7yo. I thought he was just being an ar$e!

He was capable, but became increasingly difficult to ride. He's got more difficult as the years progress and is now languishing in my field as I have little or no time to ride him (he's now 16). He too needs Sedalin to be shod behind (he gets 3ml, he's a big 16.3), but frankly has always been a bit of a git and was difficult to get studs into at competitions.

Personally (& this is only my mutterings, feel free to ignore), I think in my horses case the shivering has affected (or is caused by - who knows which way around it is :confused:) his muscular comfort, which in turn makes it difficult for him to 'sit'. Over the years he's found it harder and harder to 'rock back' at a jump, much preferring to pull the reins through my hands and launch on a long one. Frankly now it's not so much fun over bigger fences, but small ones are Ok and he enjoys them! He is finding the flat work harder and harder too. He has gradually destroyed my SJ confidence though, because he's so difficult to adjust - again, i think because he's sore/thinks it's going to hurt etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were resultant hock issues too, although his flexion tests (also requiring Sedalin) would presume not.

For what it's worth, last winter I fed Alfa A Oil, Top Spec Balancer and Outshine and yes, I do think it made a difference. Now I just need to find a way to get oil into him during the summer!

Anyway, I shall watch this thread with interest! Good luck with your mare.
 

Matafleur

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Thanks for your replies, doesn't sound all that promising though! :rolleyes:

I wouldn't really say there is any loss of performance as such other than the slight preference in the lateral work. I think the issues with the jumping were a rubbish rider issue as we were at the edge of my ability really.

Interestingly she does seem to go in phases over how bad she is to shoe, we can't seem to connect this with any obvious change in her workload/routine though. She is never brilliant but when I needed to stud her regularly I did a lot of clicker work with her to reward her for picking her feet up. She did improve when I did this but would revert as soon as either of us were at all stressed. I'm afraid I have smacked her on the bum in the past when I have been struggling and she has pulled her foot away for the 10th time but then you can't get her foot off the floor at all.

She was always slightly easier to stud if I had ridden her around quietly for 10 minutes beforehand.

Her dressage is just getting better and better and she sits in the canter very easily, she is also showing natural ability for passage although this is only played with every so often as she is not yet strong enough.
 

ihatework

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Although mine doesn't shiver he does show a stringhalt, which would show a lot of similarities.

First and foremost is diet - and I think high fibre / low starch for these horses is important. Then going down the high oil route as needed.

Movement is key too - plenty of turnout and considerate warm up routines. If you need to stud, do try walking your horse around a bit before putting the studs in.

Other thing to bear in mind is that they are likely to compensate a bit, shift their weight etc, which long term could build up into an issue. So regular physio and plenty of suppling/straightening exercises under saddle.

Might be worth playing around with rugging too, if she isn't a hot horse she may benefit from an extra layer.
 

Matafleur

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Thanks IHW, I think we will try adding oil to her diet and see if that make a difference. Not sure what she is currently fed but will look into it later today.

Interesting about the movement as she was out almost 24/7 with me and then stabled a lot of the time when she first went on loan and now turned out a lot again. May try increasing her rugging too and maybe try rugging her heavily before she is shod too see if she is much better when her muscles are warmer.

:)
 

TGM

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There are lots of competition horses with a mild shiver - it is just that not many people talk about it!

As regards shoeing, a patient farrier can often find just the right way to hold the foot to make it easier for the horse. My OH shoes a shiverer who used to need sedation for shoeing with previous farrier, but doesn't now.
 

Matafleur

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There are lots of competition horses with a mild shiver - it is just that not many people talk about it!

As regards shoeing, a patient farrier can often find just the right way to hold the foot to make it easier for the horse. My OH shoes a shiverer who used to need sedation for shoeing with previous farrier, but doesn't now.

I do seem to hear about more of them the more that I look into it! It is a good thing I suppose and hopefully means she will have a productive comp career. I had been half thinking about breeding from her at some stage but if she is a shiverer then that's out of the window.

I have to say that my farrier has been brilliant with her and is very patient, but so far we haven't found a position that she is sufficiently comfortable in. He does also say that she doesn't shoe like a typical shiverer (as he shoes quite a few) which is another thing that makes me dither about the vets diagnosis. Although she does meet the signs in other ways.
 

Maisie2

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My daughter had a 15h. cob/tb which was a shiverer. He competed regularly as wh/sj/xc from the age of 5 until he was 16 with very few problems (other than brakes:eek:) and was very successful. She managed his studs by resting his toe on the ground whilst screwing them in and we had a very good farrier. He is now 26 and a field ornament, the farrier is finding it quite hard to shoe the affected leg but he perseveres! He has always been able to rein back without a problem. He has oil and now has Devils Claw which my daughter thinks is helping him. I think putting a massage pad over his back would probably help a well. Hope this is somewhat reassuring, ours was a treasure in spite of his problem.
 

Pidgeon

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What signs exactly is she showing?
My boy has stringhalt so if he's been stood a while he lifts his off hind wobbles and then puts it down. I struggled tremendously to lift his hind leg to pick his hoof out so taught him to just tilt and rest the toe on the floor and that works very well when he's suffering more. I also have had him on NAF D-Tox for years now and this means I can pick his foot up first time round whereas pre NAF D-Tox I would pick it up, he'd snatch it away, wobble and then second time round I'd be able to pick it out. Farrier is sympathetic though we got to the stage of thinking no shoes on the back and even had some sedative from the vet for shoeing until I forgot to give it him and he was fine after a gentle :rolleyes: slap from the farrier as he was obviously playing on us treating him with kid gloves on that leg. Since then fine to shoe.
Shows no sign of any problems in his ridden work other than being stiffer on the right rein in canter.
May well be worth trying the NAF D-Tox as I wouldn't have him off it. I increase the dose when the grass is coming through in the Spring and Autumn as he appears worse during that time.
 

Matafleur

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She is very difficult to shoe behind - particularly on the near side. It is nearly impossible to get her foot off of the floor and then she is just desperate to get it back on the floor again. She does not have a nasty bone in her and has never ever even attempted to kick out at farrier, just wants to get the foot down.

She can also look a bit stilted when you first lead her out of the stable if she has been in for a while. There is no actual "shivering" of the limb though at any time - just a huge reluctance to pick the foot up and then to keep it up. She does not draw the limb up excessively high or higher than the offside limb during exercise although she will draw it up to try and escape someone holding onto it.

She shows excellent articulation of the hock joint during her work - not sure if she would show this if there was an issue with the hock joint rather than Shivers?

Will have a look at the NAF D-Tox - is it comp legal?
 

VRIN

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I did have a 'shiverer', spotted instantly by the farrier but missed by the vet!!

I think it fair to say that a farrier may have more experience with shiverers than a vet which is certainly why our farrier picked it up rather than the vet!

Mine also developed a stringhalt type action which may have been stringhalt or may have been related to the shivers.

The farrier was excellent and though inititally we thought we would have to sedate, careful management and a VERY patient and experienced farrier meant we didn't!

If it was me and my farrier was telling me it wasn't a typical 'shiverer' I would be asking more questions.

A shiverer does do exactly that - shivers - and there is no mistaking it!

I did a lot of reading and research when mine was diagnosed and there is a mine field of information out there! Mine was a dutch wam blood and at the time there was a study being carried out in America to see if it was hereditary in the DWB, interestingly the results were never made publish and it became quite hard to even find details of the research..

In terms of performance ... in my research i discovered there are many top sjers, eventers, dressage horses that are shiverers.. so in terms of performance and shivers there is no reason why they cannot perform to a high level.
 

Pidgeon

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Sounds similar to my boy. I assume so I've used it for years :eek: Just had a mooch on their website and there is a full list of ingredients available. Pidge is 666kg so I feed him a heaped small scoop per day, I think its double that for loading dose or when suffering.
It may be worth a go as you can buy it in sizes from 500ml to 2.5kg. Seriously it has made a world of difference as I really struggled to pick his feet up when I first had him and regularly ended up with mud down my jods from where he'd snatch his leg away from me :( I'm sorry I can't remember how long it was before I noticed a difference as he's been on it for about 7 years now.
ETS: We always try to get him shod straight from the field as the less time he spends standing still the better he is.
 
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