"Shoulder-in is the 'medicine pill' of schooling" - Discuss

[wkiwi]

Thought I'd start a discussion thread, rather than an advice one for a change of scene

Shoulder-in is the 'medicine pill' of schooling

Discuss

 

[milliepops]

Everyone is out in the sunshine!

I definitely use shoulder-in and shoulder fore a lot and it's something I try to teach my horses early on. I feel safer on the dodgy ones if I can position them how I want in the arena or out hacking and teaching the aids/reactions actually gives you a lot to work with - effective outside rein control, straightening, inside bend, engagement, steering, focus. I usually ride on an inside track so that combined with S-in is really good to highlight straightness issues and if you can ride S-in off the track then you know you're on your way

I start S-in before leg yielding which is probably a bit odd but I have found the last few easier to start with the leg yield when I've already got all those other qualities sorted

And then when the horse is more established it's good for collecting, straightening other movements etc (I've been using it to help Kira learn to change to the left without also leaping left ) yup definitely a tool as well as a movement in itself.

 

[scats]

Like MP, I teach shoulder-fore before leg yield. I find it useful for dealing with spooky situations in the school and out hacking and it allows me to get a horse a bit more pliable early on and helps me straighten them.

I ride shoulder fore in pretty much every warm up I do, no matter what horse I’m on. Once they have mastered shoulder-fore, I will increase the angle a bit and move to shoulder-in, but often I take this step after teaching leg yield, depending on the horse.

 

[wkiwi]

lol- too hot in the sunshine for me (watching badminton xc on record instead).
Agree with everything you have put, including the teach before leg-yield.
Why do you think they took shoulder-in out of elementary dressage tests? It seems ridiculous to me that it is not required earlier than medium level.

 

[milliepops]

Why do you think they took shoulder-in out of elementary dressage tests? It seems ridiculous to me that it is not required earlier than medium level.

it certainly makes the jump up to medium a bit more daunting for some. God knows, it makes no sense to me! A bit of pokey leg yield at ele and then ALL the sideways at medium, oh, and you've got to sit all of a sudden too.

I have seen debates in the past about having lengthened strides at Novice but no sideways at all until ele and that's so watered down, I certainly train it all in a different order and get my lateral work on the way before we start to think about extensions.

 

[wkiwi]

it certainly makes the jump up to medium a bit more daunting for some. God knows, it makes no sense to me! A bit of pokey leg yield at ele and then ALL the sideways at medium, oh, and you've got to sit all of a sudden too.

I have seen debates in the past about having lengthened strides at Novice but no sideways at all until ele and that's so watered down, I certainly train it all in a different order and get my lateral work on the way before we start to think about extensions.

We must be old-fashioned.
Can't think it is helping the horses though, as there must be a lot of people thinking that they don't need to bother training lateral work (except leg-yield) until horse is 'better trained'. With so many horses now 'stuck' in prelim and novices chasing rosettes/championships etc. could this be one of the reasons?
Also think a lot of people are missing out on the fun stuff of lateral work because they think it is too hard to do, or because they think they have to have a medium level horse first?

 

[Otherwise]

it certainly makes the jump up to medium a bit more daunting for some. God knows, it makes no sense to me! A bit of pokey leg yield at ele and then ALL the sideways at medium, oh, and you've got to sit all of a sudden too.

I have seen debates in the past about having lengthened strides at Novice but no sideways at all until ele and that's so watered down, I certainly train it all in a different order and get my lateral work on the way before we start to think about extensions.

The lengthened strides at novice are a bit odd especially as I think everyone agrees extensions come from collection so why don't we see collection earlier? Problem is a lot of people don't move up from prelim and then if they do most consider the jump from novice to ele even harder. I don't think rearranging the level stuff is introduced at will make much of a difference in helping people move up the levels though.

I think a lot of people wait too long to start things in general, changes are easier when they're younger and haven't been drilled into staying in counter canter at all costs, work towards half steps can be started years before it's needed etc. Or maybe it's our tendency to try and perfect stuff before moving on, doing an exercise for the sake of it rather than as a way of improving the horses way of going. A lot of people hate or at least dislike dressage and it's no wonder if all they're doing is circles and straight lines in the school, that would bore me silly let alone the poor horse.

Back to shoulder in, I've watches a couple of clinics where the trainer has said that gymnastic schooling is the horses physio. The trainer doesn't believe in vet physio and the like, it's an interesting point of view that I don't really agree with but he strongly emphasises the value of shoulder in even with young horses.

 

[JFTDWS]

I've always seen it translated as "aspirin" in that context... But I agree with much of what's been said - I teach it before leg yield, and think the progression of BD tests is a little odd, and I do feel that a lot of people don't appreciate the importance of using lateral work to develop the young horse at lower levels, well before it's required in its "formal" sense in a test. I also agree that this is partly why so many people - and horses - think dressage is boring!

 

[NinjaPony]

Interesting. My pony does leg yield, shoulder in, travers, baby half passes at home despite only stepping up to elementary last year, and has done for years! He was doing leg yield and shoulder in before competing at novice. Admittedly he was a late starter, but it's so helpful for his strength, contact and energy. I would prefer to see easy level lateral work at novice than medium (perhaps I am biased as mine hasn't really got a proper medium trot) but I think the point still stands that especially for a young horse, medium can be quite an ask in terms of balance etc whereas lateral work really develops horses.

 

[Wheels]

Lateral work is so important to help them build strength and to help teach to carry themselves properly. I don't class leg yield as lateral work and I don't personally use it in training whereas SI and travers / half pass are actually useful training exercises.

Riders enjoy lateral work and so do horses IME and it improves the way of going so why not use it.

My 5yr old did his first few trot half pass steps the other day even though we are only competing prelim. Shoulder in, travers and renvers I use straight and on circles on a regular basis

 

[lula]

on the subject of shoulder in, does anybody use it as a basis to teach the horse half pass and if so, what sort of excerises would you do to introduce it?

 

[milliepops]

The lengthened strides at novice are a bit odd especially as I think everyone agrees extensions come from collection so why don't we see collection earlier? Problem is a lot of people don't move up from prelim and then if they do most consider the jump from novice to ele even harder. I don't think rearranging the level stuff is introduced at will make much of a difference in helping people move up the levels though.

I think a lot of people wait too long to start things in general, changes are easier when they're younger and haven't been drilled into staying in counter canter at all costs, work towards half steps can be started years before it's needed etc. Or maybe it's our tendency to try and perfect stuff before moving on, doing an exercise for the sake of it rather than as a way of improving the horses way of going. A lot of people hate or at least dislike dressage and it's no wonder if all they're doing is circles and straight lines in the school, that would bore me silly let alone the poor horse.

Back to shoulder in, I've watches a couple of clinics where the trainer has said that gymnastic schooling is the horses physio. The trainer doesn't believe in vet physio and the like, it's an interesting point of view that I don't really agree with but he strongly emphasises the value of shoulder in even with young horses.

Agree with all this. I do use a vet physio but I think you can do a lot for the horse's body by working it correctly to address asymmetries etc.

And 100% with you on changes - my old mare found them so difficult because she had the "urge" to change schooled out of her. All the trainers I had before the one I use now, were always about perfecting the canter, and so we stalled at medium for years. The next horse I started did changes before she could canter circles! I wasn't getting trapped like that again. She does counter canter as requested... it's just basic obedience after all. She's learning her 1 tempis now I'm sad that the old girl got stuck like that, I feel a bit gutted that I didn't push harder or just make a start myself, she had a decent canter but I got squashed by over-perfectionist training.
Horses change in the field from a crap canter after all!! You have to start somewhere.

 

[Mule]

I've only recently learned shoulder in, I've started riding shoulder fore quite a bit and I find it great for straightness.

I definitely was one of those riders who wasn't inclined to experiment in case I taught the horse the wrong thing, as both me and the horse are new to dressage.

I've started to enjoy spending time on my own with the horse and figuring out new things. My usual instructor wants everything done perfectly, which is good in a way
but also I find it discourages me from trying things out.

As horse is just coming back to work I haven't had lessons and I'm enjoying pottering about trying things out without any pressure.

I haven't missed competitions in the slightest. I just enjoy learning new things and getting better at communicating with the horse. Horse was headshaking badly yesterday so didn't ride him. I'm planning to try this evening when the pollen levels have decreased

 

[SEL]

I got back on the fat Appy yesterday after her 9 weeks off post tie-up and lameness. Just walk under saddle for a week and yup, we're doing shoulder in. She's stiff so I use it to supple her up and remind her where her back end is.

I tend to teach sideways early on with babies - not always pretty, but at least they understand it when you're trying to do gates etc. It's not just 'dressage stuff'.

 

[Wheels]

Agree with all this. I do use a vet physio but I think you can do a lot for the horse's body by working it correctly to address asymmetries etc.

And 100% with you on changes - my old mare found them so difficult because she had the "urge" to change schooled out of her. All the trainers I had before the one I use now, were always about perfecting the canter, and so we stalled at medium for years. The next horse I started did changes before she could canter circles! I wasn't getting trapped like that again. She does counter canter as requested... it's just basic obedience after all. She's learning her 1 tempis now I'm sad that the old girl got stuck like that, I feel a bit gutted that I didn't push harder or just make a start myself, she had a decent canter but I got squashed by over-perfectionist training.
Horses change in the field from a crap canter after all!! You have to start somewhere.

That's very interesting- having not done much 'dressage' before, mostly SJ, changes are something I've always taught early on but I've not then had to bother with counter canter.

I've always taught previous horses by going through trot and reducing the steps over time but is it better to do simple changes if you are training a dressage horse or does that not matter at the early stages?

 

[daffy44]

Shoulder in is a fantastic exercise and one of the most useful, I do teach leg yield first though. But I do shoulder in in all three paces and also in counter canter, excellent for general straightening, developing the push from the hind leg, improving the balance and engagement etc etc...

Totally agree it should be in elem tests, insane that its not, and also absolutely people wait too long to teach it (and many other things) at home. Also agree that good gymnastic schooling equates to a physio session.

The difference between SJ changes and dressage changes is the straightness of both horse and rider, it doesnt matter if you fling a sj horse into a change and its even a stride late behind. For a dressage horse the change must be both straight and clean. The dressage horse must also learn both simple and flying changes, the order you teach them is up to the individual.

 

[Otherwise]

I've always taught previous horses by going through trot and reducing the steps over time but is it better to do simple changes if you are training a dressage horse or does that not matter at the early stages?

I personally don't think it really matters which method you use as long as the end result is a clean, straight, uphill change. Sometimes if they're taught through trot they don't always change clean and will put in a short trot step, a bit like if they're taught over a pole some learn to change late behind. Not important in sj how they do the change but it is in dressage. Because of those possibilities I prefer to teach it by half passing or leg yielding in canter and then asking for the change, the horse being able to pretty much always pick up whichever lead I ask for anywhere in the school beforehand from walk or trot. I guess simple changes are more important to me from a balance and collection point of view but I don't teach changes directly from them.

 

[JustMe22]

I teach shoulder fore very early, and my big and unbalanced horse has been pretty much going down all long sides in it as well as playing with it on the circle when he gets too powerful and gangly for his own good. We do it in all paces and I find it really valuable for straightness as well as teaching the horse to sit. My horse has a particular tendency to want to nose dive and get long because his canter is big, and the shoulder in/shoulder fore helps him to just contain himself and push a bit more than he would normally. I tend to do it on the quarter line rather than along the wall to make sure we aren't drifting.

We do find shoulder-in in our elementary tests in South Africa as well as collected paces, but leg yield still comes in earlier (at Novice). In fact, there's even leg-yield from the wall to the centre line at Novice, which I think is quite a nice way to test the straightness. I still teach shoulder fore first, but find that once they've got the concept of positioning the shoulder and moving away from the leg, the leg-yield happens quite easily.

 

[Bob notacob]

For me ,and Bob the notacob, The use of (or rather the ability to gain use of) shoulder in,shoulder fore, travers and renvers are all about gaining control of the shoulders and the ability to direct them. Also counter flexion (editors note from bob, gee mike you actually know now what its called ..........peasant!)This has been the way into my somewhat sarcastic Irish draft.

 

[greybadger_19]

on the subject of shoulder in, does anybody use it as a basis to teach the horse half pass and if so, what sort of excerises would you do to introduce it?

When shoulder in and travers are established, the half pass comes for free really. When introducing the half pass (after checking that shoulder in / travers are working), I nearly always ride shoulder in, then a transition into half-pass. It's all the same (equine) body position, and only needs a subtle change in (rider) weight distribution, coupled with a slight lift of the inside rein, to achieve. I often them move on to shoulder in -> half pass -> pirouette -> half pass -> shoulder in.

 

[greybadger_19]

Thought I'd start a discussion thread, rather than an advice one for a change of scene

Shoulder-in is the 'medicine pill' of schooling

Discuss

100% agree. My horses, fairly early on, all work shoulder in, travers and half-pass. I teach turns on the forehand, turns on the haunches, and leg-yield (along the wall first to give the horse a hand), and then move to shoulder-fore and shoulder-in, adding counter-flexion to get renvers as it develops. All in walk on the youngsters as they become established.

That trio - shoulder in, travers and renvers, are absolutely magic exercises. I only ever ride them in order to school gymnastically and correct ways of going (one of my favourite little tit-bits is when a horse is being heavy on an outside rein, riding a few steps of renvers to compress that side, followed by shoulder-in or travers to lengthen and soften it again), rather than as a means to an end. If you're always disciplined with yourself when schooling, then you get the test-ready exercise for free.

 

[wkiwi]

My usual instructor wants everything done perfectly, which is good in a way but also I find it discourages me from trying things out.

Lots of great comments from everyone, but i found this particularly interesting. In the 'old days' (and I'm talking LAST CENTURY here and have the grey hairs to prove it), we were told that if your horse could do movements to an equivalent of a 6 then it was ok to move on to the next stage. Now it seems that people are expected to get 8's before they move on. Perhaps your instructor is stuck in this rut?

Dressage used to be on a points system so you couldn't stay in prelim or novice once your horse had been placed a certain amount of time, and we couldn't wait to get out of prelim and start doing something more interesting. As someone else has put, its boring for horse and rider to just go round in circles and straight lines.
Mind you, last century we didn't have any arenas and did schooling out on hacks. If you have a horse that doesn't like waves then take it to the beach and you will get the most fantastic lateral work. And keeping your horse at trot while someone else canters will give you extended trot in no time. Flying changes for every change of direction on a twisting track through the sand dunes. Horses soon learnt to associate the aids with the action, and after all a foal can do perfect changes so it is only us that mess them up.

 

[milliepops]

Lots of great comments from everyone, but i found this particularly interesting. In the 'old days' (and I'm talking LAST CENTURY here and have the grey hairs to prove it), we were told that if your horse could do movements to an equivalent of a 6 then it was ok to move on to the next stage. Now it seems that people are expected to get 8's before they move on. Perhaps your instructor is stuck in this rut?

I think this depends on peoples expectations (instructor and pupil both).
In order to be competitive these days an average score of 60% is not going to cut it. If you want to go to regionals or place at area festivals etc you want to be comfortably heading towards 70 which means a lot of 7s and perhaps some 8s. So I think this does mean people hang about at a level for longer - or compete at a level far below what they are training at home.
There's also an argument that paying enough attention to detail to get an 8 makes training the next thing easier - but I get what you're saying about an ambitious approach to moving up the levels.

That said I have often been happy to have a go at experimenting with stuff (that we don't yet need in competition) by myself. When I first started BD I had no transport and getting training was hard so I learnt by watching others and then having a go. i didn't always get it right, but horses are generous creatures and mine always tried to do what she thought I was asking so we usually got there by trial and error

I have regular training on the advanced horse but I'm still stretching both of our boundaries by myself at home... then we go for a lesson and are already part way towards developing something which means the lesson is spent improving an exercise rather than starting from scratch

 

[wkiwi]

I get where you're coming from milliepops. I was meaning more about work at home rather than in competition e.g. competing at novice but at home working on the next thing so the horse was ready for it when it came along and that way the shoulder-in or whatever would start to improve the novice scores (so that if you were getting say high 70's in Prelim, and low 60's at Nov then horse started to work on the elementary stuff at home and so on).
I think when we HAD to move up after gaining X points, it made people look ahead and think 'well, it won't take this horse long to get to the next grade so i better start workign more on xyz etc.

Stretching the boundaries is FUN isn't it

 

[milliepops]

Stretching the boundaries is FUN isn't it

Yeah definitely! I like to split sessions up into working on stuff mine know already, to improve the quality, and then we intersperse stuff they are just learning, which is like fun experimental work with no pressure to perform it well, only to really try I find it a useful way to keep them (and me) mentally in a good place and the additional work time is good for their fitness.

 

[NinjaPony]

Sometimes I think people forget about the 'work a level higher at home' rule (I use rule loosely!). If you follow that school of thought, you can start to incorporate the more advanced work in earlier, and use it to improve the competing score too.

 

[wkiwi]

Sometimes I think people forget about the 'work a level higher at home' rule (I use rule loosely!). If you follow that school of thought, you can start to incorporate the more advanced work in earlier, and use it to improve the competing score too.

I think you're right. Maybe its not said so commonly anymore

 

[ester]

I armed myself with a pony that didn't hold having a play and trying stuff out against me. I did discover, when he was about 21 that our version of a shoulder in wasn't actually quite right (having been to ride a few schoolmasters) and affecting the change did baffle him for a bit but we sorted it

On the topic did anyone hear pammy's description regarding angle on the centre line on badminton radio? It involved something like pointing the inside leg towards A and left be generally baffled!

 

[DabDab]

OK, just to be controversial then....

No, I don't think it is the pill for everything. Yes it's a very useful exercise but only when it fits into the bigger scheme of improving the way of going. If you're trotting round the school or in circles then to get a developing horse straight and forward and connected then you must be using sideways and bending aids anyway. If the are not manoeuvrable and straight enough then you can then use an appropriate lateral exercise to improve that, but you should know why you're doing it. Particularly in trot, a horse can shuffle along in all sorts of bendy positions, but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily having any appreciable benefit.

But yes, shoulder in done well is a very useful exercise. And I generally teach shoulder in and leg yield before canter.

 

[wkiwi]

On the topic did anyone hear pammy's description regarding angle on the centre line on badminton radio? It involved something like pointing the inside leg towards A and left be generally baffled!

I missed the bit about inside leg toward A, but there was a bit about how the rider's kneecap should be lined up between the horse's hindlegs (from the judges point of view).
I know a couple of years ago when Pammy was commentating with Carl that they said over and over that it was very important that the shoulder's come in, rather than the quarters go out - there were definitely some horses that did more of a legyield (probably because it is so hard to do it on the centre line compared to along the edge.