Should I/can I report this?

EternalVetBills

EternalVetBills

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I have just been in touch with a potential employer whom has asked me to work a 5 day, 40 hours, fixed schedule week, as a freelancer.
I obviously politely explained why that would not be viable for me, nor would it be remotely legal. However I am slightly worried that someone younger or more gullible than I would accept this, and not realise that they are not protected by employment law, for sick pay, unfair dismissal ect.

So my question is, do people think I should report this? The employer is advertising it as a 'full-time' position. If I should report it, who to? I am a member of the BGA, do I contact them?
 
It's surprising how common it still appears to be in the industry, almost like they don't care about the IR35 rules. Somewhere local to me does it with all their staff, and I remember they got called out on a FB advert once - post soon got deleted 😂

I'm not sure who you would report it to, if it's on a recruitment/job site, you could contact them but not sure if they have any legal power to do anything.
 
teapot said:
It's surprising how common it still appears to be in the industry, almost like they don't care about the IR35 rules. Somewhere local to me does it with all their staff, and I remember they got called out on a FB advert once - post soon got deleted 😂

I'm not sure who you would report it to, if it's on a recruitment/job site, you could contact them but not sure if they have any legal power to do anything.
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I find it really quite sad that the equine industry is still so backwards. It's made me quite cross, not for myself, but because I know that she will find someone who just doesn't understand their rights and will inevitably get hurt/ill as most horse people do and have no protection for it.

Hmm, I know that where I hit a stumbling block, I don't think there's really anything I can do about it! I will email the site and just forward on our conversation to them, may at least get it taken down.
 
EternalVetBills said:
I find it really quite sad that the equine industry is still so backwards. It's made me quite cross, not for myself, but because I know that she will find someone who just doesn't understand their rights and will inevitably get hurt/ill as most horse people do and have no protection for it.

Hmm, I know that where I hit a stumbling block, I don't think there's really anything I can do about it! I will email the site and just forward on our conversation to them, may at least get it taken down.
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I would contact HMRC.
 
EternalVetBills said:
I have just been in touch with a potential employer whom has asked me to work a 5 day, 40 hours, fixed schedule week, as a freelancer.
I obviously politely explained why that would not be viable for me, nor would it be remotely legal. However I am slightly worried that someone younger or more gullible than I would accept this, and not realise that they are not protected by employment law, for sick pay, unfair dismissal ect.

So my question is, do people think I should report this? The employer is advertising it as a 'full-time' position. If I should report it, who to? I am a member of the BGA, do I contact them?
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Yes, I do - HMRC, also BGA since you are a member, and well done for outing it.
 
This is so common in the equine industry. People being asked to work fixed hours on a self employed basis. If more places were outed it may become less common and conditions improve.
A while ago I worked in the IT industry on a fixed hours contract without working paye and I had to set myself up as a limited company to do it.
 
I would say something but that’s me and my experience in the US where yard owners like to blur the lines of independent contractors to get out of paying workers compensation insurance, offering insurance, etc.

Shockingly some of the “employees” are okay with this because of WHO they work for and insist the average salary is close to six figures.

No harm in reporting the situation. Sadly the equine industry will be dragged kicking and screaming into the real world of business.

Never mind people in the US are so blinded by horses sometimes that Cesar Parra and his holding passports hostage is the line in the sand for people. Mean while it’s been known for at least 25 years he’s a scuzz ball. But ya know people are going see what they want to see.
 
Most definitely report to HMRC, they have teams which will go out and check the books. I did a similar job for the DWP many years ago, as National Insurance was under its umbrella then.
There can be 24 different questions to be answered to determine if somebody is genuinely self-employed including can they come and go as they wish? Do they have 24 hour access to the premises? If an accident occurs whose insurance company would be involved?
 
Thank you all much appreciated advice. I will contact HMRC and forward them our conversation, may at least give her enough of scare to pay a living wage to someone.

On the flip side, I have been to see a fantastic couple today who where so lovely and have offered me a wonderful package, which I am genuinely considering. Fantastic working conditions, so just to say not all equine employers are rubbish! Just sadly the bad seem to outnumber to good in our proffesion sometimes 😕
 
sunnyone said:
Most definitely report to HMRC, they have teams which will go out and check the books. I did a similar job for the DWP many years ago, as National Insurance was under its umbrella then.
There can be 24 different questions to be answered to determine if somebody is genuinely self-employed including can they come and go as they wish? Do they have 24 hour access to the premises? If an accident occurs whose insurance company would be involved?
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Just out of shear curiosity sunnyone, what releveance does having 24hr access to the premises to whether someone is self-employed? Not saying I'm questioning it, just genuinely curious!

Also is it a grey area of say a pet sitter, when the owner has asked for Mittens to be done by X time, how would that fall into that category? Because I definitely know I've done yards as freelancer and have been told to be there by X time, and always wondered where that stood legally, even though I've been happy to do it.

Sorry completely random questions that have to bearing on our conversation really, I just really enjoy learning about these things!
 
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IrishMilo said:
Can someone please explain to me why 40 hours a week isn't legal if freelancing? I'm not very hot on employment laws and would be interested to know.
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It's not the number of hours - you can of course freelance for 40hrs a week (your self employed builder manages, and wouldn't always be on one job), but it's the fixed schedule that sways it into the extremely murky IR35 rules, and whether you're truly freelance, a disguised employee, or an employee on PAYE. The short version is that to be a freelancer, you do not have fixed/set hours, you can say yes or no to work to suit you, not the employer, you don't have to book leave, you're under your own insurance. The moment hours, days, expectations are set it pushes you into employee territory.

So you can have coaches who are 'freelance' but work set days/hours each week, have horses, clients and arenas provided for them, and have to book their leave way in advance. That's not being freelance, that's being an employee, and it's a tax dodge.
 
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IrishMilo said:
Can someone please explain to me why 40 hours a week isn't legal if freelancing? I'm not very hot on employment laws and would be interested to know.
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I'm sure someone who can explain better will be along soon, but as I understood; 40hrs with one employer, and a fixed schedule, is not truly self-employment. 40hrs is pretty much a full week for most people, so you would not be able to work much elsewhere. Also if you are self-employed, you technically should be setting your own hours, not being dictated to as to when you can or cannot work.

Being 'freelance' also means that your employer is under no legal obligation to pay NI contributions, tax, sick pay, longterm sick, holiday, insurance, or pension contributions (there may also be more). They also are exempt from being done for unfair dismissal as you do not legally work full-time for them. A lot of the time people work for these employers as 'freelance' on minimum wage (or less), but once you factor in sorting all of the above your self, mainly putting aside your own sick pay, holiday, potentially severance pay, and your own insurance, you actually end up making far less than minimum wage, and are in a much more financially vulnerable position should your employer decide they no longer need you.
 
EternalVetBills said:
I'm sure someone who can explain better will be along soon, but as I understood; 40hrs with one employer, and a fixed schedule, is not truly self-employment. 40hrs is pretty much a full week for most people, so you would not be able to work much elsewhere. Also if you are self-employed, you technically should be setting your own hours, not being dictated to as to when you can or cannot work.

Being 'freelance' also means that your employer is under no legal obligation to pay NI contributions, tax, sick pay, longterm sick, holiday, insurance, or pension contributions (there may also be more). They also are exempt from being done for unfair dismissal as you do not legally work full-time for them. A lot of the time people work for these employers as 'freelance' on minimum wage (or less), but once you factor in sorting all of the above your self, mainly putting aside your own sick pay, holiday, potentially severance pay, and your own insurance, you actually end up making far less than minimum wage, and are in a much more financially vulnerable position should your employer decide they no longer need you.
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On unfair dismissal, you're not entitled to that cover as an employee until you've worked somewhere for two years either (currently - I know Govt are thinking of changing the rules).
 
IrishMilo said:
Can someone please explain to me why 40 hours a week isn't legal if freelancing? I'm not very hot on employment laws and would be interested to know.
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the point here is not whether a freelancer can work 40 hours in a week but the status of the "position" ie if the person taking the work will be employed or self employed (as a freelancer) there is insufficient info. here to make a decision.
 
Many years ago I worked at the BBC - at the time all ‘on air talent’ were freelancers until a major HMRC investigation. We all ended up having to be on staff apart from the very few who could prove they were genuinely freelance. One of the key criteria was if you were only working full time hours at the BBC then you couldn’t be classed as freelance (along with set hours/using provided equipment etc). So if you’re working 40 hours in one job it’s unlikely you’d have enough time to do meaningful work for another client.
 
There is a loophole for building contractors via the CIS scheme. It's a bit of a halfway house where self-employed tradesmen can work predominantly for one employer, who makes some tax deductions at source, which are then factored into account when the tradesman submits a tax return.
As far as I know this does not however exist in any other industry, and definitely not in equine industry!
 
McFluff said:
HMRC are the ones to report to.
They will take it seriously as they lose out by people doing this…

Editing to add a link. As they will probably be breaching min wage too…

www.gov.uk

National Minimum Wage enquiries and complaints

Contact HMRC with employer enquiries about the National Minimum Wage.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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I reported one place doing it and an immediate stop was put to it. HMRC are pretty hot on things like this.
 
www.gov.uk

Check employment status for tax

Use the Check Employment Status for Tax (CEST) tool to find out if you, or a worker on a specific engagement, should be classed as employed or self-employed for tax purposes.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

if anyone wants to play with it or to see different situations the above link has, at the bottom on the page a tool for determining employment status. Go to the bottom and press the START button.
 
Muddy unicorn said:
Many years ago I worked at the BBC - at the time all ‘on air talent’ were freelancers until a major HMRC investigation. We all ended up having to be on staff apart from the very few who could prove they were genuinely freelance. One of the key criteria was if you were only working full time hours at the BBC then you couldn’t be classed as freelance (along with set hours/using provided equipment etc). So if you’re working 40 hours in one job it’s unlikely you’d have enough time to do meaningful work for another client.
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Although in that scenario you could be working full time for the BBC on a programme then when it's finished move on to something else for a different company. I argued and won when it was called Schedule D and realistically although you might have some of your own small equipment, people in the technical areas are not going to own the kit needed to make a programme or film which runs into hundreds and thousands of pounds. In fact in the world of independent production companies it's either hired in each time so no one owns it or owned by the studio you are filming in.

The thing with being self employed is that there are benefits for the individual not just the employer and arguably easier to hide/not declare income so HMRC prefer to push people into PAYE if they can.

I'm self employed and there's a lot more I can set against tax as expenses than if I was employed.

Tax wise it would be a nightmare for all concerned if I wasn't. Multiple clients, projects running at the same time, different ways of invoicing (in advance, at the end, stage payments, for work that month) and in different countries including some that took withholding tax. So it's easier for everyone if I do my return and pay the tax each year.

BBC was OK, it was Sky that was difficult. They want you to go through an umbrella company which takes a sizeable chunk of you daily rate. Luckily I wasn't say a sound editor or camera operator where there are dozens. I was supporting a very niche piece of software and there weren't other people they could go to for the project so they made an exception and took me on outside IR35.

A groom could be self employed if they were providing services for many people but doesn't sound like this was the case for the O
 
EternalVetBills said:
Just out of shear curiosity sunnyone, what releveance does having 24hr access to the premises to whether someone is self-employed? Not saying I'm questioning it, just genuinely curious!

Also is it a grey area of say a pet sitter, when the owner has asked for Mittens to be done by X time, how would that fall into that category? Because I definitely know I've done yards as freelancer and have been told to be there by X time, and always wondered where that stood legally, even though I've been happy to do it.

Sorry completely random questions that have to bearing on our conversation really, I just really enjoy learning about these things!
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I think the later replies have probably answered the question, but having 24 hour access would mean that you probably have a set of keys and can choose when to work, also you are not dependent on somebody else who allows you to fulfil the contract. It may or may not be significant.
Being asked to feed an animal by X o'clock would be fine but a stipulation that they must be fed at Y o'clock would not as it suggests too much control.
 
everything depends on what the freelancer has contracted to do. Do they have to do it personally for example.
If the contract is to provide care which includes feeding and checking by 8am and an evening check and hay by 5pm (those timings are for welfare reasons) but you can substitute someone else to do it that would be very different. It may be that a freelancer has more than one 40 hour contract and fulfils them by having someone else "cover" for them.


there are a lot of factors and arguments to be taken into account and some employers don't give in easily.

Whilst per the opening post here it seems pretty obvious that is not necessarily the case.
 
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