Should I do join-up with my horse?

Freya28

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My loan horse (had her about 4 months) is seriously disrespectful. She refuses to he led from her field (easy to catch, but the moment you start walking she just plants her feet and refuses to move with you unless bribed with food, which stills takes ages), she throws (small) bucks about twice per ride if she's asked to do something, she barges through people on the ground, and she's started trying to bite me if I try to do work with her in-hand. She doesn't act this way as badly with her owner, so I feel like this is more of a respect thing (her owner is much bigger and more threatening than me!). I thought of trying a join-up to earn her respect and build up some more trust, however I've also seen that this isn't the way to go and there are other exercises I should do.
What's everyone else done with their moody disrespectful mares?
 

JFTDWS

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Short answer: no.

Long answer: get a decent groundwork trainer to come out and give you lessons on handling her, teaching her manners on the ground (without bribery, which will make the biting worse if not cause it entirely) and sort out your issues before worrying about what's going on under saddle.

I don't do anything like join up with my mare because she's not moody or disrespectful (and neither are my boys). I'm not sure the moody mare rhetoric helps anyone - she's a horse who needs better training and better manners.

Good luck.
 

EllenJay

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Short answer: no.

Long answer: get a decent groundwork trainer to come out and give you lessons on handling her, teaching her manners on the ground (without bribery, which will make the biting worse if not cause it entirely) and sort out your issues before worrying about what's going on under saddle.

I don't do anything like join up with my mare because she's not moody or disrespectful (and neither are my boys). I'm not sure the moody mare rhetoric helps anyone - she's a horse who needs better training and better manners.

Good luck.
Totally agree with this. Why are you bribing her with tidbits when you are bringing in? If she plants when you try to bring in, make it difficult for her, move her backwards, sidewards and circle. She will eventually be happy to move forward.
 

OrangeAndLemon

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Short answer: no.

Long answer: get a decent groundwork trainer to come out and give you lessons on handling her, teaching her manners on the ground (without bribery, which will make the biting worse if not cause it entirely) and sort out your issues before worrying about what's going on under saddle.

I don't do anything like join up with my mare because she's not moody or disrespectful (and neither are my boys). I'm not sure the moody mare rhetoric helps anyone - she's a horse who needs better training and better manners.

Good luck.
^^ exactly this. It's what I did and it was the best investment I made.
 

be positive

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I would also suggest asking the owner what they would want you to do, I think many would be extremely unhappy if a sharer starts trying to do join up or any other form of alternative training they are not experienced in, find a good instructor to give you some lessons and look at why she lacks respect for you, respect has to be earned and works both ways, calling her a moody mare will not help anyone, she may have reason to be moody or may just require some basic manners being insisted on in a way she understands.
 

ownedbyaconnie

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Best thing I found for planting when on the ground was to have a long whip (as long as she’s normally ok with them) then as soon as she stops stay standing at her head facing the direction you want but with one hand lightly tapping her bum with the whip. Not hard but almost bouncing it off her bum continuously so that eventually it’s so annoying for her that she moves forward to get away from it. As soon as she does step forward stop the tapping, praise (no treats) and walk with her. Soon as she stops start tapping again.

I did this with my mare who would plant as soon as I turned right (towards the school) instead of left (towards the mounting block which meant hacking). Spent 5 mins doing this and haven’t had a problem since.
 

Shay

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You need to check with the owner. Join up isn't an answer anyway IMO - but I would echo BP. I would have ended any share immediately if I had found one of my sharers doing something like that without asking me and without a qualifed instructor. Basic groundwork would probably be useful for both of you - but it needs the owner's knowledge and consent.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Talk to the owner, ask the owner to show you how to lead the horse properly and *only* use food as a reward not a bribe. Horses are great levellers and will soon suss out inexperience, it sounds as if that's what's going on here. If the horse behaves well for the owner, the owner is the best person to teach you how to handle the horse. Ifs/he can't help for some reason that ask the owner for recommendations for an instructor to help you. Join up would be of very little use to you in this situation, tbh.
 

Freya28

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Totally agree with this. Why are you bribing her with tidbits when you are bringing in? If she plants when you try to bring in, make it difficult for her, move her backwards, sidewards and circle. She will eventually be happy to move forward.

I would stand at the end of her lead rope, holding a treat in my palm, and wait for her to move. I was going off the idea that she's only rewarded when she moves forwards like I've asked her to
 

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I would stand at the end of her lead rope, holding a treat in my palm, and wait for her to move. I was going off the idea that she's only rewarded when she moves forwards like I've asked her to

But that is bribing her to move to the treat. For a reward for moving, she shouldn't know that there is the possibility of a treat before she has done what you have wanted.
 

MissP

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A good trainer to help you with groundwork will help. Someone who has knowledge of parelli or similar methods, but not join up as such.
 

Pearlsasinger

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But that is bribing her to move to the treat. For a reward for moving, she shouldn't know that there is the possibility of a treat before she has done what you have wanted.


As soon as she has had a treat once as a reward, she will know that there is the possibility of that happening again. Although I wouldn't reward in the way that OP has suggested.

If this was my loan horse, I would, in the first instance, ask the owner for help. If I were the owner, I would not be happy about the loaner getting in a trainer without consulting me, some of the methods used are very questionable.
 

Ambers Echo

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No! Not as a sharer but no anyway. The whole theory behind join-up is pretty much discredited. Manners are a human construct and horses do what they want unless taught otherwise. The horse needs education not gimmicks.

Echo the others - focus on basic groundwork. Horses need to be taught to lead on a loose lead rein going at your pace - slowing and speeding as needed - and quietly standing in their own space if you stop for a chat or whatever. They won't do this automatically. You need to work on it.
 

paddy555

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I would stand at the end of her lead rope, holding a treat in my palm, and wait for her to move. I was going off the idea that she's only rewarded when she moves forwards like I've asked her to

doing join up is about reading the horse totally accurately. I don't think from your post that you have the experience to do that. I am not advocating JU but if you do not read t he horse correctly in join up she will most likely assume what is her current position in your herd of 2 which is as the leader and come straight at you. You will be the one moving. :)

There are 2 of you in your herd. If you do not step up to be the leader the only choice for your mare is to become the leader. She won't move, she tries to bite you. What would happen if she did that to a "higher up" horse in the herd? she would get bitten back pretty quickly and taught her manners. You are not "biting back" you are accepting your position of being lower than she is and giving her a bribe in the hope she will understand.
She won't understand, she is a horse.

I think you need to change your viewpoint. You have to be her leader, "big" yourself up, don't accept her coming towards you and biting, not moving etc etc.
There are lots of ways of doing this but I really think that if you have a trainer or even an experienced owner give you some help you will soon recognise exactly what is happening and how to resolve it.
 

ycbm

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A good trainer to help you with groundwork will help. Someone who has knowledge of parelli or similar methods, but not join up as such.

Parelli as in chain the foreleg to the mouth to get a bridle on? Withdraw water as a form of domination? Smack a half blind horse under the chin repeatedly with the clip on a lead rope? Lead a calm, gentle horse behind you on a fifteen foot lead rope 'to be safe'.

It wouldn't be my choice of training method.
 

NLPM

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As everyone else, 'no' to join up.
The comments about bribery being related to the biting and keeping her moving when trying to lead - if not forward then another direction - are spot on.

She doesn't act this way as badly with her owner

This is the obvious person to help you, especially as they have a vested interest in making sure you aren't either hurt or instilling bad manners in their horse. The quicker they help, the quicker this gets resolved/the less there is to resolve. How have they helped you so far?


If they don't have time, ask which professionals they'd recommend to come and help you. Don't get someone in without checking with them first, as others have said. Also, given that the horse behaves for the owner I would be wary about using words like 'moody' during any discussions. Keep it factual.


As a 'PS', though, it sounds like you think they use force to get her to do what they want, given your comment that you believe the reason the horse behaves for them is because they are 'more threatening' than you - having not seen any of you I could be way off mark (and hope I am), but just wanted to comment that if they start to suggest methods you're unhappy with then don't feel pressured - ending the loan is always an option. If by 'threatening' you just mean 'confident' though, then watch how they position themselves around the horse/words and tone they use, etc..
 

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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As others have said, you really SHOULD ask the owner before you commence any new training regime.

I would not be best pleased if I put my horse on loan and someone started messing around with "natural horsemanship" - or anything else for that matter - without my knowing what is happening and agreeing with it.

Think you would be best to go back to the owner and explain what is happening, and ask her what she suggests in the first instance.

I've been both a loaner and a loanee; and the ONE word which is absolutely paramount above all others is this, it is C O M M U N I C A T I O N .

This is one instance where you and owner need to discuss the problem together and decide how best to tackle it. Please don't do anything like get a "trainer" in, without asking owner how she feels about it.
 
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