Should I have said no?

H

htobago

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 March 2007
Messages
2,937
Location
Oxford and London
Visit site
This is probably going to sound really silly.
blush.gif


I have just booked a super mare to my Arab stallion Tobago for this season. She is a 16hh, pure bred Arab, international champion endurance mare . I mean seriously top-class - on the GB team, etc. - as high as you can get in the endurance world.

Obviously, I am very, very chuffed. But part of me feels that this mare should be bred to a proven performance stallion, not an unbacked 3yo colt who has only proved himself in the in-hand showring.

OK, the mare's owner is explicitly looking for beauty and type as well as athletic conformation/ability. But still, I sort of feel that Tobago hasn't really yet earned the right to cover a performance mare of this calibre.

Last year, I actually turned down one or two breeders who were specifically breeding for endurance - I told them they should use a proven endurance sire.

But this time I just couldn't resist. The mare is very beautiful and very well bred, as well as an outstanding athlete, and the foal will have such a great home, where it will be shown in hand before starting a performance career... It was just too wonderful an opportunity for my boy!
blush.gif


I did point out to the mare-owner that Tobago was not even backed yet, and that she should perhaps consider using a proven performer or sire of performance horses. But I have to admit I didn't actually push her very hard in this direction!
blush.gif


What do you think? Am I a bad person?
 
No! Foals get their genes from both the sire & the dam, why limit your stallion's stock to ones with genes that you think 'aren't too good' for him? The mare owner has obviously chosen your stallion for a reason and who is to say that Tobago won't turn out to be a superstar in the future too?
 
No you are not a bad person!

Think of the situation the other way round if you were the mare owner. You would have spent considerable time picking what you feel is the right stallion for the mare you know and love. They obviously feel your boy ticks all the boxes that they require and compliments there mare.
If i was them and you turned me down, i think i would be quite upset that i wouldnt be getting the foal i had hoped to bred.

Hope you will let us know how the foaly turns out!
 
ABSOLUTELY NOT
mad.gif
!!! Why should you give up the chance of a good mare??? If the mare owner is at the top of his/her sport, then I am sure they are well versed with what endurance sires are on offer.....to turn them down to your own stallion would make no business sense at all IMHO.

If the mare does well and has a good foal then that boosts your stallion as a sire. You need to start thinking of yourself for a change, and that of your own stallions reputation as a future sire.

You worry just farrrrr toooooooo muchhhh........
grin.gif
tongue.gif
wink.gif
 
I should have explained that I didn't just say yes to this mare, I actually gave quite a generous concession on Tobago's stud fee as well.
blush.gif


But I think that is normal for a mare of this standard? I mean, most stallion owners would offer concessions for an international champion/GB Team member, etc., wouldn't they?

Here is the bit of my email to the mare-owner where I tried to be honest and unselfish:

"But of course Tobago is as yet unproven under saddle, which may be a drawback for you. All he has really proved so far is that he can prance about on the end of a string in the show ring, looking pretty! OK, he does this to international champion standards, but it's still just a beauty contest, really. And being scrupulously honest, I have to admit that although he has had a few good performance mares, and has more booked for 2008, most of the breeders using him are 'show' breeders, who are attracted mainly by his type, presence, pedigree and show-record. You may feel that he has not yet 'earned' the right to have a performance mare of this calibre - you might prefer to use a stallion with a good track-record under saddle, or an established sire of performance horses?"

And then at the end of the email I said:

"I will of course understand if you prefer to use a proven performance sire, and would be happy to recommend some - but for the moment I am rather hoping that you might choose my Tobago!"

So, from what you are saying, it sounds as though this was OK and I did the right thing? This is very reassuring - thank you! I know I tend to fret too much - I just sometimes get these little spasms of conscience over things like this. Not always enough to make me say no, though!

The breeders who specifically wanted to breed endurance horses were different - I really HAD to say no and re-direct them towards proper endurance sires, I think. It would have been irresponsible to accept their mares.

But I'm so glad you feel it was OK for me to accept/encourage this amazing mare! Now I can just feel chuffed and excited about her, unspoilt by those irritating pangs of conscience!
smile.gif
 
I think that you are so honest you're in danger of under-selling him. You have a stunning stallion who deserves to be able to prove himself with good quality mares and have, in my opinion, done exactly the right thing by offering a concession on his stud fee.

It sounds like a wonderful opportunity for him and perhaps the mare owner might not mind you mentioning to other prospective customers that he is getting mares of that calibre?
 
Yes was the correct answer. In the long term it is your your advantage for Tobago to be put to the best possible mares in whatever their type or breed might be, so that his offspring reach the best possible level.

As has been pointed out, mare owners will research carefully to find the best stallion they possibly can for their horse, so as long as they are well put together and likely to produce a foal that will amount to something, I would say that the ball is in the court of the mare owner
 
Give the mare's owner some credit! She obviously knows what she is looking at/for and thought your Stallion was best for her mare.
Just because the Stallion has a good competition record doesnt mean it is going to compliment the mare.
I wouldnt have turned it down, this is a good chance for your's to get some recognition!
 
I can honesty say with my hand on my heart that you have to be one of the most thoughtful stud owners one could ever meet.

However....you also have to remember that just because your stallion has not proven himself in endurance, this does not mean that his stock wont......
wink.gif


That is almost like saying that just because a stallion is known for dressage, he is not capable of producing a showjumper......
grin.gif


For instance the stallion we lost last year had jumping lines, but he competed in dressage. So just because he was not competing at showjumping did not mean that I turned away jumping mares.......
smile.gif
wink.gif


While I understand fully your reasons behind pushing mares away, in the long run if these are good quality mares and the owners know that your boy is the stallion of their choice, then surely where is the harm in selling the semen to them......
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I should have explained that I didn't just say yes to this mare, I actually gave quite a generous concession on Tobago's stud fee as well.
blush.gif


But I think that is normal for a mare of this standard? I mean, most stallion owners would offer concessions for an international champion/GB Team member, etc., wouldn't they?



[/ QUOTE ]

The mare owner likes your stallion (she'd be dim not to!) Yes, a concession would be normal for a mare with proven performance in her field - I give concessions to RID mares (because I WANT Raj to have pure-bred sons and daughters going for grading); I would give concessions to mares with proven performance in SJ, dressage or eventing - although he hasn't HAD any of THOSE!)

The only time I'd put a mare owner 'off' is if I think the mare is too small for him! When I had the two stallions, I sometimes encouraged owners to use one or the other because I thought that stallion complemented their mare better - but at the end of the day it's the mare owner's choice. I sure wouldn't discourage an owner from sending a very GOOD mare just because MAYBE they could find one more suitable - that's their business. MY business is getting the best mares to my stallion that I can encourage through the gate!
 
Thank you again! I really am feeling a lot better about this now.
smile.gif


I don't really think I'm in any danger of under-selling my boy - I do always say a LOT of nice things about his good qualities, as well as trying to be honest about any drawbacks.
wink.gif


And I have no qualms whatsoever about accepting/encouraging top-class show-champion mares - I just sometimes get these slight niggling doubts about mares with really outstanding performance/competition records. (This mare recently won a major International Championship in Holland with a forty-minute lead, was the British Team Flag-bearer at the European Championships in Portugal and has been personally invited to compete in the Abu Dhabi Presidents Cup!
ooo.gif
)

I can just imagine owners of proven endurance stallions saying (with a lot of resentment and some justification) 'WTF is she doing sending this fantastic world-class endurance mare to a bloody poncey in-hand show horse who is not even backed yet?!'
shocked.gif


But you are right - this breeder has done her research, she is breeding for beauty/type/presence as well as athletic ability, she loves Tobago's conformation/movement/pedigree/etc., she can see his athletic potential and she has chosen him. I should just be very pleased and proud, and not worry too much about whether he is 'worthy' of this mare!
smile.gif
 
...but just out of curiosity, do you think I was right, last year, to turn down those breeders who were specifically breeding for endurance, and tell them that they really should be using proven endurance/performance sires?

I did it extremely nicely and politely, of course! There is no way I could possibly have caused offence. I just pointed out that Tobago was only an unbacked 3yo with no performance record, and therefore would not be a suitable choice, when there are some excellent proven endurance sires available.

Was that the right thing to do? I have never questioned this - just assumed automatically that it would be morally wrong for me to accept these mares. But now I'm wondering a bit if perhaps I was being over-scrupulous?

confused.gif
confused.gif
confused.gif
confused.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
...but just out of curiosity, do you think I was right, last year, to turn down those breeders who were specifically breeding for endurance, and tell them that they really should be using proven endurance/performance sires?


[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely overly scrupulous!
grin.gif
Let's face it, MOST Arabians are pretty good on the endurance front - some just don't get a chance to prove it! But if an Arabian stallion has good conformation and exceptional movement, chances are he's going to produce horses that can do endurance very well indeed! And it's really the mare owner who should be thinking of these things - if they want to be blinded by a stallion's beauty, why not? And when his offspring turn out to be very good endurance horses - be it because of HIS genes or the dam's genes (or a mixture of both) he gets the credit!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I can just imagine owners of proven endurance stallions saying (with a lot of resentment and some justification) 'WTF is she doing sending this fantastic world-class endurance mare to a bloody poncey in-hand show horse who is not even backed yet?!'

[/ QUOTE ]

You worry too much about other people...........
tongue.gif
grin.gif
Just get on and do your own thing & worry about yourself. You have a fabulous stallion so why turn down the mares for him.... If endurance is the big puller then why not try that avenue as well if you are worried about the performance side....

And do I think you should have turned away mares last year.............NO.......I think you should just have accepted them as wanting to use a very nice young stallion. Lots of people try unproven competition sires..........why should yours be any different.....
wink.gif
 
Botheration!

I've got a feeling you may be right about this as well, blast you! Which means I am really not very smart, and I have deprived Tobago of a couple of jolly nice mares - not in the same league as this latest one, but in one case at least (if I'm remembering correctly) an advanced endurance mare with a good record and nice bloodlines.

Do others agree with JanetGeorge on this? Was I being over-scrupulous? I suspect that you will agree, and I will have to admit that I've been a bit dumb. Bugger.

I do see your point Janet - that any Arab with good conformation and movement is likely to be a good endurance sire. My slight concern was that Tobago's movement might be too flashy and elevated - fine for dressage/showing, but perhaps rather uneconomical for endurance. But then he probably makes up for that in phenomenal energy and stamina - the endless galloping he does when he's turned out, entirely of his own accord, always pushing himself to the limit of his strength, indicates great stamina, I think.

Anyway. I now feel that perhaps it was a bit silly of me to deny him these opportunities. I was so absolutely sure it was the right thing to do, but now I'm thinking maybe I was being a total numpty PRUNE!
crazy.gif
shocked.gif
crazy.gif


Still - I'm glad I asked these questions - I always learn something from you wise people!
smile.gif
wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
This mare must be Jade Rani then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eeek. No, it's not, but please don't make any more guesses - I have probably said too much, and the owner might not want her breeding plans broadcasted. Sorry - totally my fault - I shouldn't have given any details about the mare's achievements. There are usually no Arab/endurance people on here, so I thought it was safe! I will PM you with the correct name, but I must check with the owner before making anything public.
blush.gif
 
Or maybe Sharifah or Shimmering Blue Jasmine but im certain I was correct with my first guess as she is the only mare invited to Presidents Cup.
 
You are just a very cautious mum, who worries about her boy.....
smile.gif
Also remember that the mare contributes to the foalie a lot as well, so although you think you lad may be a bit too flashy.....who is to say the said foalie will not take their movement from the dam.....
wink.gif


LOL.......you are certainly not a prune.......and at the end of the day what you do is entirely up to yourself....

x
 
been thinking about this since reading earlier,
and i think you sound like a great stallion/breeder
ie;very responsible
BUT
i do think that to get good stock on the ground you have to encourage mare owners of top quality stock to use him.
i understand you have done this for showing stock but not yet with endurance.well how is anyone going to know if he does breed this type until someone tries.
i wish you all the luck in the world with your lovely boy just wish i had a mare to send his way you sound fab.
 
Of course it has a relevance. I follow endurance and have many friends who participate at a very high level. Im sorry but if someone comes on a public forum and quotes achievements it wont take long before someone guess`s who they are talking about.
And I am not pushing, just curious. And correct in my guess I think but wont know until later for definate.
This is a public forum and if individuals dont want others to know their breeding plans then they should not broadcast it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe Sharifah or Shimmering Blue Jasmine but im certain I was correct with my first guess as she is the only mare invited to Presidents Cup.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have PM'd you with the correct name (and yes, she has been invited to the Presidents Cup) but would really prefer not to broadcast it here. Entirely my fault - normally there are no Arab/endurance people on here so I thought it was safe to give a few details - didn't know we had an endurance expert here!
shocked.gif
 
Thanks for the PM Kate. Your information is safe. Did not mean to ruffle any feathers was just curious. As others have said a mare of this calibre can only help to promote your lad. I would love to meet him now he is a grown up.
 
But it was not broadcast
crazy.gif
........Htobago only spoke of a mare of a certain standard, not names of horses. If you were that keen to know you could have sent her a PM..........

However........Htobago being the nice person that she is has sent you a PM though.....

You know they said that curiosity...................killed the cat.............
grin.gif
wink.gif
 
I dont consider my reply pedantic in the least. As I said previously this is a public forum and I am naturally interested in arabian bloodlines/achievements etc etc.
Im sure Kate never meant to disclose information that should be kept secret, but nevertheless she did and I recognised who I thought she was talking about. What is pedantic about that?
As a breeder Kate is aware,FULLY by now, lets remember she has owned a stallion before, of what she is doing and saying. it would be naive to think she does not know. She is doing a very good job of promoting her stallion and why not?
I was simply interested in the mare she is breeding her lad to, you cannot shhot me for my knowledge as I would not condemn you for yours. Neither would I call you pedantic or a curious cat at risk of being killed for seeking further knowledge.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top