Shoeing/Feet advice please - also in Veterinary

[Shiraz]

Not sure where to post this so also posted in Veterinay. It's a long one so apologies in advance. If you don't care about her history then the actual shoeing dilema is at the bottom where the stars are

My mum bought a QH mare in March 07, unvetted against my advice. When we went to view her (5hrs away!) although she was crabbit and bad mannered she moved straight and true, tracked up, turned on a tight circle, backed up, was fine under saddle and showed no reaction/sore bits over her back when palpated.

It was another 3wks before she arrived on our yard as we needed to hire a transport company and due to mum's house move she was given 2wks off to settle in. I noticed her action looked a bit "pottery" and then she was having trouble backing up, turning on a tight circle and she was having big reactions/spasms over her back when palpated.

I know the saddle she came with didn't fit her (and previous owner rode with a cut-away-wither saddle pad on back to front ).

Anyway I got the vet out and he suspected navicular, x-rayed an found a pea sized cyst on the navicular bone of her off fore but didn't think it would affect her and not to the extent that she was lame. Second opinion said navic and arthritis (and to breed from her - she's had 2 foals already that I know of). The vets suspected cause of arthritis ties in with the history that we know of her - used fairly hard when young and used incorrectly when older and unfit. She is 15 now.

She is on 1/3 a sachet of danolin a day, cortaflex and get McTimoney -Corely and does stretches daily as advised. She is on field rest just now. She has had periods of being sound but in the 18mths we've had her she's only been ridden in walk a handful of times (also had major trouble finding a western saddle to fit her. Got one now but got a lame horse!)

We've been through loads of supplements and since the company in USA stopped making the one that worked we've that Cortaflex is doing the trick for now. It just seems to be one thing after another with everything. She not at deaths door and not unduely uncomfortable. She is happy in herself and estastic if there is food on the go! She careers around the field like a right one and can buck and fart like a right one!

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Ok, to my point...

She has incredibly small feet, everyone comments on them. I know it is/was common practise to trim QH feet small for halter classes as it makes their forearms and thighs look more muscular. She was a (successful) Halter horse but I've no idea how she was trimmed/shod just that her feet are tiny now.

I had a brilliant farrier, D, but he stopped covering my area. We then swapped to another farrier and sacked him straight off, tried another, M, he was fine for the first 3 sessions then I started to get concerns. With the QH he was leaving the toe long and heel short and thus changing the angle of her feet and putting strain on her tendons and ligaments. I spoke to the farrier about this and each time he explained things but when I had the vet out anyway I got him to check all my horses feet and he agreed with me that they weren't the best but to tell the farrier X, Y & Z and give him another shot.

This I duely done but the farrier still done, imo, a very bad job. Less than a week later and my QH was lame. She was only shod in front when we got her but he insisted on shoeing her behind as her heels were contracting?! We got the vet out and he said it was ligament damage due to the poor shoeing. This is some photos of her feet after she was lame with his shoeing. I pulled the hinds off after taking the pics

This is how she was standing (mid fart )

fronts

hinds

So I got a new farrier, O, and he shod her Natural Balance and confirmed that she didn't need shoes on her hinds. He made a really good job of her feet but she was lame still. I think this was because of previous ligament damage and then putting her feet back to the correct shape was too much in one go. We moved yards and this good farrier doesn't cover my current area.

The new farrier we are using is good but shock horror is always early. Not just 10 mins but over an hour and when I'm at work I don't know he's there (doesn't text to say). She was shod 1wk ago and he'd done her before I got there, she was cold shod (I want her hot shod) and her feet look to have been taken really short, her off fore looks almost club. I'm not dissing this farrier, I like him a lot and he does a good job the previous 2x I've had him. He was going on hols the next day and I was last job so not sure if that was a contributing factor. Now QH is lame/stepping short again. She's running out of foot and I'm running out of farriers (seriously there are NO others I can use at all).

So basically what would you do for a lame, poss navic, small footed horse? I've emailed someone from here http://www.epauk.org/ basically all the same blurb i've put here to find out if barefoot would be an option? I really don't know what to do for the best which is why I am posting here.

What would you do? I really would like her to be a happy hacker as she is bored senseless. Any help or info much appreciated. I'll try to get a photo of her feet tonight.

Here are some proving she's got "go" left in her and that she wants to hack out not be stuck in a field!

 

[Foxfolly]

Front feet definitely look a bit long in the toes to me. My new farrier has seriously cut back my horses toe and the condition of his feet are so much better as they are not cracking so much.

The hinds actually look a good angle but has been shod way too wide! I know if you shoe wider it spreads the distribution of weight better and also can encourage a small or mishapen foot to spread... but that I would say is way too wide and just asking to be pulled off!

My horse suffers from bad horn quality and slow horn growth so in the past when they have got bad and farrier has nothing to nail to I have used Marquis suregrip hoof boots and they are really good. But trouble is with my chap is if you turn him out barefoot he has such thin soles he gets really foot sore so I really have to keep the shoes on him!! I daren't turn out in hoof boots or they'd make his heels sore and he'd lose them!!
But it looks like yours has a good quality hoof there so might be worth trying the hoof boots with a good farrier trimming regularly and getting the toe back and heel longer on the fronts!

 

[Benjamin]

After seeing those first pics, I am glad to read that you have now got rid of that farrier!!!
All I can say is that Benj, the coloured in my sig was diagnosed with Nav and Arthritis. I changed my farrier to a NB farrier, not a normal farrier that buys the shoes! Benj was going to be a field ornament before I found this chap.

I would recommend speaking to the people at Total Foot Protection, they may be able to help you find a NB farrier in your area.

Good Luck, and your horse is a very pretty girl!!

P x

 

[nuffield]

looks VERY long toe to me. if you draw a vertical line half way point fetlock front to back to the ground, that is where the back if the shoe should be. the back of the shoe looks more than 1 inch infront of this. put another way, if you look at the photos of your horses feet and draw a vertical line upwards from the end of the shoe it goes through the front of the front leg. it shouldnt, it should pass up thru the middle of the fetlaock and cannon bone. if that horse was mine i'd get those shoes off ASAP and sack the farrier. the horse has terrible underrun heels and they are totally unsupported.
is your farrier qualified and registered? if he isnt hes shoeing illegally and if he is i'd report him to the RCF thats appauling shoeing.

 

[Shiraz]

That farrier is WELL sacked!! With hindsight I think he was following the template by my previous good farrier but when the feet started "growing out" (for want of a better phrase) he struggled and they ended up like that. I was there for every shoeing and explained before how I wanted her feet managed etc I spoke to him about all my concerns and he nodded in the right places then just done what he wanted regardless.

He is registered through a loop hole, he's been practising for years but only registered last year as he said he does the Scottish Isles. Does that make sense? Don't want to give too much away incase I bump into him and he thumps me!

Yes, I know about the angles that they should be and that is why I was VERY concerned before they got to that stage. I tried speaking to farrier previous 2 shoeings, then vet and vet said to ask him to do them again and do X,Y & Z and that's what he done instead...

The hind shoes aren't meant to be wide like that, he shod them so badly that it moved and the toe clip on the other sider when up her hoof wall!! I don't know what he done because it was a nightmare to try and pull it off. Thankfully she was ok after that.

I feel very guilty that it happened, I honestly try my best by all my horses and that is why I am posting here as I don't know what else to try.

The NB farrier in our area (he shod her after I sacked the farrier that done that) doesn't come to my new yard - I begged and pleaded, offered to pay him silly money but he's just too busy to travel that far out.

My new farrier doesn't do NB as such but have their own version of "rolled toes/wide web" shoes similar BUT my mare's feet are too small for the shoes they have. So far she's had the same NB shoes put on 3x as there is no where due to her only going from field to stable.

I was just wondering if barefoot (considering she's in soft field etc) might be an option and help with the "navicular" so that she can go out hacking. Her horn quality is good and her heels weren't like that previously.

Thank you for taking the time to read my essay and reply!

 

[Foxfolly]

If she is better barefoot then go for it but the concussion would be my concern! I would definitely consider hoof boots as they will offer a good protection against concussion which I am sure would not help with the navicular.

Or if she doesn't cope barefoot and if NB shoes were good can your new farrier do double toe clipped fronts?

My horses current farrier does that and TBH gets the same breakover as if he had NB on, which he has had on and been good in before. I asked for NB but he doesn't do them but first time out to us, commented on horses long toe and suggested the double toe clips!

 

[Shiraz]

thanks FF, he shod my TB mare with double toe clips as previous NB farrier put her in NB too (but that's a whole other essay for some other day!)

It's just Dinah's feet are so small he didn't have their version of NB in her size, hence reusing her current NB shoes.

I'm hoping the podiatrist gets back to me and perhaps I can discuss hoof boots etc with her.

Took a year and 5 saddles to find one that fitted perfectly and made a loss of 1k on one we imported so would be nice to be able to walk out on her after all that! Her being comfortable and pain free is more important though, not just out to ride her!!!

 

[scotsmare]

How much work is she going to be doing over the next few months, bearing in mind winter is virtually upon us?? If you can stand it, I'd take her shoes off and leave her feet over the winter so that they take on their 'natural' shape again.

Please don't think I'm a barefoot nutjob - we had a similar problem with a mare last year and left her shoeless all winter, her feet began to sort themselves out a bit and are now much better.

Where in scotland are you and who is your farrier? PM me if you prefer - I might be able to recommend someone to you.

 

[JaneSteventon]

Hello I would definetly give barefoot a go. I have one horse who is fine and just uses boots occiasionaly (sp) and one who has not so good feet who does ok. One with not so good feet does not hold shoes on so was forced into barefoot really. He was not a good candidate for barefoot as he has very thin soles on his back feet, but with the use of hoof boots in the early stages and still pretty regularly now he is doing better than i ever imagined, even coping with stones. He had tiny little feet for a strapping dutch warmblood, and odd front feet but they have expanded to a reasonable size and his fronts do not look odd at all now. This time of year would be a good time to take of the shoes, especially if you are doing reduced work. Also barefoot might help with other problems. Easycare have brill website on best hoofboots for you - I like boas and easyboots - fiddly at first but you soon get used to them. Loads of good websites on giong barefoot as well. Good luck

 

[Marchtime]

I can understand your problems with farriers. My horse has ligament damage within his foot and a previous farrier made him lame for three months. I'm lucky I have a very good farrier now.
Bare foot can be very helpful in the treatment of navicular but some horses simply can't cope. There is no way I could put my horse bare foot as his hoof quality is simply so poor it would crumble and his soles collapse. I think you need to talk to people in the know before you take action. Also I thought the whole theory behind leaving a horse bare foot was too allow the foot balance to 'come right' and surely therefore you would still face the same problems with farriers as you would need to get her regularly trimmed.
Is there no way you could travel to your old farrier?