shoeing horses is cruel?!

[feisty_filly]

hi all, im not wanting to start an argument or anything its just whenever some one on this forum asks about barefoot / shoeing horses some one enevitably pops up and says shoeing horses is cruel / detrimental to the hoof / horse, but never expands on that!.
my hubbies a farrier and i was brought up in the racing industry so i have always just conciderd shoeing an essential part of SOME horses lifes (however i also understand that many horses are more than comfortable barefoot) so all this shoeing horses is wrong is new to me.
please could some one explain? and also maby inform me on what a barefoot trimmer offers that a farrier wont?.
im not saying i will agree but id just like to understand some peoples way of thinking.

appoligies for the awfull spelling and grammer!!

 

[unicornleather]

You're brave putting that up here, well done as I would like to know the answer too so I will share the flak coming with you!
Oz

 

[YasandCrystal]

My husband is a farrier, but he has a lot of barefoot clients. We own 4 horses, 3 of which are totally barefoot and the fourth has just fronts on. He always recommends that owners try to go barefoot behind at least particularly if their workload warrants it.

Barefoot is no easy option to the owner as horses feet need to be conditioned so the horse doesn't go footsore. The horse also needs to have a very correct diet to ensure healthy hoof growth and condition. It suits some owners and some horses, but not necessarily all.

I don't wish to get into the whole trimmer v farrier argument, I have done that before. I think 4 years farriery training v short course speaks for itself and the farrier is legally allowed to put shoes on the horse if then required at any time. My husband certainly understands the requirements of a barefoot trim and does them for a fraction of the price a trimmer charges.

 

[feisty_filly]

thank you! must admit iv been dwelling over it for a few days and got my courage up today lol

 

[feisty_filly]

My husband is a farrier, but he has a lot of barefoot clients. We own 4 horses, 3 of which are totally barefoot and the fourth has just fronts on. He always recommends that owners try to go barefoot behind at least particularly if their workload warrants it.

Barefoot is no easy option to the owner as horses feet need to be conditioned so the horse doesn't go footsore. The horse also needs to have a very correct diet to ensure healthy hoof growth and condition. It suits some owners and some horses, but not necessarily all.

I don't wish to get into the whole trimmer v farrier argument, I have done that before. I think 4 years farriery training v short course speaks for itself and the farrier is legally allowed to put shoes on the horse if then required at any time. My husband certainly understands the requirements of a barefoot trim and does them for a fraction of the price a trimmer charges.

this is my point, my husband too has an awfull lot of barefoot clients, i keep my own horses barefoot, but im not against shoeing if the horses need it.
i realy just want to know what barefoot trimmers think they can offer over a farrier?
its all very new to me so i dont understand there point of view is all.

 

[YasandCrystal]

My opinion is that you can only label shoeing as actually cruel if it is badly done or for something barbaric like the American 'rocker shoe' for the Tennessee Walking horses - now that IS downright cruel!

If you have a horse which does alot of roadwork and subsequently it's hooves are wearing to the sensitive or that has very thin soles then shoeing is a way to keep it sound, comfortable and in work.

Many horses today have incorrect confirmation and to an extent this can be helped from a young age via corrective shoeing before the bones and joints are fully set in a certain way. On the other hand poor shoeing can be the cause of all sorts of problems, such as splints, navicular etc. and to balance the argument the 'Strasser barefoot' trimming method has crippled many equines and is an extreme and contentious trimming method. Anything done badly is dangerous.

 

[You Wont Forget Me]

I think it genuinly is just an opinion some people have It all depens what your horse does for example a horse in hard work competing doing dressage, jumping or eventing will need shoes otherwise their feet will wear down far to quickly and they will hurt for the horse however if you have a horse in light work not doing to much then they could go barefoot without a question, i would say its cruel as such to shoe them tho, just prevents theyre hoof wearing down so quickly

 

[tallyho!]

I can't remember anyone saying shoeing is cruel! You've made that one up!

I've seen people on here say shoeing has done thier horses feet damage, caused lots of problems.

But now you've made me think of it, some shoeing IS cruel - that of tenessee walkers for example. Shoeing an already 'broken' hoof without further investigation is in my eyes neglectful.

A farrier at my yard shoes a 24yr old with horribly contracted feet, it can't walk properly and no one says anything because "oh you don't cross Dave!". The reason they say he walks funny is because he has arthritis.

Anyway, barefoot is a way of life, not a way of trimming and any good practitioner will tell you if a horse needs to have shoes. It could be because if they have been shod since a yearling, there is proof to show P3 doesn't develop as well as a 'wild' horses would. It's too brittle so that horse may have to be shod. It would be cruel not to. In that scenario, was it cruel to shoe it so young in the first place?

 

[VoR]

Cruelty

1. deliberate infliction of pain or suffering
2. the quality or characteristic of being cruel
3. a cruel action
4. law conduct that causes danger to life or limb or a threat to bodily or mental health, on proof of which a decree of divorce may be granted

Have stood and watched my horse being shod many times, he's quite happily stood there showing no signs of pain or suffering, in fact often chomping away at a hay net. After shoeing he shows no signs of pain or suffering, so under the above definition no it's not cruel. IF the question was 'is it natural' then clearly the answer would be no, but then again 'in the wild' some horses wouldn't live due to their feet not taking the battering, same can surely be said now they are 'domesticated', so in affect for these horses it is actually MORE cruel NOT to shoe. Excuse the pun but it's horse for courses.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

The barefoot people imo exploit a weakness in the Farriers Registration Act which only prevents non farriers from trimming feet in preparation for shoeing.

The length and depth of the training of farriers speaks for itself as already said.

Farriers are trained to trim appropriately whether for shoeing or barefoot. My hubby is also a farrier and like others our horse and ponies are shod or trimmed according to their individual needs and workload. He will recommend barefoot and boots where appropriate.

I don't have a problem with barefoot trimmers (its a free country) but I do wonder why they feel the need to criticise shoeing and farriers as sometimes happens on this forum. If they are right then their work should speak for itself. To imply that shoeing is cruel is merely their personal opinion.

I believe that barefoot trimmers are more likely to provide nutritional advice.

I have always wondered what they do when faced with an abcess. I am not sure what the legal position is regarding that.

 

[riding_high]

as a child half our horses were 'barefoot' and the other half were shod. none had any problems.
my ponies are barefoot, (one is 4yrs and other is 5yrs), i don't intend to put shoes on them unless they are needed. they cope absolutely fine without and i don't see the need to put shoes on.
my big lad had been shod all his life, i tried him barefoot and he was crippled, i gave in and put shoes back on him, he was happy. i then moved yards and had a different farrier, a year after his shoeing and my horse was crippled WITH shoes. i took them off and he's done really well, however he is footy over the stones and i've got boots for him. i'm not saying i will never go back to shoes for him again however i would rather not as i saw the way they affected him, and if i do put shoes back on him then i would use a different farrier.

 

[riding_high]

i also know a couple of people who trim their own horse/ponies feet themselves and won't accept that they are probably doing more harm than good. they also train others to rasp/trim the feet too.
that to me is unacceptable.

 

[dressagecrazy]

I dont think this subject will ever die will it.

As long as people stay closed minded there will always be a thing between BFT & Farriers.

Ive used both atm im very happy with the BFT, shoeing isnt cruel.

My last farrier made a complete mess of my horses barefoot hooves & made the horse incredibly lame. This is why i went with a BFT, the Farrier had no idea where the Impar ligament is in the hoof this is incredibly important for one of my horses as he's got a serious injury of that ligament, the BFT does know where is it & it's function.
I personally have to go with the option that has the better knowledge of the Foot & the BFT in this instance is that one im dissapointed with the Farrier.

There will be bad jobs done by Farriers & BFT's as well as brilliant work done by both. If both sides could get on it would benifit the horse a lot more imo.

If any of my horses needed shoes they would get them, i am not closed minded & have the horses best interests at heart.

 

[SavingGrace]

IMO shoeing is not cruel

 

[Katikins]

Something that really struck me this week when reading Roland's Nags and Nails on HHO, it is stated there that the trimming bit is THE most important bit of learning to be a farrier. So HOW you can be a barefoot trimmer with a short course is beyond me!!

Trimming is the most important aspect of shoeing and takes the longest to master. Kris has already started prepping me for this work by explaining the rationale of his trimming on each horse.

This part of the farrier's job is the most crucial. It doesn't matter how well all other aspects of the job go, if the trim is not right, then the whole job falls apart.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/306688.html

 

[YasandCrystal]

Something that really struck me this week when reading Roland's Nags and Nails on HHO, it is stated there that the trimming bit is THE most important bit of learning to be a farrier. So HOW you can be a barefoot trimmer with a short course is beyond me!!



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/306688.html

Which is why many barefoot trimmers need to resort to using grids and rules, because they do not have the experience and eye for good balance of the foot. Don't get me wrong there are good and bad in all trades, but with the number of trims that a farrier does during his 4 years training alone whether it be to take a shoe or not - it is all about balance and acquiring a good eye for it. It doesn't take a farrier long to learn to put a 'mustang' roll on and do a barefoot trim rather than grass trim.

 

[Tnavas]

the Farrier had no idea where the Impar ligament is in the hoof this is incredibly important for one of my horses as he's got a serious injury of that ligament, the BFT does know where is it & it's function.

Probebly because the term 'Impar Ligament' is an American term. If you had discussed with him - 'Inter Osseous Ligament' he would no doubt be well aware of what you were talking about.

 

[tallyho!]

Ah well, as long as the horse is sound, happy and healthy I couldn't care what/who anyone uses to trim a horses foot.

There's worse things out there to worry about.

 

[Tnavas]

Ah well, as long as the horse is sound, happy and healthy I couldn't care what/who anyone uses to trim a horses foot.

There's worse things out there to worry about.

Totally agree with you there - my UK qualified farrier barefoot trims all mine - they are all sound and have great feet especially the Clydesdale who's feet could easily become out of shape due to her size & weight.

 

[dressagecrazy]

Probebly because the term 'Impar Ligament' is an American term. If you had discussed with him - 'Inter Osseous Ligament' he would no doubt be well aware of what you were talking about.

PMSL, there is no chance he would of known. He reffered to my horses injury as a Tendon injury after he had lamed him!

So I'm sorry your wrong whatever name was given he wouldn't of known what or where it was.

BTW I'm in no way against Farriers I've used them for 20 years. I'm not bigging up BFT either I'm just stating that I went with the best person for my horses needs that's all be it farrier or BFT.

 

[ThePony]

Our farrier trims our two (same one that shod them), he does a perfectly good job, though is totally uninterested in the diet and management side. Fortunatly I am a nerd and enjoy researching that myself, but I think if our horses were more challening to take barefoot then I would be after a trimmer as I think the extra advice and support you might need for nutrition etc would be really useful.

I wouldn't get just any trimmer though as it is a term that can be used by anyone regardless of their level of training. I would want to look into the training they had done and make my decision based on that, and if possible personal recommendation from someone already using them.

I don't think shoeing is cruel, but I don't think it is good for horses either, hence why we have taken ours out of shoes. That said, shoeless doesn't suit every management style and can (depending on the horse) take alot of effort before getting just the right balance of things to allow the horse to confidently cover all surfaces. That isn't right for every owner, and particularly those on livery yards may well struggle to implement some of the changes needed. No prob in that, you can only do what you can do and different solutions suit different people! If our livery yard wasn't so accomadating then there would be no way we could have ours barefoot as strip grazing is essential to cut down the amount of spring grass they get to keep their waistband in check and their feet in good health. You just couldn't do that in a group turnout situaiton.

 

[criso]

Probebly because the term 'Impar Ligament' is an American term. If you had discussed with him - 'Inter Osseous Ligament' he would no doubt be well aware of what you were talking about.

Not sure about that - it was referred to in my horse's MRI too though abbreviated to DSIL so the english vets are using it even if the english farriers aren't.

I use a farrier to trim my barefoot horse but he was rehabbed barefoot elsewhere ( by a barefoot trimmer) and it's fair to say my farrier is actually learning from my horse. But he is consciencious and open minded.

What my farrier doesn't do is get into nutritional advice but I sort that out myself, however if I didn't it is unlikely my horse would cope barefoot.

I haven't really used barefoot trimmers (apart from the rehab) so can't comment but have had some appalling experiences with farriers so if mine wasn't available I would be open to either farrier or trimmer and talk to them and ask for client references etc.

 

[Chico Mio]

Ah well, as long as the horse is sound, happy and healthy I couldn't care what/who anyone uses to trim a horses foot.

There's worse things out there to worry about.

^^^

This. Personally I like the fact that my 'unqualified' OH can legally trim (AND shoe, if we wanted them shod) our own horses. Their feet are checked daily and rasped as necessary (usually a tidy up every ten days or so as we are on sand, grit, gravel and rocks) and cut if and when required. He also tidies up the barefooters that belong to the YO and saves her the 20€ a time the farrier would charge - if he ever turned up when he said!

There are much 'crueller' things than putting shoes on a horse IMO....over feeding and over rugging for starters.

 

[Wagtail]

hi all, im not wanting to start an argument or anything its just whenever some one on this forum asks about barefoot / shoeing horses some one enevitably pops up and says shoeing horses is cruel / detrimental to the hoof / horse, but never expands on that!.
my hubbies a farrier and i was brought up in the racing industry so i have always just conciderd shoeing an essential part of SOME horses lifes (however i also understand that many horses are more than comfortable barefoot) so all this shoeing horses is wrong is new to me.
please could some one explain? and also maby inform me on what a barefoot trimmer offers that a farrier wont?.
im not saying i will agree but id just like to understand some peoples way of thinking.

appoligies for the awfull spelling and grammer!!

This is a very graphic anti shoeing video. Make sure you are not eating when you watch it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I

I am not anti shoeing myself as I think we have bred horses (especially TBs) that have very poor feet and can't cope without shoes. My sister is a barefoot trimmer and most her horses do extremely well and their feet are fab, but her little thoroughbred has awful feet and suffers often with absesses and bad cracks. In his case, I think shoes would be better. My own horses are shod in front but not behind. They do very well that way and it is less dangerous if someone kicks!

 

[Oberon]

I think it genuinly is just an opinion some people have It all depens what your horse does for example a horse in hard work competing doing dressage, jumping or eventing will need shoes otherwise their feet will wear down far to quickly and they will hurt for the horse however if you have a horse in light work not doing to much then they could go barefoot without a question, i would say its cruel as such to shoe them tho, just prevents theyre hoof wearing down so quickly

Actually current findings among barefooters is that it is hard work that keeps them sound. My horses have been barefoot for 7 years now and in all the research I've done I have never found a horse who has worn their feet down to nubs with hard work.

If the diet is correct then the feet will always keep up with wear.

 

[ThePony]

Actually current findings among barefooters is that it is hard work that keeps them sound. My horses have been barefoot for 7 years now and in all the research I've done I have never found a horse who has worn their feet down to nubs with hard work.

If the diet is correct then the feet will always keep up with wear.

This ^^! More work is def better! My mare competes at dressage every fortnight, twice weekly lessons, a couple of 3hr fast hacks of a weekend, schooling on other days and a day off - no signs of her feet wearing away any time soon! OH mare does sj up to 1.10 with no shoes too and manages just great. Very simplisticly - more works helps stimulate them grow better quality horn which makes up better feet - all good!

 

[Chico Mio]

Agree with the more work thing too. One of mine schools/jumps in a sand arena at least four times a week, the other twice and they both hack out over some evil terrain about three times a week (minimum 10km a time). They dont eat grass.

When I first bought him, shod, my PRE X had the narrowest, most atrophied frog I have ever seen on a horse, he now has a lovely, wide shock absorbing cushion, concave sole and a wall like iron. I worried initially about my Anglo, who has very low heels and originally very flat soles and prominent bars, which would fold if not kept an eye on...now his soles are concave and again, like iron! Because OH trims we have been able to keep on top of the bars, but he is a perfectly happy barefoot horse.

 

[feisty_filly]

This is a very graphic anti shoeing video. Make sure you are not eating when you watch it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I

I am not anti shoeing myself as I think we have bred horses (especially TBs) that have very poor feet and can't cope without shoes. My sister is a barefoot trimmer and most her horses do extremely well and their feet are fab, but her little thoroughbred has awful feet and suffers often with absesses and bad cracks. In his case, I think shoes would be better. My own horses are shod in front but not behind. They do very well that way and it is less dangerous if someone kicks!

thank you, that was an intresting video, would be good to see it with a shoe on.

and thank you every one for your oppinions, its been realy intresting reading and i realy aprechiate it.

 

[paddy555]

OP,
all my horses are barefoot. I don't favour trimmers over farriers or vice versa. There are good and bad in each. There appear to be 3 groups of farriers. Firstly the ones like your partner who obviously know a good deal about barefoot, have barefoot clients (which means they know how to produce successful barefoot horses) and their clients are lucky and have no problem.
The next group of farriers is the real anti barefoot brigade which I am afraid do exist. The ones who remove the shoes, trim the horse, dissaprove totally and say "ring me if he goes sore in the next few days and I will come out and shoe him" It is a foregone conclusion the horse will be sore due to the trim and will end up either shod again or with an unhappy owner who will be determined enough to move onto a trimmer
The third group of farriers, and I know several of these, simply don't have many barefoot clients if any. They don't know if it will work or not. They are not obstructive but just don't have the experience of successful barefoot clients to be able to offer much help.
Possibly farriers who have wives with barefoot horses are the ones to choose

Obviously a farrier can trim a successful barefoot horse it would be ridiculous to think otherwise but a lot of barefoot success is not down to the trim but to lots of other things. Diet, exercise and lots of over little details. Some farriers see the whole picture and are great. Some simply think their role in life is to trim the feet (which it probably is) and if their clients don't realise they have to look elsewhere for info on diet etc etc then there can be problems.

 

[eva]

offtopic, but "anything done badly is dangerous" is just perfect, YasandCrystal! I hope you don't mind if I use it in my siggy?