Should i pay the bill?

Veegeeay

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I have a horse on loan who has an injury that my vet has given a very poor prognosis for. I have taken vets advice at every stage and given all treatment necessary up to this point. The injury happened at my yard, though it is a field injury he was in my care. The horse is putting weight on his leg but is noticeably lame at walk and hopping in trot. He will rest that leg at every opportunity and struggles to get down to roll.

The vet doesn't think this horse will recover without surgery and the he is 20 years old and uninsured so this is not an option.

The only way to know whether field rest would resolve the issue is by having an x-ray done.

If this was my horse I would have decided pts. The owner initially agreed and the hunt was booked for today, she even paid the money into my account to cover the fee but at the last minute she was offered free livery for 6 months and has decided she now needs the x-ray to be sure that she is doing the right thing.

She wants me to cover the cost of the x-ray.

I understand her feelings and wanting to give her horse every chance and if the vet thought there was a possibility he would recover in the field then I would be offering to help, however that is not the case. Likelihood is he will be in pain (He is already on 2 Bute) until such time as someone makes the decision to put him to rest.

however I need to know if I am liable for paying the cost of the x-ray when if it were my horse I would have made the decision to pts.

I used the sample bhs loan contract as a template and did not change clause 5 or clause 2 (save for entering a period of 30 days). Legally I believe I am not liable, however I do not like bad feeling so want to be sure!! I have an appt this afternoon with legal advice but would like others' views.

2 TERMINATION
2.1 The loan will terminate in the following circumstances:
2.1.1 either party giving [insert number] days notice in writing to the other; or
2.1.2 if either party is in breach of any of the terms of this agreement, unless the breach is remedied within [30] days of it taking place; or
2.1.3 at the end of the Period without the need for any further notice
2.1.4 If the Horse does not fit the description given by the Owner or is not fit for the purpose required by the Borrower as set out in clause 3.3 overleaf
2.1.5 On the death of the Horse
2.2 On termination the Borrower shall be responsible for returning the Horse to the Owner.

5 INJURY/ILLNESS/DEATH OF HORSE
5.1 In the event that the Horse sustains an injury or develops an illness that will prevent it from fulfilling the purpose set out in clause 3.3 for a period exceeding 30 days the Borrower may terminate the agreement and return the horse.
5.2 In the event of the Horse’s death the Owner will be responsible for any euthanasia and disposal expenses.
 

Luci07

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Can you use the money from the hunt coming out to pay for the xray? or is there a: a big difference b: she expects you to refund this and pay for the xray?

I would not pay for this personally as I had taken vets advice and horse was deemed to be in pain.
 

Veegeeay

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There is an additional £80 to cover the x-ray which I would happily cover but then if he needs pts she would still need to pay that & she says she has no money at all.
 

kamili

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As Luci said, if the hunt fee is less or equal to the fee for the x-ray tell the owner you will be using that to pay for the x-rays, I'd suggest doing it in writing.

Go back to her and clarify, as it might just be crossed wires...
 

Luci07

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sorry . .. I am getting confused - I thought she had already paid this money (the PTS money) into your account?
 

Veegeeay

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She paid £200 into my account which is the cost of the hunt. The x-rays would cost £280 thereabouts. There are no crossed wires trust me!! I have had messages from her friends who believe I should pay. I'm very reluctant to use her money without her permission and even if I did she could then tell me I had to cover the cost of the pts.
 

little_critter

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Could you split it? Say she pays the x rays (as she wants them) and if the decision is made to PTS then you pay the hunt fee (as you initially wanted to PTS)?
That way you each pay for the outcome YOU wanted.
 

Red-1

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If the terms of the agreement state that the loaner (you) is responsible for vets bills relating to an accident then yes, I think you should pay. I think you can give to 30 day notice to return also, but for the next 30 days the responsibility is yours. The horse obviously can't be left in pain not knowing if rest will cure it for 30 days, hence needing X ray and probable box rest and pain relief, nursing etc.

The £200 was clearly to pay for the hunt, and IMO should not be used for anything else without her agreement.

I think that insurance is most important in this case, as if you agree to cover vets fees while the horse is in your care then you are agreeing to an unknown debt. So, I would give the 30 day notice, and give appropriate care until that time is up.
 

poiuytrewq

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If she can't afford an X-ray then can she really afford to have the horse back?
Free livery is great yes, but it's far from the only cost of horse ownership.
I think I'd refuse. The decision was made and agreed by both parties..... however you are liable for vet fees I guess.
£280 to X-ray a leg seems a lot?
 

Clodagh

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I would, in your case, expect to pay all bills relating to this accident. I have a horse out on loan who recently had to go to NEH for x rays, turns out the loaner also hadn't taken out any insurance and had no money. I now have to cover that bill and get the horse PTS and although this was not a field injury I am still pretty peeved.
 

Annagain

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I think it's possible to argue this both ways. Meanwhile the poor horse is suffering. Ultimately, £300 isn't a huge amount to pay to ensure an animal you must care about is either given a chance to recover (with owner) or PTS. I'd pay it and be happy that I'd put the horse's welfare over an argument over who pays.
 

honetpot

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Tough one.
I would pay for the X-ray, but also give her the 30 day notice, so then she has responsibility for any further treatment, and decisions.
I used to loan out my old ponies who were still worth money but not really insurable for vets fees. I just used to put a figure in, usually about £500 for injuries , at the time, that they had to pay that covered expenses and then they came home. Accidents happen but if you have not been negligent its seems hard be landed with a huge vets bill, for something who may end up having a poor quality of life.
 

Veegeeay

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If the terms of the agreement state that the loaner (you) is responsible for vets bills relating to an accident then yes, I think you should pay. I think you can give to 30 day notice to return also, but for the next 30 days the responsibility is yours. The horse obviously can't be left in pain not knowing if rest will cure it for 30 days, hence needing X ray and probable box rest and pain relief, nursing etc.

The £200 was clearly to pay for the hunt, and IMO should not be used for anything else without her agreement.

I think that insurance is most important in this case, as if you agree to cover vets fees while the horse is in your care then you are agreeing to an unknown debt. So, I would give the 30 day notice, and give appropriate care until that time is up.

He has already had 7 weeks field rest and the lameness is getting worse. This is not about money from my point of view, if my vet told me he wasn't sure or that there was a good chance field rest would help then I would cover the cost of the x-rays without question.
It's my vets opinion that rest will not cure the problem. I have covered the cost of the vets bills & treatment up to now with no problem, it is only because I want to take the advice of the vet and stop further treatment that it will be a problem.
 

TheHairyOne

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I am sorry, but I think you are very lucky the owner isn't insisting that you pay for the surgery to potentially fix it. If the horse was fit and healthy 10 year old I certainly would want to give the horse every chance and I am not sure the responses on this thread would be the same, and maybe the owner feels this way about her cherished 20 year old!

If you didn't amend the rest of the contract 4.1.8 reads:
The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower.

As you said this is a field injury and without having checked what's actually wrong you and the owner don't know if the horse will recover (though it is obviously unlikely to be within the 30 days), but as far as I can see you are 100% responsible for all diagnostics and treatment whilst he is in your care and in most cases with horses sooner rather than later is better.

Have the xrays done, pay the bill, if you get another loan horse get insurance. This is one of the places where I think loaning can go very wrong...
 

Veegeeay

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I am sorry, but I think you are very lucky the owner isn't insisting that you pay for the surgery to potentially fix it. If the horse was fit and healthy 10 year old I certainly would want to give the horse every chance and I am not sure the responses on this thread would be the same, and maybe the owner feels this way about her cherished 20 year old!

If you didn't amend the rest of the contract 4.1.8 reads:
The Borrower agrees to be responsible for ensuring prompt and required veterinary treatment by a registered and qualified veterinary surgeon at all times. The liability for payment of the aforesaid veterinary treatment lies solely with the Borrower.

As you said this is a field injury and without having checked what's actually wrong you and the owner don't know if the horse will recover (though it is obviously unlikely to be within the 30 days), but as far as I can see you are 100% responsible for all diagnostics and treatment whilst he is in your care and in most cases with horses sooner rather than later is better.

Have the xrays done, pay the bill, if you get another loan horse get insurance. This is one of the places where I think loaning can go very wrong...

She has categorically said that she doesn't want him to go through surgery so that's not the issue as originally stated. Money is not the problem from my side. If it was my own cherished horse I would (and have) made the same decision
 

ossy

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If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis. As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis. So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee. As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.
 

Veegeeay

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If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis. As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis. So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee. As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.

They are not really needed, more of an option. Based on the fact that he hasn't improved with 7 weeks rest (& in fact is getting worse) he is in my vets opinion unlikely to recover with simply more rest.
 

Alibear

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In a not too dissimilar situation I was given pressure by a third party to put my horse to sleep as their vet said so having examined my horse and my horse was getting worse.
I refused took horse for a referral and abscess was found and the horse was fine after treatment, original vet was very apologetic and we all still get along.
Whilst I understand the injury in this case if different, I can understand the owner wanting x-rays.
 

Veegeeay

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In a not too dissimilar situation I was given pressure by a third party to put my horse to sleep as their vet said so having examined my horse and my horse was getting worse.
I refused took horse for a referral and abscess was found and the horse was fine after treatment, original vet was very apologetic and we all still get along.
Whilst I understand the injury in this case if different, I can understand the owner wanting x-rays.

I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays? If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me
 

Sussexbythesea

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If the xrays are really needed to know what the extent of the injury is then how has the vet actually made his diagnosis and prognosis. As the owner i would expect the loanee to come back to me with some proper investigations and that gave an informed decision on the prognosis. So if i was the owner then yes I'd want the x-rays done and paid for by loanee. As loanee get the x-rays done give your 30 days notice and go from there.

Agree - It's difficult to say without knowing really what the injury is supposed to be. I would want to know why an x-ray wasn't done earlier to see the extent of the problem in the first place? I certainly would not want to put my 22yr old down just because he is old without knowing the full picture.
 

SpringArising

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I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays? If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me

This definitely.
 

Laika

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Agree - It's difficult to say without knowing really what the injury is supposed to be. I would want to know why an x-ray wasn't done earlier to see the extent of the problem in the first place? I certainly would not want to put my 22yr old down just because he is old without knowing the full picture.

Whole heartedly agree with this. In my opinion, I would get a second opinion from another vet to make sure this was being fully investigated. I'm quite surprised they haven't done an x-ray in the first place as this is a part of any thorough investigation with regards to limbs. I certainly wouldn't put my beloved animal to sleep without checking everything first.

I'm so sorry you've been put in a horrible situation here, as accidents frequently do happen in fields. However, I would go ahead and get this x-ray booked in as soon as possible so you and the owner can come to the correct conclusion.
 

ossy

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She has categorically said that she doesn't want him to go through surgery so that's not the issue as originally stated. Money is not the problem from my side. If it was my own cherished horse I would (and have) made the same decision

I do understand but would you expect the person advising pts to pay for the x-rays? If the boot were on the other foot then I would accept the loanee has done everything necessary & if I wanted further exploratory treatment (2nd opinion, x-rays, bone scans etc) it would be down to me

I don't consider x-rays as further treatment though they are so easy and routine these days, as someone else said i don't understand why they weren't part of the original investigation.
 

FfionWinnie

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If she has no money how will she provide free livery? Has she seen the horse recently? I think you need to phone her and explain you believe the horse to be getting worse and you are unable to watch it decline. Next time have insurance tho. I have two on loan. One insured one not. One is old (not insured) I know if he had a catastrophic injury he would be pts. The other is young and would be potentially worth operating on plus her owner will have her back. You really need to have that bit decided before something happens.
 

Veegeeay

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Thank you everyone, I have offered half the cost of the x-rays but on the provision that something happens the next day, whether that be pts peacefully or taken back to her care so I don't have to watch him suffer, I think that's fair.
 

paddy555

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personally i would have paid the full cost of the x rays 7 weeks ago. The incident happened whilst under your care.
I could not have stood back and watched it lame for 7 weeks and not got it x rayed and paid for them whilst I was responsible.
 

ihatework

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Not read replies but I don't care what contract says. Horse got injured in your care, morally for me the least you can do is pay for an X-ray.
 

Equi

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In my view you did what was required Of you and have the money agreed to get him pts. She's now changed her mind cause she has an offer of free livery so if I was you I'd be sending him back with the £200 and saying good luck old chap.

Alternatively if you care about what will happen to the horse, pay the £80 and then get him pts as that's most likely anyway.
 
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