Shivers - shod or barefoot behind? Opinions please!

FabioandFreddy

FabioandFreddy

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I seem to be writing an abbundance of shivers related threads at the moment!! I have been doing some research online and there seem to be mixed views on whether a horse with shivers is better to be shod behind or left barefoot. Fabio's always been shod all round. He's always been ok to put hind shoes on, farrier just needs to wait a minute or 2 for him to relax his leg for him. Doesn't need sedating or anything like that. His shivers are always a bit worse in the winter due to him not moving around as much and we're at that point at the moment. I had to take one of his back shoes off last night as it was really loose and had no nails own one side. The views for keeping shod all round seem to be that they need this for balance. The views for barefoot behind being that less concussion.

So, my concerns are:

XC - will we be ok with just fronts on? We only do low level training and he's not studded up for it anyway.

Hacking - i use the verges most of the time anyway but how long will it take him to adapt for roadwork?

The pro's are that he's got good feet and if i go down that route i'm hoping he'd adapt well. He's never footy if he pulls a shoe even if its a few days for the farrier coming to put back on.

I'm also guessing that as he's on low starch/sugar diet that this will also be good if i do decide to go barefoot behind.

Any thoughts much appreciated. Particularly anyone who has a shiverer and has gone down this route!

Put in hoofcare section also
 
I have no experience with shiverers but do have 2 horses currently bare behind, 1 had to be shod in front having been bare fully for over a year he will soon be going without fronts again but has had no problem being worked with just the fronts on on any surface, inc plenty of roadwork.
The other is new to me and I took his hinds off as not doing that much work and wanting to try without shoes, I prefer to do this in two stages to see how they adjust, he is doing well hacking twice a week on roads with the bonus of extra grip.

If he has good feet and the farrier is supportive take them off and see how he goes, just make sure they are not trimmed when they come off, my farrier will let them self trim initially he just pulls them off and leaves them the first time.
 
How are shoes supposed to help balance? I know nothing about shivers, other than that by the sounds of the name it's presumably neurological?
 
Not sure how it would affect balance, just one thing i read online. Although he's never had an issue with balance when he's got 3 shoes after losing one!
 
Have you gone down the route of checking for mineral inbalances? I read a fascinating book by Pat Coleby who states with some authority that shivering and stringhalt are due to a mineral/vitamin inbalance. Just a thought.
 
He's on a very high amount of vitamin E, low starch/low sugar diet which is recommended for shiverers. I'm not really sure if its helping or not tbh. But looking into every avenue to minimise symptoms. Although he is always worse at this time of the year as even though he's out 24/7 - he doesn't really move about, just lingers where the hay is! Hence me walking him in hand on a morning as well as him being ridden/lunged at night just to get him moving more as it does help.
 
One of my mares has a fairly pronounced shiver. She is kept barefoot and I do find she is better this way. Initially we tried it because she was finding it too hard to hold her feet up long enough to be shod. Now I feel she moves better and is more comfortable without shoes. She is a flat-footed TBX and we keep a pair of hoof boots around for very stony hacks but she rarely needs them. Hope this helps.
 
Geoff shivers, apparently it's associated with his EPSM (they don't always go together but a reasonable % have both).

He's shod all round, no sedation. Some months are better than others - as you say winter is worse due to cold muscles.

Our farrier found him 90% better to shoe standing on rubber than concrete. I myself have noticed if he's left standing on concrete he'll wave his leg about more than if on rubber, and farrier notices a big difference. So I bought rubber matts, and he stands on them to be shod.

I also exercise him right before shoeing. If he has a proper warm up and good schooling session before shoeing, he is much better then to shoe as muscles aren't cold. He now also lives out 24/7, as that way he keeps moving - otherwise he gets morning shakes.

He gets a vitamin e and selenium supp (both are required in higher amounts in shiverers/EPSM horses and our ground is Se deficient anyway), and a low starch/sugar diet (which my vet said may not help with shivers if it is pure shivers and not EPSM related shivers). He does very well on ERS pellets. I also add oil to his feed - EPSM horses need as much of their energy from oil rather than sugar/starch as possible, so high oil feeds and additional oil are recommended (hence the higher vit e requirement due to oil processing). So he gets that too.

I tried barefoot first, but whilst my lad has very good feet for a TB, he doesn't grow horn quickly enough for the amount of roadwork we do - he goes lame very quickly just from wear. I can't avoid the roadwork unfortunately so shoes it is. However, before we started with all our 'things we do' to help the farrier, he was literally falling over when being shod, and farrier was going to insist on not shoeing him behind if we couldn't improve it. Now he barely has to drop him. So a huge improvement from the rubber and exercise and turnout.

Next step discussed with vet and farrier (once/if he eventually worsens) is to sedate to shoe. This apparently helps the muscles relax so the feedback reaction isn't so extreme. However means being very organised with farrier regarding shoes for competing etc, so we'll see how that goes.

Other than shoeing, it doesn't affect him at all - he can back up, turn on the haunches, engage behind, jump in a proper bascule... but my farrier and I have done our research to make him as easy to shoe as possible!!!
 
spookypony said:
How are shoes supposed to help balance? I know nothing about shivers, other than that by the sounds of the name it's presumably neurological?
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Not a lot is really known for sure, SP. It is a neurological feedback loop where when the leg (generally hind but can be front) is lifted and joints bent past a certain degree, muscle tremors are triggered. Some times it's just a wobble, other horses fall over. (Not related to Wobbler's in case you're wondering, although often mistaken for). Most horses only show signs when being shod.

It can be associated with EPSM, and starch/sugar levels, but also can be completely separate and non-reactive to feed changes. Some cases seem hereditary, others not. In some cases it is progressive, in others not. Some horses eventually struggle to back up or turn on the haunches or in bad cases it affects the power of the jump, others never have a problem at all with any work. So it's still a bit mysterious.

The biggest problem is that shivers, EPSM, tying up and wobbler's all used to get mixed up, and many symptoms overlap. So separating which is which and what causes each has proven tricky.

Oh and OP - apparently chromium can be beneficial in non-EPSM-related shivers, however if dietary-linked then insulin levels mean it's not advised.
 
hmm, our field shelter is concrete based and due to the boggy paddock he is spending a LOT of time in there. I wonder if that is also exacerbating the shivers?

I haven't had him tested for EPSM but will perhaps do that to know for sure, but feed him the low starch/sugar diet with added oil anyway and have just started giving him 6000iu vitamin E a day to see if the higher dose helps. He doesn't present any other EPSM symptoms other than shivers though so i'm doubtful it is that.

Ridden wise he's fine, we're doing Novice level dressage and working on moving up to Elementary. He's got bags of energy and is actually feeling better than ever! He's also fine with his jumping.

I wonder if maybe i'm overthinking it as i know he's generally worse this time of year anyway and as soon as springs here and he can move paddock and actually be moving about properly then the symptoms subside a lot. But then the other side of me is just wondering whether trying no shoes behind will be worth a go as although he isn't that bad to shoe (in fact, he's probably less hassle than a ot of horses with no issues!) it must be uncomfortable for him to be unblanced to have his backs done.

A lot of other people's experiences of not shoeing behind with shiverers though is because they can't get back shoes on, not through choice. My farriers giving me pro's and cons for both too so not helping me in my decision!

My thought process is really landing me with these 2 options:

1 - get them to take the other shoe off tomorrow and see how he does without hinds

2 - get them to put the shoe back on and carry on through the summer as normal then look to try backs off from November - Feb/March when i'm restricted to weekend hacking and the XC courses have shut.
 
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FabioandFreddy said:
hmm, our field shelter is concrete based and due to the boggy paddock he is spending a LOT of time in there. I wonder if that is also exacerbating the shivers?

I haven't had him tested for EPSM but will perhaps do that to know for sure, but feed him the low starch/sugar diet with added oil anyway and have just started giving him 6000iu vitamin E a day to see if the higher dose helps. He doesn't present any other EPSM symptoms other than shivers though so i'm doubtful it is that.

Ridden wise he's fine, we're doing Novice level dressage and working on moving up to Elementary. He's got bags of energy and is actually feeling better than ever! He's also fine with his jumping.

I wonder if maybe i'm overthinking it as i know he's generally worse this time of year anyway and as soon as springs here and he can move paddock and actually be moving about properly then the symptoms subside a lot. But then the other side of me is just wondering whether trying no shoes behind will be worth a go as although he isn't that bad to shoe (in fact, he's probably less hassle than a ot of horses with no issues!) it must be uncomfortable for him to be unblanced to have his backs done.

A lot of other people's experiences of not shoeing behind with shiverers though is because they can't get back shoes on, not through choice. My farriers giving me pro's and cons for both too so not helping me in my decision!

My thought process is really landing me with these 2 options:

1 - get them to take the other shoe off tomorrow and see how he does without hinds

2 - get them to put the shoe back on and carry on through the summer as normal then look to try backs off from November - Feb/March when i'm restricted to weekend hacking and the XC courses have shut.
Click to expand...

You'll get more hoof growth during the summer period, so maybe best to take shoes off in spring to get maximum hoof growth?
 
Have experience of 2 with shivers, one of them also responds to EPSM management. The older lad was shod a couple of times behind, but it was so stressful for him we gave up on it. (We lost him due to a non shiver related problem when he was 15) The other is 19hh's and has never been shod behind, both have run to 100 level without a problem. Two of the others are TB's and are only shod in front, as the other 2 managed so well we have never considered hinds on them. The 15hh Irish bog pony has never been shod, he will have fronts if he needs them, but so far is quite happy as he is
 
spookypony said:
Is shivers the same thing as string-halt then? That's something I've encountered before...sorry for the numpty questions!
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No. Stringhalt you see when they move, shivers you don't. Also string halt isn't related to feed etc at all...

Really good definition of both and the difference:

http://www.ker.com/library/EquineReview/2003/HealthLine/HL18.pdf

Also, not numpty at all. Until I was suddenly told by my farrier that my new horse had a neurological problem, I couldn't have told you what shivers was, and didn't know about the difference between shivers, EPSM, wobblers and string halt until I started researching... so this is painfully gained knowledge, that started with some links by lovely people on this very forum ;)
 
I resisted taking my old boy's shoes off for as long as possible, he was ID and had very poor feet. It progressed quite rapidly one winter and I couldn't have put him through the farrier just because he was previously always shod. He did actually cope quite well barefoot behind, I stuck to the softer ground and he did hunt barefoot behind with no problems.

I hope you manage to find something that works for you both, it is a really rubbish disease to try and manage.
 
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