Should my dog eat dog food? Article in Ecologist

[Taffyhorse]

Hi all,

This is preaching to the converted but its an interesting article and I hadn't heard of Joe Inglis's Campaign for Real Pet Food before (which I'm about to go and check out).

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/home/268818/should_my_dog_eat_dog_food.html

It does make for pretty horrific reading - I knew that most 'commercial' brands of dog food are pretty rubbish but even so...

 

[KarynK]

Yep sadly all too true and the more generations eat it the worse it will get!!!

In the USA a few years ago certainly and probably still so today there is nothing to stop euthanized animals entering the food chain, including small animal pets complete often with plastic bags, flea collars and the barbiturates that killed them, which do not break down with heat! There is a book by Ann Martin called Food your pets die for if you like real horror stories. Sadly for me Ann doesn't quite go on to raw but does list some home cooked recipes.

here's a link to an excerpt
http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html

There's your clue though "commercial" they are out to make money!

 

[KarynK]

Yep sadly all too true and the more generations eat it the worse it will get!!!

In the USA a few years ago certainly and probably still so today there is nothing to stop euthanized animals entering the food chain, including small animal pets complete often with plastic bags, flea collars and the barbiturates that killed them, which do not break down with heat! There is a book by Ann Martin called Food your pets die for if you like real horror stories. Sadly for me Ann doesn't quite go on to raw but does list some home cooked recipes.

here's a link to an excerpt
http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html

There's your clue though "commercial" they are out to make money!

 

[Taffyhorse]

Thanks KarynK - I'll check it out.

 

[kirstyl]

Horrific. I want to see the recipes for homemade dog food!

 

[arwenplusone]

Intresting article, but the author needs to be careful about her facts.

Yes, the pet food industry is an extension of the human food and agriculture industries, and many pet food companies are subsidiaries of gigantic multinational corporations. Agree.

However, I do work with one such large multinational and I can tell you for an absolute fact that the meat that is used is human grade & is not 4D sourced (so NOT from dead, diseased, dying or disabled animals)

In the UK the petfood industry is very much regulated, in fact almost as much as human food.

Don't get me wrong, personally, I think that Raw feeding is as good a way as any to feed, and granted some dogs do thrive on it, but a little bit of knowledge can sometimes be a dangerous thing & unless you know what you are doing (or you have help from someone who does) for the majority of owners, commercial petfoods (the reputable ones!) provide a safe way to ensure that pets get all the nutrients they need.

 

[pillion]

I feed my dogs RMB diet, am a complete convert will not touch made 'dog food' and will never again, and it costs me nothing.......

my dogs are healthy, well behaved, clean breath, teeth and fab coats, never over/under weight and my vet thinks they are in brill shape

 

[KarynK]

Ooh good someone from the feed industry the chance of some answers!

How come commercial feed does not comply with Trades Descriptions? For instance food described as Chicken and Maze when in fact on the label there is 70% odd Maize and only a 13% is undefined bits of chicken?

Exactly how much input does the pet food industry have into the training of veterinary surgeons and nutritionists in the UK?

When you say human grade meat, what meat exactly are we talking about, is it premium muscle meat or render?

Is it true that elements of a food supplied to the manufacturer by another party do not need to be declared as ingredients on the finished product?

Why do companies insist on adding huge amounts of grain or increasingly other vegetables to the diets of carnivores?

Why do feed companies not declare if the vitamins and minerals in their feed are natural or artificial?

Are feed companies required to test the digestibility/availability of their feed and its added nutrients to the dog?

Are the preservatives and emulsifiers added to the food natural or synthetic. Is there any control over what products are used to preserve feed and extend shelf life?

No 4D products may not be used in your particular product, but is it banned from use in the dog food industry in Europe or the UK?

What is the industry definition of a "Natrual" feed for dogs exactly? Some of the ingredients in the food are natural of course but what is not pointed out and so again is misleading is if they are actually Biologically Appropriate to a dog. Cats get a better deal here as they can't tolerate so much grain!!

I am not sure that I would stick my neck out and say that all high end commercial feeds are a safe way of providing all the nutrients, they may well tick elements on the ideal ingredients list, but if they are actually all of use is often very debatable.

One day when someone has enough money to fund the research there might well be proven to be a causal link between processed food and the increase instance of many problems on the increase in modern dogs.

If the standard food is so good why is there a range of specialist diets appearing to combat problems?

Like Human foods the labelling is very often misleading, I don't think this analysis would look out of place on a food label: Protein 32%, Fat 18%, Fiber 3%, probably a little higher on the protein than a lot of commercial feeds, but that might make people think that it is good for working dogs??? These figures are from an illustration from the Orijen white paper (a very good read for people wanting to know more about commercial nutrition) the ingredients of that analysis are shoe leather, used engine oil and sawdust!!


With the exception of the very high end feeds like Orijen none of these feeds fulfil my idea of biologically appropriate diet for dogs. Sadly I cannot afford to fund research into the benefits of raw feeding, I wish I could so that I could persuade more people to take much more notice of what is going into their dogs, but I can say from the benefit of nearly 15 years of feeding a raw diet and recommending it to anyone who will listen is that many animals with ailments especially those associated with digestive problems, allergies and blood sugar levels vastly improve on it, making me highly suspicious of some of the things currently fed to dogs.

 

[MollyMoomin]

We have started stocking (other stockists are available) a product called K9 Natural which to me sounds pretty much perfect in each and everyway but can we sell it? No. It's just too expensive.

 

[arwenplusone]

Wow - karynK I feel a bit under fire!

It isn't appropriate really for me to get into a debate about specifics, but, I will try and answer some of your questions as much as I can.

How come commercial feed does not comply with Trades Descriptions? For instance food described as Chicken and Maze when in fact on the label there is 70% odd Maize and only a 13% is undefined bits of chicken?

*Of course they must comply with trade descriptions & EU labelling legislation. If chicken and maize are in the product title then they MUST be the two main ingredients in the feed. It doesn't matter if one is 70% and one is 13% this is fine (legally). *

Exactly how much input does the pet food industry have into the training of veterinary surgeons and nutritionists in the UK?

*totally depends on the type and nature of the education and the Pet food business. Vets don't get much education about nutrition. Some of the larger companies provide vet diets & specific feeds/products for vets (Hills for example)- they might put money towards vets professional development & courses. Some companies invest a great deal into education in specific areas, such as Oral care (vets also get very little training in this, believe it or not). Most vets prefer to remain independent and objective towards feeds and feed companies. They are not generally 'bought' if this is your concern
Petcare companies should employ a nutritionist - many of these work as consultants who also tend to be very objective - (it is more than their career is worth not to be, to be honest)

When you say human grade meat, what meat exactly are we talking about, is it premium muscle meat or render?
*It is not 'premium' meat - i'd be lying if I said so! and it is from all parts of the animal, but it is fit for human consumption. (so does not contain any drugs, dog collars & other things you mentioned!)

Is it true that elements of a food supplied to the manufacturer by another party do not need to be declared as ingredients on the finished product?
*I think this used to be the case, but label regulations are a lot stricter now, pretty sure all ingredients need to be declared*

Why do companies insist on adding huge amounts of grain or increasingly other vegetables to the diets of carnivores?
*Part cost, of course, and to provide fibre in the diet. (though this does affect back end performance, lots of fibre = lots of poo. I'm sure you know that Dogs are omnivores - in the wild they would eat vegetables etc - they don't need carbohydrate in the diet but most (there are of course exceptions)can digest it just fine. It does also help with calorie density.

Why do feed companies not declare if the vitamins and minerals in their feed are natural or artificial?
* Not sure exactly what you mean here - whether they are from a natural source? (eg biotin) or whether they are added into the diet? Human food does not declare this?
It is a requirement to do analysis on feed as sometimes if a vitamin/mineral blend or Omega 3 is added, it can go over 'safe levels' due to the same vitamins being found in the meat/offal.

Are feed companies required to test the digestibility/availability of their feed and its added nutrients to the dog?
*Yes - I think most use a stomacher test for safety which mocks up digestion.

Are the preservatives and emulsifiers added to the food natural or synthetic. Is there any control over what products are used to preserve feed and extend shelf life?
*Varies totally from business to business. Most would now use naturals, but some synthetics are used where it is necessary to keep the food safe/stable & free from pathogens. There is a huge list of products that are not allowed in pet food. (pretty rigourous in control to be honest)

No 4D products may not be used in your particular product, but is it banned from use in the dog food industry in Europe or the UK?
*I genuinely don't know -will find out.

What is the industry definition of a "Natrual" feed for dogs exactly? Some of the ingredients in the food are natural of course but what is not pointed out and so again is misleading is if they are actually Biologically Appropriate to a dog. Cats get a better deal here as they can't tolerate so much grain!!
*very good question & one that there are probably a few answers to, plus lots of differing opinions, both with professionals and the feed industry. Biologically Appropriate foods such as the Orijen & Acana, Ziwipeak brands have a lovely philosophy & it would be wonderful to think that this is the main aim, same with raw.
It is worth noting though that there is no scientific evidence that shows artificial colours are bad for dogs. (don't jump on me here, I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence, but there are no peer reviewed scientific papers).

I am not sure that I would stick my neck out and say that all high end commercial feeds are a safe way of providing all the nutrients, they may well tick elements on the ideal ingredients list, but if they are actually all of use is often very debatable.

*I agree. And that is not what I said. But there is a danger that you might not feed an animal properly if you don't research raw ingredients. Foir example, cats NEED taurine in their diet - if you do not know which foodstuff contains this, you could do the animal damage feeding it a raw diet.

One day when someone has enough money to fund the research there might well be proven to be a causal link between processed food and the increase instance of many problems on the increase in modern dogs.

*Maybe, yes. But as I say, there is no compelling evidence as yet. And this is NOT hidden by the feed companies, there are plenty of people wanting to research & prove the industry wrong, I am pretty sure they would if they could!

If the standard food is so good why is there a range of specialist diets appearing to combat problems?

*All animals are individuals as I'm sure you know. Some of these special diets do cater very well for animals who have special needs. Some is just marketing hype.

Like Human foods the labelling is very often misleading, I don't think this analysis would look out of place on a food label: Protein 32%, Fat 18%, Fiber 3%, probably a little higher on the protein than a lot of commercial feeds, but that might make people think that it is good for working dogs??? These figures are from an illustration from the Orijen white paper (a very good read for people wanting to know more about commercial nutrition) the ingredients of that analysis are shoe leather, used engine oil and sawdust!!

*I have read the paper - it is on the whole a very good document (if a little misinformed in one or two places) not sure what your question is here?
In terms of clearer labeling, this is poor at the moment & is something the industry is working on (GDAs etc)


With the exception of the very high end feeds like Orijen none of these feeds fulfil my idea of biologically appropriate diet for dogs. Sadly I cannot afford to fund research into the benefits of raw feeding, I wish I could so that I could persuade more people to take much more notice of what is going into their dogs, but I can say from the benefit of nearly 15 years of feeding a raw diet and recommending it to anyone who will listen is that many animals with ailments especially those associated with digestive problems, allergies and blood sugar levels vastly improve on it, making me highly suspicious of some of the things currently fed to dogs.[/QUOTE]

I am not in a position to disagree with you on this last point. There are some things on the market I wouldn't feed my animals on in a million years. Rawhide as an example, and those awful hard nylon type bones. (though I do feed them on prepared commercial petfood)

Do what works for you - if it works for others too, then great. If you can prove it scientifically, even better. At the end of the day, it is the animals who matter.

Not sure if any of this helps answer your questions. Feel free to PM me if you wish
As I say, I won't get into debate, but I can try to give you the facts.

 

[reindeerlover]

KarynK- I can answer some of your questions. In the UK petfood industry, only animals certified as fit for human consumption are used, only animals generally eaten by people are used- beef, pork, lamb, poultry and game. The parts that are used are everything that humans don't eat- tripe, liver, lungs, heart, kidneys, heads etc (unpleasant to some people perhaps but the meat is still nutritious). The meat declaration of 4% means that the main meat in the product (ie-with chicken/beef etc) comes to a MINIMUM of 4%, it is often significantly higher that that and can be up to 96% in many canned foods.

Dogs have not evolved, they are man-made so the fact that wolves evolved to eat carcasses is very simplistic. Dogs are quite capable of digesting grains just as horses are- despite not having "evolved" to eat these. There have been extensive studies carried out on digestability of processed dog foods and there is scientific evidence (from unbiased sources) out there. Petfood companies do invest in veterinary training but they cannot make things up to teach vets! That is a ridiculous idea only perpetated by crazy people on the interweb. Likewise the tales of euthanised pets and flea collars in your dog food. It does not happen in the UK.

There are thousands of tests that petfood companies must perform on their finished products befoe it is safe to sell- this isn't some backstreet business, there are laws and rules. There is nothing "harmfull" in processed petfoods, it simply would not be allowed. If your opinion is that the food is not good for your dog, it is your choice not to use it but making up or spreading these rumours is dangerous and frankly, a bit mad.

The real reason for overweight pets? People overfeeding them. The real reason for an increase in ill pets? Longer living pets these days due to better care! That's like saying how much senility there is around these days- it's due to people living longer not due to the food they eat.

I may or may not keep looking at this page so if I don't reply it's not because anyone has frightened me off, I just don't have much more to say on the subject.

 

[brighteyes]

Santalover IMO a very balanced and sensible reply and the present day scenario which I am fairly certain makes the leading dry kibble producers a safe bet. Arwenplusone good post also


My dog eats carrots and grass by choice - so she is definitely not a carnivore.

 

[KarynK]

Wow - karynK I feel a bit under fire!

You are not under fire at all! and thank you for answering these questions so candidly I have not been able to get answers before to the questions it just gives people information from which to form their own opinions.

 

[pillion]

santalover - Dogs have not evolved to be able to cope with grains, they are carnivores, and thrive so much better on a meat only diet........... so why feed grains, its to bulk out the feed and provide companies with a higher profit margin

I know this because I have converted from kibble to a RMB diet, and the difference is amazing, I have two spaniels, who were very hyper and constantly have soft stools, they are so much calmer since the removal of any processed feed from their diets, teeth are spotless, coats shine and the are content.

I tend to give 80% bone to 20% meat and this is working so far, and one egg each a week.

Brighteyes - if you offered a carrot or a bone which one would your dog go for? dogs ARE carnivores, but are also scavengers and have limited taste buds, hence why they eat the odd pavement pizza, scavenging does not mean they are not carnivores, that is survival instinct

 

[KarynK]

Santalover - Paragraph 1 I know it is nutritious as those cast offssome of those ingredients are exactly what my dogs eat for next to nothing and they are in great shape, but the crying shame is that in a lot of dog foods that meat is cooked to death with nutrients having to be added back in.

Paragraph 2, I keep hearing this and to me it is so sad that it continues to be put forward as an argument. So if that's the case in just about 100 years of feeding convenience pet food our dogs have evolved? Because before that they lived on bones and scraps quite well.

I keep saying this but Dogs might be capable of digesting grain but ONLY with help, a dogs dentition is still that of a carnivore, it cannot grind plant cells, it cannot gain the benefit from plants without pre digestion, cooking or liquidising. The gut is short so is not designed for the prolonged digestion of plant matter, which is probably why like a rabbit, dogs on a high grain diet will sometimes eat their own excrement just to get enough out of it. They aree certainly not designed to eat more grain than a horse even that a racehorse in full training stomach ulcers and all. BTW the horse food industry is moving rapidly away for grains as a primary source of energy.

Take a long look at feral dogs and you will see that after only a few mixed generations they take on a familiar shape and the world over begin to look like a spitz!

A bear is an omnivore a dog is an opportunist.

EXCUSE ME if why am I labelled ridiculous for asking for the answers to these questions???
They are questions that need asking and you are attacking me for trying to find the truth. I am sorry but I am not one to take things on blind faith thank goodness!!!

I always wanted to know what goes down my dogs throat which is why I changed have seen the benefits and will never go back and the pet food industry does not have a very good reputation in the past for being honest! I also want to know why my vet, despite a lengthy course that I pay for is struggling with the concept of biologically appropriate food.

Did I actually say the pet food industry teaching vets made things up, where???????????????????? My concern is that they do not get a balanced view as very few commercial feeds look beyond their latest product, and so they should for they have shareholders!!!

I Never said euthanised pets got into the UK food I suggest you read it again!!!!!!!!!!!


Perhaps you would be good enough to post links to the unbiased sources research
??? Also if there is any comparisons between the digestibility of process foods directly compared to raw diet.

I don't doubt pet food is not a backstreet business but a business it certainly is. So what do you say about the dogs that died as a result of contaminated Chinese rice recently, was that harmless???? There was thought to be nothing harmful in cattle feed in the 1980's and there feeding an animal a biologically inappropriate diet proved a disaster. These things have a habit of taking a while to come to fruition.


I disagree and hopefully soon I will be proved right that there is a direct link between canine obesity and allergies with grain in their diet. Pets may live longer but they are getting problems earlier. Also perhaps you can tell me how can a carnivore suffer from diabetes?

Thankfully many influential people are now questioning what dogs should eat, there are now many vets and even some feed companies thinking carefully about appropriate diets and very soon I hope they will be in a position to fund some serious research, I know what that is going to find because I have seen it in my own dogs over the last decade or so and in the growing number of raw fed dogs and the feedback from those brave enough to research and take the plunge on this very forum.

" I just don't have much more to say on the subject." Forgive me but I do and will keep doing so until I see more dogs like mine and the ones on here.

I am happy to read up on dog food and have extensively from all camps, I have made a reasoned intelligent choice from years of research and observations, perhaps you could do the same by reading the likes of Billinghurst and Schultze and discuss exactly why you think they are crazy?

 

[pillion]

BTW the horse food industry is moving rapidly away for grains as a primary source of energy.

T I know what that is going to find because I have seen it in my own dogs over the last decade or so and in the growing number of raw fed dogs and the feedback from those brave enough to research and take the plunge on this very forum.

put a lot more eloquently than I did, but here here

plus my horses have been grain free for two years now and the difference there, its the same reason why I do not give my children redbull!

 

[arwenplusone]

santalover - Dogs have not evolved to be able to cope with grains, they are carnivores, and thrive so much better on a meat only diet........... so why feed grains, its to bulk out the feed and provide companies with a higher profit margin
QUOTE]

Pillion - I am sorry, I have to correct you here to get facts right. Dogs are absolutely NOT carnivores. They are Omnivores.
That is not ,to say that a raw or 95% meat diet isn't better for them, or that they do not prefer it, (I am not arguing this point) but biologically/scientifically/clinically/whatever they are OMNIVORES and *could* survive with little or no meat in their diet.

Cats, however ARE carnivores & would die without meat.

 

[arwenplusone]

KarynK - glad I could help you with some answers.

To try and help further with some of your next post

Unfortunately the demands of consumers & supermarkets do mean thata lot of products have to last a long time on shelf - hence why they are 'over cooked' - a lot of this is to ensure that they are safe for consumption. I would rather overcooked than pathogen laden.

Your description of a dog's digestive system is of course correct, they have a short intestinal tract, which is designed for a high protein, meat diet, but as I said to pillion, they ARE ominvores. Of course they are not designed to eat a large amount of grain and (like humans) some dogs will reject it altogether. I guess in a way it is a bit like humans & cow's milk. Probably we shouldn't have it but most can digest it with no problem at all.

Anyway, I digress (I don't know much about humans!)
I do disagree with santalover's point on dogs being man-made. Of course they have evolved from wild, we did not invent them! But domestication means that dogs travel less miles in a day, have totally different living environments and, more importantly, they live longer (I have a very interesting study on this if you'd like it). Basically a longer life means that they are more likely to get problems that they wouldn't have got in the wild. Gum disease for example - it is likely that wild dogs would have got this - but their life expectancy means that it would present as less prevalent (if you see what I mean).

Personally I think it is wonderful that you are asking these questions & encouraging others to do so. Unfortunately you will be a minority (again, i make comparisons to human food here - if you don't care what you put in your own mouth....)

With regard to obesity - we are doing extensive research on this & I have a couple of papers that show links to a few things. The main is lack of exercise (not surprisingly) and overfeeding - paticularly things like table scraps and human food (cheese) but also socio-demographic scale is a factor and there IS a possibility of a link between owner obesity & dog. (but I say this losely as no significant proof there yet).
The trouble is getting consumers to see this - so it boils down to education, which is a hard thing for manufacturers to approach. A bit 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' really.

Pet food companies absoluetely DO need to shape up and many are taking steps in the right direction. There is a huge amount of research going on in a lot of areas (including biological appropriate food) funded by Pet food manufacturers.

I am not saying what is right or wrong here, but it is about being informed & making choices. The responsible thing for petfood companies to do is to be as transparent as possible to dispel some of the myths, and to providethe facts so that owners can do what is right for their dog, whatever that may be.

 

[arwenplusone]

Oh I forgot to add ('and another thing!')

There is a LOT of misleading information in the regular press, on forums & even in some specialist magazines. It can be hard to look through hype & marketing & sensationalism.

If you are looking for answers I would encourage you to look for scientific, peer reviewed papers on subjects, that are written from an objective viewpoint.

Probably that sounds a bit patronising, (not meant to be) but if you want proof of something - is best to make sure it stacks up.

Wills top talking now. promise.

 

[soloabe]

Show me some real proof not sponsored by the huge pet food companies that dogs can digest grains?

In all the dogs i have owned and my parents have owned none have ever got gum disease except one who was fed kibble. There can be no denying that dog food is bad for the teeth and RMB are good.

 

[EAST KENT]

Why would I feed a dog which by choice is a carnivore on grain? Dogs are wonderful creatures who can survive well on almost anything,opportunists if you like,but that does not mean that is what is best for them.Mine get an entirely raw diet of meat and bones,it costs me peanuts in comparison to one of these "high grade" complete feeds,they look and are extremely fit and healthy.Why the Hell would I want to cause them gas (discomfort) loose droppings etc by feeding a material of unsuitable type,which they are NOT evolved to fully digest?

 

[prosefullstop]

One of my dogs is fed raw. Her vet commented the other day that she has perfect body composition, which isn't bad for an eight-year-old dog.

I would love to feed the pug raw. While he has an odd ability to digest raw tripe, any other kind of meat or bones brings him out in a scratching, oozing mess. As for grains, a total disaster. So I offer the next best thing: a grain-free salmon kibble, supplemented with sardines, dark green vegetables and tripe. Fed on a conventional dog-food diet--a "diet" brand, no less--he was an obese 32lbs. Since coming to me, he's lost 10lbs and is a new pug. Nothing will convince me I should feed my dogs one of the commercial feeds bulked out with fillers and grains.

 

[arwenplusone]

Why would I feed a dog which by choice is a carnivore on grain? Dogs are wonderful creatures who can survive well on almost anything,opportunists if you like,but that does not mean that is what is best for them.Mine get an entirely raw diet of meat and bones,it costs me peanuts in comparison to one of these "high grade" complete feeds,they look and are extremely fit and healthy.Why the Hell would I want to cause them gas (discomfort) loose droppings etc by feeding a material of unsuitable type,which they are NOT evolved to fully digest?

Hang on - if that is in response to me, please read my posts - I am not saying that you SHOULD feed dogs grain. Far from it, so no need to be defensive.
I am giving you the facts - one of which is that dogs are NOT carnivores! But I fully appreciate that dogs might choose to eat meat. As it happens I think raw diets have some great benefits.

In response to the gum disease KatieLou - not ALL dogs suffer from it, but they are succeptible to it at some level (in that plaque/calculus will build up in the mouth regardless of what you feed - to varying degrees.). It also goes undetected a lot.

You may have been lucky with your dog breed, type & genetics (we don't fully understand yet the role that these factors have to play) - you may also have encouraged chewing (bones/rawhide/whatever) which all helps & is great to do.
Diet can be a contributing factor, of course and can make the situation worse or better- but manufactured pet food does not in itself CAUSE gum disease. Dogs in the wild would have got gum disease - in fact wolves would/do and I bet they have never eaten any kibble.

 

[pillion]

okay I think dogs are carnivores, and thats my opinion, so to the comment on cats, if they are meat eaters and carnivores then why does cat food contain grains and vegetables, and not 100% meat content?

my cats are on RMB too!

and why do grains make my dogs hyperactive?

so why is that a good thing?

why are grains in the feed at all?

other than to bulk it out! as it is not a necessity why put it in there?

 

[Pix]

Arwenplusone, if you have time could you post/PM some references for the studies you've mentioned? I'd like to have a read Just a couple will do as a starting point if you get a minute. I'll follow the citations and references from there (I know I know, I'm being lazy, google scholar is one click away ) Thanks

 

[lizzie_liz]

Taken from the article

''Surveys show that overall pet health is declining almost as rapidly as human health. Cats and dogs are now developing a vast list of degenerative diseases, including autoimmune diseases, allergies, heart disease, diabetes, chronic digestive problems joint and arthritic problems and cancer.''

My opinion:

Pets are kept by humans and humans like to treat animals as if they are humans so it is no wonder that pet health is on the decline along with human health. If humans can't even look after themselves then how on earth can people look after their pets?

Diseases are appearing to become more common because of improved veterinary science which is making us able to diagnose what is wrong with the pet whereas previously pets would probably have just died without treatment.

Joint problems are also on the increase beacuse there are more dogs who are now obese as people insist on feeding them human food diets full of food that isn't appropriate to the dog and combined with a decline of exercise. Heart disease and diabetes as with humans are tied into obesity. It has nothing to do with pet food.

Due to improved veterinary care and the way things are today many dogs are probably living longer than they used to which as everyone should know, the longer you live the more likely you are to develop cancer, heart disease, autoimmune problems.

There is also the issue of breeding, breeding unsuitable dogs will increase the chance of diseases becoming prevelant. Some breeds have been breed to look a certain way which has increased their risk of disease. Previously I expect only the 'fitter' dogs in evolutionary terms would have bred, however now many are being bred irresponsibly and so passing on genetic weaknesses to its offspring.

The article makes very little reference to any scientific peer reviewed studies into the effects of pet food and should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. There are just so many environmental and genetic factors which determines a dogs health.

 

[EAST KENT]

Hang on - if that is in response to me, please read my posts - I am not saying that you SHOULD feed dogs grain. Far from it, so no need to be defensive.
I am giving you the facts - one of which is that dogs are NOT carnivores! But I fully appreciate that dogs might choose to eat meat. As it happens I think raw diets have some great benefits.

In response to the gum disease KatieLou - not ALL dogs suffer from it, but they are succeptible to it at some level (in that plaque/calculus will build up in the mouth regardless of what you feed - to varying degrees.). It also goes undetected a lot.

You may have been lucky with your dog breed, type & genetics (we don't fully understand yet the role that these factors have to play) - you may also have encouraged chewing (bones/rawhide/whatever) which all helps & is great to do.
Diet can be a contributing factor, of course and can make the situation worse or better- but manufactured pet food does not in itself CAUSE gum disease. Dogs in the wild would have got gum disease - in fact wolves would/do and I bet they have never eaten any kibble.

Fact of the matter is that tooth plaque/gum disease does`nt exist in any of the many dogs I own who are raw meaty bones fed.The ONLY dog I have that has ever needed a descale is my little rescue Lucy,who is fed on commercial wet food and ghastly Bakers(her choice!!) She had her Simon Cowell smile work up and now an exfoliating glove and smokers tooth powder maintain the pearly whites. Yes,we do get worn down teeth,and once a cracked molar that got an abcess above it,so an extraction was needed that time.Otherwise..no troubles whatsoever..PLUS of course empty anal glands all the time,so no toxic build up there either. As for breeds..well a variety ranging thru from a GSD,a Malinois..lots of bull terriers and mini bull terriers,border terriers and gun bred labradors. None of these get anything but chook carcases, ox head meat and tripe plus raw eggs; we have fed this way for thirty plus years,beginning by copying foxhound management.Amongst those breeds the bull terriers in particular will exhibit poor skin condition on anything that "heats" them up,like commercial food!! For our dogs skin issues are never a problem that so often occur in white smooth coated dogs of any breed.
The puppies go onto the head meat/tripe mix mince on weaning and absolutely thrive ,having that extra thick pelt that all puppies should have to grow into. I simply cannot imagine trying to rear good show/working dogs on anything else ,and even if it were free it would not tempt me to change.

 

[KarynK]

KarynK -

... I would rather overcooked than pathogen laden.

Ah but there we differ as dogs on a correct raw diet are able to cope with pathogens, their highly acidic fast working gut helps kill pathogens and expel any remaining before they have time to take up residence. So like their wild counterparts they can eat carrion and mine regularly eat stuff that heavily kicks in my human instinct to retch, in fact my two prefer gamey food. Some Malamutes I know will actually refuse fresh meat they like it positively crawling!!

The problem appears to come with dogs fed a lot of plant material the digestive process is slower, but the slowing and less acidic action allows the pathogens to stick their foot firmly in the door, I’ve seen some dogs quite ill after eating stuff my two love. This is also why we raw feeders are always saying never feed raw near commercial as you risk impaction because of the speeds.

I don’t actually agree that dogs are omnivores in so much as the evolutionary evidence of the dentition, the lack of sideways jaw movement, the digestive system and the need for veg to be broken down in some way to gain nutrients, so the reverse of what you are arguing really, i.e. that they do not need plants for any of their nutrients, they can get everything they need from meat, bones, offal and from manufacturing their own. BUT I will say that they are opportunists and therefore Omnivores by choice rather than evolutionary category, really just like humans drinking milk all their lives, a lifestyle choice or in their case a successful survival choice.

A better analogy is the Giant Panda, an omnivore changing to a herbaceous diet, though they can still eat meat if they can catch it and evolutionarily over a very long time period for them nothing much has changed apart from a bigger frame to carry all that heavy bulk around, moving at a slower pace, having to eat for 18hrs solid a day and probably a lot more wind! But their teeth and gut are still that of an omnivore.

My own dogs like veg in their diet and will eat herbivore excrement if I forget but they do need the veg liquidised to get anything much from it and probably have 3-4 Tbs a week. But equally many other raw feeders add no veg matter at all to the diet and the dogs don’t need it. But grain, especially so for modern high yield grains, I would say are very unnatural.

I’ve no doubt that wild dogs will eat small amounts of veg matter if there is not much else around or if they need it, it would be interesting to see some studies on African Wild dogs, Dingoes and Wolves to see both who in a pack eats what bits and the true ratio of meat/bone to any vegetable matter.

But domestication means that dogs travel less miles in a day, have totally different living environments and, more importantly, they live longer (I have a very interesting study on this if you'd like it).

Yes please I’m a sponge!

Gum disease for example - it is likely that wild dogs would have got this - but their life expectancy means that it would present as less prevalent (if you see what I mean).

From my experience and observations I don’t think wild dogs would live long enough for tartar to build up and give gum disease. Raw diet is an absolutely brilliant toothbrush, what I could see being a problem for the Omega’s of the pack is tooth breakage if they are forced to eat more heavy tough bones from a kill, which is why I would like to see some studies on pack diet. To be absolutely fair though In very old age small amounts of tartar do begin to build even on raw diets, they get to a stage where they no longer chew bones so well and a small amount of tartar can build, but then they are living way beyond their wild life expectancy, my sisters 17 yo was still enjoying heavily bashed chicken wings right to the end and her current “olds” at 14 and 15 are still knocking them back with the help of an axe and the odd tooth scrape, my mothers JRT at a similar age is always being knocked out to have her teeth cleaned or the odd one removed and she is on processed food.

I do have concerns that some diets are not sufficient in minerals for dogs and tooth wear can be a problem sometimes even in young dogs but the benefits outweigh this for me. However some of my sisters are 3rd generation raw fed and their teeth are very tough, so hence my suspicions on availability of some nutrients in some diets.

I quite agree that overfeeding is the major source of obesity and lazy owners overfeeding are a dog’s worse nightmare and it’s usually those owners that choose the lower end of the market for their own and their poor dogs feed!!!! But there are an increasing number of active dogs gaining weight as well and that concerns me along with the appearance of more aggressive allergies and diabetes, which we should not be seeing in a dog.

With raw diet it is easier to maintain weight without a ravenous dog. Upping bone content keeps them full whilst dieting and upping muscle meat puts weight on, and since feeding raw I have noticed that they are less inclined to pile on the pounds without the grain, with protein and fat as their only energy source and they also exercise whilst they eat; you see some of the major muscle groups flexing whilst they rip ad tear of chunks to swallow a bit like eating on a treadmill!!

I have always disagreed with some raw advocates over dairy, I think it is an unnatural food, most animals stop taking milk at a very young age but we humans revel in the stuff turning it into all sorts, but it can be bad for dogs, most of it is cured/ cooked in some way and a lot is very fattening and not for regular consumption!

I accept that raw feeding attracts more “thinkers” to it’s ranks, in that owners willing to try it are more open to closely monitoring their dogs needs, instead of religiously dishing out the approximate ration on the pack no matter what, and it’s that mentality that the re education will come up against!


[QUOTE ]Pet food companies absoluetely DO need to shape up and many are taking steps in the right direction. There is a huge amount of research going on in a lot of areas (including biological appropriate food) funded by Pet food manufacturers. [/QUOTE]


It’s really refreshing to hear that and I accept that raw is not for everyone but it would be really nice to see the market take a right turn in the appropriate food direction so maybe even some of the non thinker’s dogs can benefit. Though I doubt you will sway some die hard dog owners from the cheap and cheerful supermarket own brands and the McD on the way home from shopping!!!

The responsible thing for petfood companies to do is to be as transparent as possible to dispel some of the myths, and to providethe facts so that owners can do what is right for their dog, whatever that may be.

I totally agree they have some big bridges to mend and again it is nice to hear someone being refreshingly honest on an open forum, even if I don't subscribe fully, so thank you for taking some flack!!!


PS sorry if I am repeating some from other posts but only just had the opportunity to post this!!!

 

[EAST KENT]

Talking of carnivores short gut and it`s pathogen killing properties..did any of you watch the prog about the dead elephant and how in just six days various carnivores/birds/maggots had disposed of it? Wow,even a leopard munching on rotten meat, and whats the betting no animal even got a bit of gut gas!! My theory is that by feeding raw you build up the body`s ability to cope with any food ..fresh or otherwise,and that has to be a good thing.

 

[KarynK]

I'm sorry but there is no way that I can fit a dead elephant in the boy's freezer, shame though all that free food!!

Actually came across some interesting trivia the other day about starlings and some other birds, they can actually adjust the length of their gut seasonally as their diet changes from seeds and veg material to worms and grubs, clever little dinosaurs!!!