Should you buy a horse if you cannot offer 24/7 turnout and can only be on livery?

[eahotson]

Some of the arguments from "that other thread".

It's essential to joint/ muscle health for the horse to be turned out. Is it? The Household Cavalry seem to manage to get 16 years work from horses that are in stalls, not even stables, without turnout for most of their lives from 4 to 22 when they retire. Even if this was true, you would need to balance field injuries against whatever damage is caused from insufficient movement. Most of the injuries which I've treated in 44 years of horse ownership were caused by group turnout or group barn housing. Some were life threatening, 3 risked the sight of an eye.

Horses need to be able to make choices about what they do. Do they? In the wild surely only one horse makes the choices, the rest follow? I've seen some horses find having to make choices stressful, and observed that most horses like to follow, not lead.

Horses are designed to move constantly in the wild. Are they? They move to find food. If food is plentiful they barely move at all. In bad weather many turned out horses stand still for hours. Many turned out horses stand in one spot for hours irrespective of the weather.

Horses in single stables are stressed. Are they? I have moved a horse which used to be herd kept in 10 acres with access to a 90ft x 38ft barn. Tonight he is in a 14x12 stable in the middle a barn of 20. I often leave the door of the stable open while I fuss with stuff. He doesn't even attempt to leave the stable. That doesn't seem like a horse stressed by being in a stable to me, and he's been like this ever since he was first removed from the "perfect" environment I used to keep him in 6 months ago.

Cats, dogs and humans don't want to be locked up in cages. Horses are not cats, dogs or humans. They are preyed upon animals who I am convinced often find security from being inside walls.

I've met horses which hate being in, horses which hate being out and horses everywhere in between. Horses who hate company, horses who hate not having company and horses who don't care either way. Horses who get ulcers in busy environments and horses that are bored witless by quiet ones, and everything in between.

And I think whatever anyone chooses to do with their horse which is legal and doesn't appear to be causing the horse concern or illness is nobody else's business.
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I met a woman once who had a bought a possibly only part welsh which had wintered on in the mountains for three years.She said everyone said to her that she would never get him into a stable after that? She said "Get him in? Its getting him out thats the problem!!! He loves his stable.I think he got seriously cold outside.

 

[eahotson]

To be honest, in a perfect world we would all have perfect lives, but we don't.We have to compromise and so do our horses sometimes.So long as the compromises are reasonable I don't think it matters much.

 

[Smogul]

Grass is an over rated food source. I've met several horses allergic to it. Nature designed them to eat scrub, not fresh green stuff. .

I see horses out in all weathers in the UK winters standing still for hours and the joys of doing that, especially in wet ground, escape me. It's also my impression that stabled horses lie down a lot more than horses in a wet field, and that relieves pressure on the joints, allows a proper sleep, and shows that the horse is relaxed.
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Totally agree. There are several native ponies at our yard. 24hr access to grass would kill them off pretty quickly. We are lucky that there is one field deliberately kept in poor condition (thistles, nettles, weeds) but even then there is more than enough for at least one to have weight problems.

There are also a couple of horses who collapse and sleep as soon as they come in. They don't lie down in the field and seem to need the security of their stable to relax.

 

[Gloi]

I met a woman once who had a bought a possibly only part welsh which had wintered on in the mountains for three years.She said everyone said to her that she would never get him into a stable after that? She said "Get him in? Its getting him out thats the problem!!! He loves his stable.I think he got seriously cold outside.

Mine had a similar upbringing and is always shouting to come back in if it is at all bad weather. He's gone soft.

 

[ycbm]

I bought a four year old who had never lived in. The slightest sign of rain, he ran, and I mean ran, for the field shelter.
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[Skib]

When I started to hack, it was at a RS with no turn out. My favourite Connie mare hacked 3 or 4 hours a day, six days a week, and was never lame or off work.
For centuries horses have lived and worked in London, either with no turnout or turned away in the country for only a month or two each year. That RS did the same. The brewery horses here are gone, but army horses, police horses and rangers horses on some commons and woods are still in work.
If I ever buy a horse it wont have 24/7. It will have to work. Almost all the horses I subsequently rode or shared have been turned out at night and stabled during the day.

 

[Gallop_Away]

For most people, horses aren't pets. This might change in future in several ways, but for now, if you bought your horse to ride then it's reasonable to want to keep it in a place where you can do the riding you want to do provided that the horse seems healthy and accepting of the way it is being kept.

I was at four different yards in the 80's, a 60 box yard with no turnout at all from October to hay cut, and a 30 box yard with turnout on one day of the week and two 30 box yards in Geneva with no turnout at all, one of those stalled not stabled. I've also been a regular visor at two UK yards with turnout every other day, one of those yards in a mud patch. I was not aware of any significant level of stereotypical behaviour, I can't remember one case of colic, and I do remember most of the horses appearing to be content.
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With respect, we have been over this before and we will never see eye to eye on this.

For me, regardless of why we keep our horses, their welfare must ALWAYS come first, and for me, this is a welfare issue that I will always speak up about. To me this is just as big an issue as equine obesity or too heavy a rider on too small a horse. I'm sure many of those horses seem "content" with their lot in life but that doesn't make it OK and we as owners must strive for better. Horses are pretty placid by nature and can be conditioned to accept many situations, that doesn’t make it OK.

I'm glad my yard owner values the welfare of her liveries over pristine fields. Yes winter paddocks look like crap where they are out during the day in the winter months, but they are rotated twice yearly. Currently watching mine having a good roll in said mud after I've just turned them out for the day. I'll take that over confining them to a box and day.

 

[criso]

Just wanted to add that knowing the riding school you ride at, the horses there get very little turnout.

So the life you could offer a horse is already better than that situation in terms of access to turnout.

My personal must haves are daily turnout in winter, night in summer and a friend or two.

The people who have access to 24/7 are in a minority. There is pressure on land from planning and at the same time wetter winters mean you realistically need more land to avoid ending up as a mudpit so turnout is going to be even more difficult to provide.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think your turnout sounds fine I would be happy with that for my horses and mine are at home so I have the 24-7 option but they do come in if the weather is bad or it gets too muddy for overnight, then they tend to have the odd night out rather than continually out.

 

[JBM]

My mare loves being out 24/7
My 5yo tb can’t get inside quick enough..he wasn’t built for the outdoors
I’ve tried him 24/7 out and doesn’t go well he thrives on a mix

 

[Birker2020]

Tracks in fields only suits certain horses! Most high level competition horses and racehorses get very little turnout. For me, as long as my boy gets a few hours turnout per day he is happy. I think as long as it works for you, its no one elses place to judge ?

Yes I agree.
Lari us out for approx 15hrs a day in the Summer and 7-8 hrs in the winter as are all the horses on the yard.

Its never caused issues. Seeing a load of miserable horses huddled around a gate stood in 2ft mud, kicking and shoving and waiting to come in by their owners as witnessed on a yard I used to be at when my horse there was turned out in a herd was no fun.

I actually lost a horse due to broken leg from a kick which may have been from huddling around the gate on that very yard.

I don't really see any benefit from keeping them out for long periods of time in miserable weather myself. When I went to get Lari in this morning in heavy rain at 6.30am with headtorch on, he literally dragged me in ?

 

[teapot]

Where I currently ride, the horses have very little turnout during the winter yet have always felt and looked 100x better than the horses I rode who were out 24/7.

Horse management and welfare isn’t and cannot be a black and white thing. I’d far rather a horse had less turnout but felt supple and looked well in themselves. You can keep a horse out 24/7 365 days a year but if other aspects aren’t managed well, it really doesn’t benefit the horse the way people think it does.

 

[scats]

I think it’s worth remembering that horses are creatures of habit and easily get into a routine based on this. If a horse knows it comes in to a stable of hay everyday, it’s bound to be enthusiastic to come in during bad weather. Owners can be fooled into thinking that said horse is desperate to come in, but the reality is, if the horse wasn’t used to coming in and didn’t know it was coming in to a haynet, it probably wouldn’t seem quite as eager.
We are very good, humans, at interpreting things the way we wish to see them.

I still have no problems with stabling, but I do keep in mind that my girls would probably happily adapt to 24/7 turnout if needed, despite how much they seem to like coming in.

 

[DabDab]

Mine had a similar upbringing and is always shouting to come back in if it is at all bad weather. He's gone soft.

Out of my three the formally feral native is definitely the one most attached to her stable. She's also much more a fan of 'organised fun' that I plan for her than the galloping about merriment that the other two are fond of.

 

[DabDab]

I think it’s worth remembering that horses are creatures of habit and easily get into a routine based on this. If a horse knows it comes in to a stable of hay everyday, it’s bound to be enthusiastic to come in during bad weather. Owners can be fooled into thinking that said horse is desperate to come in, but the reality is, if the horse wasn’t used to coming in and didn’t know it was coming in to a haynet, it probably wouldn’t seem quite as eager.
We are very good, humans, at interpreting things the way we wish to see them.

I still have no problems with stabling, but I do keep in mind that my girls would probably happily adapt to 24/7 turnout if needed, despite how much they seem to like coming in.

Very true, but also true that horses get used to living out and horses may seem content but are actually quite shut down

 

[Chiffy]

I am rather late to this thread but have been interested in the differing opinions. I have never thought that anyone would decide they couldn’t own a horse if it couldn’t live out 24/7. However lots of differing opinions in how they should be kept.
I have never kept a horse on a livery yard so my experience is limited but my horses, all my life have been out in the day and in at night. Now I am old it is my daughter, son in law and grandchildren who are in charge of the horses/ ponies. It suits them to do the same. All our horses are competing and in regular work and seem relaxed and happy with their way of life, always ready to come in in the evenings and content in their stables.
Maybe we do it because that is what suits us, but I am sure we wouldn’t if we had stressed horses that didn’t look well and weren’t content.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that we should all be leaving our horses out 24/7 365 days of the year. My lot are stabled overnight in winter and love coming in to their nice dry stables for some food and a sleep, and also are happy to stay in when the weather is awful.
I don't believe in an all or nothing approach with turnout. I think a happy medium between having adequate turnout time and a warm dry stable out of bad weather is ideal in the majority of cases.
Turnout also need not consist of grass. There are other options to turn horses out. I simply dislike this idea that horses must be kept off ground in winter to avoid churning it up. With the greatest of respect, I do not believe yards that can not accommodate turnout for horses throughout the year in one form or another, should be operating as livery yards. I would also happily pay more livery if it meant making sure my horses have adequate turnout time throughout the year.

 

[splashgirl45]

So much depends on the type of soil in your area. I have always been in areas with clay soil and 24/7 turnout in winter is almost impossible unless you have a huge amount of land to rotate fields. I hate seeing horses gathered round the gate waiting to be fed and they are up to their knees in mud, not only is mud fever likely but pulled tendons and shoes being wrenched off. Horses are not now wild so most of them have not had the ideal upbringing of many acres of freeranging on different types of surface. As they are domesticated we all try to do the best we can with the facilities available. I feel that daily turnout for at least half of the day is acceptable, but preferably all day turnout for both winter and summer , my first horse was kept at a London based riding school with no turnout and a hard standing paddock which could be used for turning out loose for a run around, he was never injured. Once I had found somewhere with land he was continually getting Injured, either self inflicted or being kicked by other horses, so it’s not all good with turnout in a herd..

 

[JBM]

Does anyone turnout at night and in during the day?

 

[suestowford]

One of mine comes in during the day, spring & summer. He's only just started staying out during the day. He has Cushings, and now has arthritis, so it's a real balancing act between the exercise he needs, and the restricted grazing that he needs.
The other pony stays out all the time, but once the shelter is free (when the other pony isn't using it during the day) he will often choose to go in there.
I had an old horse who'd never had any stable or shed to go in. When he came here and got a nice shelter I had a job to get him out of it so I could clean it out!
So in my limited experience, there are ponies who are hard as nails but still like to be able to come in for a bit. If you can find one like that why not part-stabled?

 

[Ali27]

I’ve always kept my ponies/ horses on livery yards with 24/7 turnout from Spring to October and daily turn out in Winter where they’ve been turned out at 5.30/6 am and brought in at 5.30/6pm. I’ve only done individual turnout once when I lost my old mare so daughter’s pony was on her own. I now have my own place with nearly 5 acres. I’ve got three now happily in together and they are out 24/7 most of the year apart from when it gets really muddy/ horrible and they are in at night. They still get 12 hours turn out and I also have an all weather small yard outside stables which they can have if they need to stay in for farrier etc. I would say that my three are super happy and I love being able to manage them exactly how I want and how they are happiest ?

 

[ycbm]

For me, regardless of why we keep our horses, their welfare must ALWAYS come first, and for me, this is a welfare issue that I will always speak up about. To me this is just as big an issue as equine obesity or too heavy a rider on too small a horse. I'm sure many of those horses seem "content" with their lot in life but that doesn't make it OK and we as owners must strive for better. Horses are pretty placid by nature and can be conditioned to accept many situations, that doesn’t make it OK.

I agree with you completely. Welfare comes first for me too. But I want evidence that "content with life" is not good enough and that a horse which appears in all respects content with its life has welfare issues. I have yet to see any.
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[Gallop_Away]

I agree with you completely. Welfare comes first for me too. But I want evidence that "content with life" is not good enough and that a horse which appears in all respects content with its life has welfare issues. I have yet to see any.
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Then you have been very lucky but it is not something I am prepared to risk.

You may apply that logic to other issues within the equine world. An obese horse may not be crippled with laminitis and "content" to stuff it's face. Yet we as owners would not allow this to happen. A horse may carry an overweight rider without showing signs of discomfort, yet again just because a horse may appear accepting of this does not mean it is OK.

I also think you are confusing "acceptance" with "contentment". A horse may be conditioned accept it's circumstances, that does not mean it is content, and to be blunt, that line of thinking is a big part of the problem.

 

[malwhit]

It seemed a lot simpler when I last owned a horse 20 years ago. During the summer all of the horses were out day and night, in the winter they were brought in at night. As far as I remember, there was no choice but I may have just gone along with the option the owner suggested.
All of the horses both mares and geldings were turned out together, apart from two from the same owner who liked hers kept in their own paddock. It was a small livery yard with no more than 10-12 horses. All of the horses and owners got on well too.

 

[Birker2020]

Does anyone turnout at night and in during the day?

Currently, but turning around next weekend so in at night out during day until the Spring.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes I agree.
Lari us out for approx 15hrs a day in the Summer and 7-8 hrs in the winter as are all the horses on the yard.

Its never caused issues. Seeing a load of miserable horses huddled around a gate stood in 2ft mud, kicking and shoving and waiting to come in by their owners as witnessed on a yard I used to be at when my horse there was turned out in a herd was no fun.

I actually lost a horse due to broken leg from a kick which may have been from huddling around the gate on that very yard.

I don't really see any benefit from keeping them out for long periods of time in miserable weather myself. When I went to get Lari in this morning in heavy rain at 6.30am with headtorch on, he literally dragged me in ?

Aww BB is the same, he likes a hoolie about to stretch his legs but he will stand at the gate waiting to come back in when he has had enough ?
I wouldnt do herd grazing again either, supposing I had to drive 20 miles each way to see my boy I would choose that over herds anyday, having had two put down due to other folks nutjob horses ?

 

[ycbm]

You may apply that logic to other issues within the equine world. An obese horse may not be crippled with laminitis and "content" to stuff it's face. Yet we as owners would not allow this to happen. A horse may carry an overweight rider without showing signs of discomfort, yet again just because a horse may appear accepting of this does not mean it is OK.

They're is plenty of good scientific evidence that these are welfare issues.
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[ycbm]

I also think you are confusing "acceptance" with "contentment". A horse may be conditioned accept it's circumstances, that does not mean it is content, and to be blunt, that line of thinking is a big part of the problem.

Acceptance and contentment are synonymous in this context as far as I am concerned, as long as the acceptance is genuine and not shut-downness, and there are no verifiable mental or physical health implications.
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[Gallop_Away]

They're is plenty of good scientific evidence that these are welfare issues.
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There are many things we did with horses that was once acceptable but we now know differently.
I also think the line of thinking that something is acceptable until proven otherwise is very dangerous. We also have logic and good common sense and I find it quite worrying that anyone would advocate locking a horse in a 12x12 box 23hrs a day.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Acceptance and contentment are synonymous in this context as far as I am concerned,

And I'm afraid that right there is the problem.