Should we give up on her?

[Cliqmo]

Further to this post from a few days ago
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/sh...&PHPSESSID=
we have had the introduction of a new problem- this morning OH went outside for a cigarette to find the two dogs locked into a particularly nasty scrap, with nothing obvious as the root cause (no food, toys or other possessive items they might be fighting over). With the help of a lot of water pressure from the hose pipe he managed to get them apart and was shocked to notice it was Nala (original pup and up until now the dominant one) backing off and Ruby (the supposedly timid and submissive one) coming back for the repeat attacks.

OH hasn't really witnessed dogs fighting before and is really shaken , both at the brutality of the fighting and, more significantly, that it was another episode of unprompted and uncharacteristic but vicious behaviour from Ruby, who we have owned for about 2mths now.

On the back of her unreliable snapping at people (see previous post) and now this fighting with Nala, we are seriously considering if she would be better off finding another home

I realise I will probably come under fire for considering 'passing on' a problem dog, but the breeder has advised that she will always be happy to take back any of her puppies (so we wouldn't be passing her on as such, just passing her back). I realise many people suggested getting a behaviourist in, but with such intermittent and inconsistent behaviour, would they actually be able to help?

Advice please

 

[Spudlet]

I would get a behaviourist in before making any hasty decisions.

Sorry - I forget, did she come from a rescue centre? If so, call them for advice. They may be able to recommend one.

 

[Cliqmo]

Great minds Hanandhen, I must have been editing my OP when you wrote that

Do you think a behaviourist could help when the naughty bits are so intermittent?

We got her from the breeder after she had been returned the previous week from the original purchasers. The breeder was given the impression she was just too boisterous for them to handle, although I am genuinely suspicious that she has bitten before, as developing a habit of biting adults at 22mths old just seems too unlikely

 

[WandaMare]

I think the advice in the previous post was good, to get the help of a professional animal behaviourist. i took on a dog from a rescue home not realising that he had a similar temperment to your 2nd dog. As he settled in, his nervous aggression became more of an issue. I called the rescue home who recommended an excellent dog expert who gave me loads of help.

I also took advice from my vet who has also specialised in dog behaviour.I was determined not to give up on my dog because he had already been in the rescue home for 6 months.

As the previous post said, its all to do with your dogs working out the pecking order with each other and with you and your OH. Different techniques will work with different dogs and an expert will need to spend quite abit of time with you and your dogs to work out the best course of action. Once they have worked out a plan, it should show results very quickly. Dogs need to understand their place in the pack.

Good luck hope it works out for you

 

[Cyrus]

Some of the comments on the previous post horrify me re - dominance rolling

This is a very interesting article about the above subject - http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology

Please find a ADTB member in your area to work with you, your OH and the dogs, they will only train with positive reinforcement http://www.dogtraining-online.co.uk/ whenever we have had problems with our pack structure we have worked with our trainer and have always thankfully had a possitive outcome, please do contact one and have the situation assessed before giving up

Good luck

E x

 

[CorvusCorax]

I am sorry this was such a shock to you, I think bitches fighting are ten times worse than dogs, must have been horrible to watch.

As before, I would definitely get a trainer/behaviourist in, and a good one at that, used to dealing with nervous/fearful/aggressive dogs, not one who can only do basic obedience and tricks.

From the sounds of it, she does seem very unsure of her role in your home. While I do not agree with dominance rolls for every dog (as mentioned) I think a trainer will say you will have to be firm in some fashion, whether through your voice, your actions and the rules you set, even if they seem very unfair, and you must be able to stick to them.

I would definitely not send her back before you see what you can do, you owe her that, being sent from pillar to post will make her even more insecure.
When my Mum had an overprotective dog, she chose to PTS rather than pass him to someone else and hear that he had really gone for someone and badly hurt them.

That is why I was so determined not to let B continue the way he was going.
It has been a long hard road, I have had to be incredibly firm with him and I have used methods that people might balk at.
However I now have a super dog and people comment on the progress he has made - a year ago this weekend, I took him home from training in tears because he tried to attack a baby puppy - last week he was rolling around on the ground with one.

If, after assessment and training, it proves she is unpredictable and untrustworthy around other dogs I would send her back (and I don't mean to give you false hope, but B has turned right around) but with people, including snapping or biting, then I would PTS before passing her on to an unknown future or one that could see her hurt a person or another dog.

That may sound harsh, but it is what I would do with mine.

Hope everything works out.

 

[Spudlet]

I have never had to use a behaviourist myself, but would have expected an appropriately qualified and experienced behaviourist to be able to assess your dog without seeing the big issue behaviour - ie tell whether she is nervous etc - at least to a degree.

When my friend used a behaviourist it was quite in-depth, and involved several pre-visit calls and emails as well as follow-up after the visit, so it wasn't just a snapshot.

I hope you can get it sorted hun.

 

[Cliqmo]

Thanks for the info Cyrus, I have emailed a local dog trainer/rehabilitation tutor asking for some help or advice.

 

[CAYLA]

The probem can be worked with and cured, you have to learn how to read body language and make yourself familiar with with what they react to, hence u then work around the problems and try and nip them in the bud before they even have chance to get going, but you do need to be very careful, hence the good advice re an experienced person helping and guiding you, it can be very daunting dealing with dog on dog aggression esp with larger breeds...............I must agree with the rolling

I deal with a great deal of unsocialised dogs and have the lovely job of socialising them, my latest a huge german shepherd brought to us to bed destroyed because of his aggression with dogs..............he is easily the biggest shepherd I have ever seen

)I do have a picci CC and Murphy) will try and upload

anyhow he is now 100% sociable and now runs out daily with 20 + dogs

, I would never ever have rolled him

but the body blocking (I very commonly use) but would not advise anyone who has no previous experience of this, basically the end result is the dog will look for guidance before even attempting to engage in the aggressive behaviour when previous when there was no reprimand or consiquence they would literally be on and smother said victim!...........it is actualy pretty easy to over come..........BUT u always have to make provisions for leaving unsupervised dogs with others when they have previous aggression issues.
Bitches are worse as suggested but still with a good and experienced behaviourist it can be over come, I of course also have an abundance of dogs to help me

There are many a trigger for aggression making it one of the most complexed behavioural issues, just to mention a few, unsociable/dominance/fear/ and I deal with a lot of cases that are as simple as dogs never having interacted in play or the initiation of play with another dog which results in an extreme reaction (fighting/squealing/submission/flight...... in regard to play or indeed normal dog on dog interaction.

Good luck
You should live closer

 

[Vizslak]

Im really sorry to hear this Ali (not in a disappointed or disapproving way)

I hope you manage to sort it out with the help of a trainer. Having not met Rubes or Nala I can't really offer advice on how to resolve the issue. I have had a pack issue with two dominant bitches before but this doesn't appear to be the same reading through both posts. Neither of them were people aggressive either. I still stick by what I said a while ago about getting the feeling the children in the previous home were probably quite tormenting and had been allowed to take things from her and tease her with food/toys etc when she was young.

If I can think of anything that may help I will let you know, in the meantime keep us updated... I hope all settles soon and the girls can be happy together and Ruby less of a problem! Biting really isn't acceptable but she is a baby (especially for her breeding) and I'm confident its an issue that with help you will be able to resolve