Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?

[scats]

I’m a big believer that horses should have ample turnout time, but I also have no problem with horses being stabled some of the time (overnight in winter for mine, daytime in summer when flies are bad).
If a yard can offer 6-8 hours turnout in winter, I think that’s pretty good going. What I don’t agree with is yards who have no turnout at all in winter and horses spend 6 months only coming out of their stable to be ridden. I don’t think that is a suitable way for a horse to live.

My horses are now stabled overnight. They go out at 7am and then come in at 5pm to be worked. Bedded down with feed and hay at 7pm.
There’s no doubt some people on here will disagree with that, but i have happy horses and I don’t think that they suffer in any way from this routine.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I’m a big believer that horses should have ample turnout time, but I also have no problem with horses being stabled some of the time (overnight in winter for mine, daytime in summer when flies are bad).
If a yard can offer 6-8 hours turnout in winter, I think that’s pretty good going. What I don’t agree with is yards who have no turnout at all in winter and horses spend 6 months only coming out of their stable to be ridden. I don’t think that is a suitable way for a horse to live.

My horses are now stabled overnight. They go out at 7am and then come in at 5pm to be worked. Bedded down with feed and hay at 7pm.
There’s no doubt some people on here will disagree with that, but i have happy horses and I don’t think that they suffer in any way from this routine.

I like that routine!

 

[Wishfilly]

I think every day turnout in a herd is honestly fine.

My pony has gone from being in during the day in summer (and overnight in winter) to being out 24/7 in a small group, coming in just to be fed or ridden. Especially in the poor weather we've had recently, he's waiting at the gate to come in, and he doesn't seem that keen on going out! I'm almost tempted to bring him in for at least a few hours each day to see if he prefers it. There's a lot of natural shelter in his field, too, and it still looks like there's a lot of good grass.

I suppose you could say he is a bit institutionalised.

24/7 turnout is a lot easier for me, but I feel guilty, because I feel like I'm keeping him out solely for my own convenience.

 

[Sossigpoker]

They don't need to be out 24/7 and indeed a lot of horses enjoy coming in for a sleep. But I'd like mine to be out more than he's in.
My yard is able to provide year round over night turn out and that works for us. All the horses enjoy coming in for some feed and a good sleep and a chance to dry out

 

[Caol Ila]

Hermosa is still on 24/7 turnout at the moment, and she is not impressed. She's keen to come into the barn, eat hay, do a bit of work, then I have to drag her back to the field. On Nov 3rd, she moves to Fin's yard, where they are stabled at night and out during the day in winter, and reverse in summer. I don't think she will mind.

Gypsum was never a candidate for 24/7 turnout, or any turnout that had the wrong juju. She was a terrible fencewalker. Any set-up where she did not fencewalk was a good set-up, even if it wasn't textbook. It usually wasn't. But she lived until age 28 and was sound until age 27.

Track systems sound ideal but having one in Scotland that did not look like the Somme would entail £££££££££££££££.

One can argue that Foinavon lived in an optimum welfare situation when he was wild. 2000 acres to roam, a naturalish herd (the males were all gelded from 2011 onwards), no humans dictating how they lived their lives. But now it's a distinctly sub-optimal situation, with low end dealers picking them off and selling them on as horses who need a bit of retraining, not feral ponies. He is definitely better off with me, learning to be a sweet little riding horse, than that.

If you asked Fin, would he rather go back to Dallas (not knowing about the low end dealer problem) or stay put, what would he say? I often wonder. He usually tries to cooperate with me but he is more than capable of saying no.

 

[ycbm]

Some of the arguments from "that other thread".

It's essential to joint/ muscle health for the horse to be turned out. Is it? The Household Cavalry seem to manage to get 16 years work from horses that are in stalls, not even stables, without turnout for most of their lives from 4 to 22 when they retire. Even if this was true, you would need to balance field injuries against whatever damage is caused from insufficient movement. Most of the injuries which I've treated in 44 years of horse ownership were caused by group turnout or group barn housing. Some were life threatening, 3 risked the sight of an eye.

Horses need to be able to make choices about what they do. Do they? In the wild surely only one horse makes the choices, the rest follow? I've seen some horses find having to make choices stressful, and observed that most horses like to follow, not lead.

Horses are designed to move constantly in the wild. Are they? They move to find food. If food is plentiful they barely move at all. In bad weather many turned out horses stand still for hours. Many turned out horses stand in one spot for hours irrespective of the weather.

Horses in single stables are stressed. Are they? I have moved a horse which used to be herd kept in 10 acres with access to a 90ft x 38ft barn. Tonight he is in a 14x12 stable in the middle a barn of 20. I often leave the door of the stable open while I fuss with stuff. He doesn't even attempt to leave the stable. That doesn't seem like a horse stressed by being in a stable to me, and he's been like this ever since he was first removed from the "perfect" environment I used to keep him in 6 months ago.

Cats, dogs and humans don't want to be locked up in cages. Horses are not cats, dogs or humans. They are preyed upon animals who I am convinced often find security from being inside walls.

I've met horses which hate being in, horses which hate being out and horses everywhere in between. Horses who hate company, horses who hate not having company and horses who don't care either way. Horses who get ulcers in busy environments and horses that are bored witless by quiet ones, and everything in between.

And I think whatever anyone chooses to do with their horse which is legal and doesn't appear to be causing the horse concern or illness is nobody else's business.
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[Caol Ila]

I should say that Fin has become a keen dressage pony because he loves being in his “nothing box.” He wants to follow directions and not think too hard or worry. He’s realised dressage is the best for this!!!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

My observations of my current 2.
B fuzzy spent 6 nights in her stable over last winter when it was necessary for my ease of things when it was very wet and I needed her dry for farrier, vet and 2 very early doors comps and not possibly dripping instead.
She's very happy to tuck herself up in the larger field shelter if it's very wet, hot etc. Its bedded down with straw. Just about every morning she has straw in her tail and crinkle marks from lying in it. Her choice. Further up the fields there is another shelter she also uses if v wet or hot too, but given the choice she prefers the one bedded down.
Equally, when we go away she is very accepting of being stabled anywhere. She appears to like comfort.....which she never had in her 1st 8 years living out on a cliff top with only short gorse as a windbreak. Friends have seen her run for cover regularly when it rains here.....

Little A prefers to be out rummaging 24/7 but due to 'issues' she is only permitted to do this in daylight times and has to endure being in a 10m x 10m pen which has a 10 x 12 shelter along one side. She uses the shelter to eat, pee and poo in, preferring to scuff and snuffle around outside in the pen, getting sodden etc.

Because I only have the 2 these days, they can free range and choose to use natural or man made shelters or not.

 

[Peglo]

I should say that Fin has become a keen dressage pony because he loves being in his “nothing box.” He wants to follow directions and not think too hard or worry. He’s realised dressage is the best for this!!!

mine is the opposite. She’s too clever for me. She now knows our dressage test whilst I need to keep practicing and she needs to be kept busier hacking but I just want to stroll. But I do think we have fun so that’s the real win.

 

[spotty_pony]

It really depends on the horse. The part livery yard you are on though sounds nice and the horses sound like they are in a good routine. I’ve always liked mine out 24/7 in summer during summer but that’s just me. When he was a lot younger, I kept him on yards with limited turnout in the winter but don’t think I’d ever do that again now. He was very fit, but I always made sure I rode him when he couldn’t get out. Sometimes we were doing 10 hours worth of hacking per week just to keep him feeling well exercised and mentally happy. He is now 23 and lives out all year round but does come in the stable most days cor
A few hours and stays in when the weather is bad. He has arthritis so I like to keep him moving, but he also likes his stable
too. I wouldn’t over think it too much though - if your yard is providing daily turnout and good care, that’s all any horse would want.

 

[Winters100]

For me it is an issue which is very personal to both the horse and the owner. I would not be able to manage horses without turnout, mainly because I believe that it is so beneficial to them, and for almost all horses should be a 'right', but also because to properly manage them without any turnout would be simply too time consuming. When I have had horses with simple ailments such as hoof infections (so unable to go into a wet paddock) it has been a nightmare to get there at the crack of dawn to turn out in the arena before others need it, come back at lunchtime and at night to hand walk.

That having been said I do not believe that the majority of horses need 24 hour turnout. Where I am it is available, but I hardly ever do it (mosquitoes in summer and cold in winter). My general routine is to turn out dawn to dusk, and it seems to suit mine fine.

I would only be cautions if buying a horse who had been used to 24 turnout for many years. If not what you can offer sounds perfectly suitable.

 

[Caol Ila]

Hermosa likes being mentally engaged, and so did Gypsum. I had to be thinking, how am I going to make schooling interesting. They love (or loved) thinking.

If Fin had been born as a warmblood, he would be a great GP prospect. There was that whole row on the forum about "micro-managing" dressage horses. However you interpret that, he's pretty sure it's living the dream. If the humans are going to be on your back, they might as well be telling you exactly what to do, and if you're within these nice, safe fences so you don't have to worry about anything and you switch off your brain. Ideal, if you are Fin.

Horses are all so different.

 

[lynz88]

I'm am advocate of 24/7 turnout but it doesn't always work well for the horse. Mine absolutely loves being out....he makes that well known....but especially during winter, likes coming in despite his arthritis and moving around being better. I also did an experiment a number of years ago whereby in the summer he lived out and would only be brought in for his breakfast and dinner and then put back out. He thrived. However come winter, despite rugging him up like a bug, he lost a LOT of weight. He wasn't sleeping and he just shivered everything off.

I think 8 hours outside during the winter is plenty good. I have avoided places where mine isn't in overnight knowing what he is like now during the winter and I have also avoided places that do individual turnout or only half day turnout. It's not enough IMO and horses are generally social creatures (especially mine). Every horse has its own needs and as long as those are met then job done.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have a two year old that is supposed to be out with her friends but literally runs to her stable if she gets half the chance and is always reluctant to go back out but especially so if it’s raining or might get mud on her feet. There is haylege and horsey friends in the fields 8 acres in several paddocks which she has freedom to wander between but her favourite place to be is her stable. She is in tonight cos ive had a crappy day and couldnt be bothered yo chuck her back out when she put herself to bed this afternoon… my gut feeling is when she is in work she will barely go out… not because she isnt allowed but because she does want to.

 

[teapot]

I worked somewhere that was 24/7 turnout. Unless they needed a box on the advice of a vet, they were out bar being ridden/groomed/farrier etc.

It really isn’t the be all and end all, and that was with grazing and the maintenance to go with it that some yards could only ever dream of.

 

[Caol Ila]

You just have to work with your horse and make the best of what you got.

I often agree with @stangs, but if you had owned Gypsum, you would have burned all your peer reviewed studies on a flaming pyre, putting Denethor to shame, downed a bottle of whisky, and then curled up into a sobbing ball of despair. I did this a lot. Except for the pyre. I should have done that.

 

[Gallop_Away]

And I think whatever anyone chooses to do with their horse which is legal and doesn't appear to be causing the horse concern or illness is nobody else's business.
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It is arguably nobody else's business but I personally think a horse being confined to a stable 23hrs a day for half of the year is a welfare issue. I have seen people attempt to justify and yes in some cases it may suit some horses, but I can not see any justifiable reason that the average horse is better off being confined to a stable for the majority of the day, 6 months of the year however people may try to justify it. It is fair to say that the average horse benefits from some form of daily turnout for at least a few hours a day and that is better for them mentally and physically than being confined to a stable 23hrs a day.

As for it not causing illness or concern to the horses, again I would argue it most definitely can be a cause for stress in horses. The majority of racehorse spend the majority of their time in a stable and stable vices such as cribbing, weaving, box walking etc are very commob among them.

My very experienced and senior vet also told me once after my mare had an impaction colic, that in her professional opinion, lack of turnout and movement in horses during winter is a massive contributor to the amount of colic cases we see during those months. Of course there are many other reasons it could be that a horse colics, but I can understand the logic, and in my vets experience, she sees an increase in colic cases during the winter months and particularly in horses on heavily restricted or practically no turnout. Our then yard owner had decided to limit turnout that winter. I moved my horses a month later to our current yard and haven't looked back. I will never keep my horses at a yard that restricts turnout again.

I see people attempt to justify keeping their horses in 23hrs a day so many times on this forum and I understand people must do the best with what they have, but personally if I couldn't offer my horses some form of daily turnout for a few hours a day 365 days a year, I personally wouldn't choose to have them.

 

[DabDab]

But this thread isn't asking about the ethics of keeping a horse in 23 hours a day.

People asserting that all horses will be Absolutely Fine stabled that much is as bonkers as people asserting that 24/7 turnout is the only ethical way to keep a horse. Horses are as individual as people and you can garner all the research that you want but you still need to deal with the horse you have in front of you.

 

[Gallop_Away]

But this thread isn't asking about the ethics of keeping a horse in 23 hours a day.

People asserting that all horses will be Absolutely Fine stabled that much is as bonkers as people asserting that 24/7 turnout is the only ethical way to keep a horse. Horses are as individual as people and you can garner all the research that you want but you still need to deal with the horse you have in front of you.

My post was in response to ycbm not the thread in general but threads and discussions do have a tendency to evolve.
As I say in my posy above, in some cases it may suit some horses, but I am talking in general terms. I also commonly see people saying their horses are stabled the majority of the time, not because their horse prefers it, but because it suits them or the yard to do so.

 

[ycbm]

It is arguably nobody else's business but I personally think a horse being confined to a stable 23hrs a day for half of the year is a welfare issue. I have seen people attempt to justify and yes in some cases it may suit some horses, but I can not see any justifiable reason that the average horse is better off being confined to a stable for the majority of the day, 6 months of the year however people may try to justify it. It is fair to say that the average horse benefits from some form of daily turnout for at least a few hours a day and that is better for them mentally and physically than being confined to a stable 23hrs a day.

As for it not causing illness or concern to the horses, again I would argue it most definitely can be a cause for stress in horses. The majority of racehorse spend the majority of their time in a stable and stable vices such as cribbing, weaving, box walking etc are very commob among them.

My very experienced and senior vet also told me once after my mare had an impaction colic, that in her professional opinion, lack of turnout and movement in horses during winter is a massive contributor to the amount of colic cases we see during those months. Of course there are many other reasons it could be that a horse colics, but I can understand the logic, and in my vets experience, she sees an increase in colic cases during the winter months and particularly in horses on heavily restricted or practically no turnout. Our then yard owner had decided to limit turnout that winter. I moved my horses a month later to our current yard and haven't looked back. I will never keep my horses at a yard that restricts turnout again.

I see people attempt to justify keeping their horses in 23hrs a day so many times on this forum and I understand people must do the best with what they have, but personally if I couldn't offer my horses some form of daily turnout for a few hours a day 365 days a year, I personally wouldn't choose to have them.

You quoted my last paragraph, but not the one above it.

I've met horses which hate being in, horses which hate being out and horses everywhere in between. Horses who hate company, horses who hate not having company and horses who don't care either way. Horses who get ulcers in busy environments and horses that are bored witless by quiet ones, and everything in between.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I know that track livery is really the best way to keep horses. There are no track liveries within reasonable distance I am willing to travel 1.5 hours if on part livery. I don't want to travel more 1.5 hours as I like to go to the yard after work and don't want to be home later than 11pm.

I cannot really move to another part of the country where there are track liveries because my parents are elderly I need to be able to get to them within 3 hours in case they need help in an emergency and also to visit them.

So the moral dilemma is should only people with their own land who can keep their horses in the optimum way have horses as anyone on livery even the perfect place could get that taken away from them should the yard close.

I probably will buy knowing I cannot offer the perfect turnout set up. What I can offer is a secure loving kind home with daily turnout and vet care when needed. With the understanding that yes it is selfish in the same way that people bring children into this world knowing that they cannot give them the perfect life.

I think track systems *can* be a very useful form of livery but I dont think they are necessarily the gold star treatment. I had my native on a track system and he hated it and it was awful physically on him. The vet was in agreement I tried it when I discussed it with them and then recommended we left.

I'm not the only one I know whose horse hasn't liked a track system. I'm not saying they are bad per se, far from it as for some they are brilliant. But they are not the be all and end all and the only ethical solution they can be made out to be (largely by a lot of people in FB groups ?).

I don't know if it makes a difference but my native grew up lived feral in his natural environment for 5-6 years. He loves being stabled now. He's quite happy to live out 24/7 in nice weather (which is practically hard to manage for him with his weight management) but come September when the nights start drawing in and it gets a bit cooler, he will calmly stand at the gate and scream until you bring him in. Could not care less if he was the only one stabled ?

I'm now on a yard which allows 24/7 turn out from April(ish)-October(ish) and in overnight the rest of the time. I don't really turn out 24/7 much if at all. I use a mix of herd turn out, muzzling, restricted grazing - pony is slim, happy and fit (he happily goes for 20 mile hacks regularly) although does have to be carefully managed weight wise which is far more than could be said when he was on a track.

In reality over the Spring/Summer/Autumn he does a mix of hybrid living dictated by the weather of: out 24/7 in field with friends (muzzled or unmuzzled or a bit of both) - which is rare but this year we managed a few weeks out 24/7 due to lack of grass, turned out at night in the herd and individual bare paddock in day, turned out at night in herd and stabled in the day, turned out in the herd or individual paddock during the day and stabled at night

He's currently out in the herd unmuzzled in the day and come in between 5-7pm in the evening.
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In the past I've been on yards where 24/7 turn out isn't possible and the winter turn out was restricted in some way - either by length of time out (for years mine came in during winter by 2.30-3.30 due to yard ruless) or closing fields for periods when very wet or snow/ice.

To answer your question no, I don't think I shouldn't own a horse because I don't own my own land and can't provide 24/7 turn out all year around.

Yes, the yard might get closed or cease to serve my needs but life is flexible and I've always been able to find somewhere suitable to keep my horse. You adjust when you need to.

You sound like you'd make a new pony very happy as a very caring & thoughtful owner who would be lucky to have you

 

[ycbm]

I also commonly see people saying their horses are stabled the majority of the time, not because their horse prefers it, but because it suits them or the yard to do so.

For most people, horses aren't pets. This might change in future in several ways, but for now, if you bought your horse to ride then it's reasonable to want to keep it in a place where you can do the riding you want to do provided that the horse seems healthy and accepting of the way it is being kept.

I was at four different yards in the 80's, a 60 box yard with no turnout at all from October to hay cut, and a 30 box yard with turnout on one day of the week and two 30 box yards in Geneva with no turnout at all, one of those stalled not stabled. I've also been a regular visor at two UK yards with turnout every other day, one of those yards in a mud patch. I was not aware of any significant level of stereotypical behaviour, I can't remember one case of colic, and I do remember most of the horses appearing to be content.
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[Errin Paddywack]

I would choose a dedicated, caring owner over a "perfect" turnout situation any day

This 100%. In my opinion any pony would be very lucky to be owned by you, get searching for your next best friend.

 

[stangs]

Would you ride at a RS or share a horse that did not live out or would you just give up horses if you were not lucky enough to find that horses that were kept that way?

I previously worked at a RS that offered very little turnout. Seeing how it affected those horses, and not being able to do anything to help them - and then spending time at a yard where the horses had the dream turnout scenario, tens of acres over varied terrain - is probably the reason turnout remains one of my most black-and-white views.

I did used to ride at various riding schools without much turnout. It was a tricky tradeoff as, on the one hand, do you want to support this type of management but, on the other, I wanted to ride (selfish as that sounds) and I wanted to support riding schools as an industry. However, I drew the line at a couple yards that had foul management situations even though they were well-regarded in some other ways.

I’ve also had share horses with very little turnout. You could make a strong argument that I was supporting poor management choices, but to what extent is my 20 quid a week enough to keep the owner owning that horse? But I did end up ending share agreements with very poor turnout earlier than others, because the guilt of bringing them in after two hours out made the whole ordeal unpleasant.

The main difference of RS horses/share horses, for me, is that I have no control over their management. And since the job I mentioned, I’ve become good at not getting emotionally attached to horses, so the lack of turnout affects me less. But nothing beats turning a horse out and watching them get a good roll in, and then gallop to their friends, having to make choices along the way in terms of how they’ll interact with the environment.

My boy lives out, but there are still compromises I’ve had to make (that I wouldn’t have to make if I owned my own land, and had the money to design the ideal set up - which is unlikely to ever happen). And it’s not that 24/7 turnout = the highest level of welfare. But, in his case and my case, it was the bare minimum, and I still spend a stupid amount of time trying to think of how I can improve his environment for him.

In a way, my qualm is less with people who stable 10 hours a day or so, and more with people who aren’t interested in improving their horse’s life, whether that be through more turnout, enrichment, varied exercise, etc. People who think “acceptable” is enough.

 

[stangs]

You just have to work with your horse and make the best of what you got.

I often agree with @stangs, but if you had owned Gypsum, you would have burned all your peer reviewed studies on a flaming pyre, putting Denethor to shame, downed a bottle of whisky, and then curled up into a sobbing ball of despair. I did this a lot. Except for the pyre. I should have done that.

Correct me if I've mistaken her for another HHO horse, but weren't Gypsum's problems partially because she spent her years as a youngster with little herd turnout?

 

[Bernster]

Your set up sounds pretty good to me! I like 24/7 and would love more options at yards inc seeing more track systems. But it’s not there so I do the best I can without it, in my mind, compromising the horse’s health and welfare. Most yards I’ve been at have similar arrangements to the one you mention although sadly in winter the turnout is a bit shorter sometimes.

 

[Gloi]

You've just got to do what you can.
If you didn't buy a horse because you couldn't find 24 hour turnout , the horse would likely be bought by another person who couldn't find it either.

 

[ycbm]

More thoughts on this issue.

Group turnout is only safe if the herd is stable (or introductions are very careful), has no bullies, and has safe fencing (my experience is the bigger the field the worse the fencing is likely to be, with barbed wire low down particularly dangerous). Finding all that in one place as a livery can be nigh on impossible. Comparing musculoskeletal injury rates in turned out or not turned out horses without factoring in turnout related injuries is meaningless.

Grass is an over rated food source. I've met several horses allergic to it. Nature designed them to eat scrub, not fresh green stuff. My horse's feet have improved in strength markedly since his move. I certainly can't attribute that to the reduction in turnout or to any increase in work. He's looking, (if I say it myself though I always did say he would be 8 before he really came into himself) magnificent physically all over and I believe a lot of that's actually due to a reduction in his grass intake.

I see horses out in all weathers in the UK winters standing still for hours and the joys of doing that, especially in wet ground, escape me. It's also my impression that stabled horses lie down a lot more than horses in a wet field, and that relieves pressure on the joints, allows a proper sleep, and shows that the horse is relaxed.

I get that a lot of horses, given the choice of an open stable or a field would choose the field. I suspect that they do that because their instinct is to be able to run away from predators faster than the predator can run. That doesn't necessarily mean that a horse is automatically stressed by having that choice removed. Choice is in itself stressful because it includes the possibility of your choice being the wrong one.
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[stangs]

I mean, the big thing (the really big thing) in welfare science these days is providing animals choice, e.g., through enrichment. It’s uncontrollable stressors that lead to chronic stress, not choice. But hey, what do the experts know…

 

[ycbm]

I mean, the big thing (the really big thing) in welfare science these days is providing animals choice, e.g., through enrichment. It’s uncontrollable stressors that lead to chronic stress, not choice. But hey, what do the experts know…

Can you please point me to that research in horses?
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