Show jumping team choices

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littlebea

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I have not been riding that long (started in 2005) and have been following top level show jumping for less time than that. I do enjoy it but I am getting frustrated at the performance of the British team in the nations cup. I really do not want to end up like an England football supporter being disappointed all the time!

So, I am wondering why they have chosen the people they have, or more to the point why certain people have not been chosen. Over the last year there have been five horse and rider combinations that I have thought were of a level that they should be being selected, so can someone please let me know why they are not. The five are:

Tina Fletcher and Promised Land
Vicky Tulloch and Soligette
Geoff Lucket and Brickfield Boy
Paul Barker and Ryefield
Scott Brash and Intertoy Z

I also think the above need to be selected to compete in a national team as I think they should all get more experience so that they can be considered for London 2012 as I really want to see Team GB improve on the Beijing results.
 
I'd like to see Soliegette over a 1.60m track as opposed to 1.50m. She looks to have the scope. It's a shame that Vicky doesn't have a second-string. That lack is even more of a problem now that Super League teams are restricted to 4. Ideally we'd want each of those to have a suitable reserve in case something goes wrong on the journey to or at the show. Tina has proven talent at the very top level but Promised Land is already 14, and not as reliable as all that - was very disappointing at Gt Yorks on 2nd day and in 1st jump-off of Cock d' the North. I don't think Temple Ryefield is a real 1.60m horse, but Temple Bonte Lola might well be and at just 8 is a real prospect for the future. Haven't seen enough of Brickfield Boy since Geoff took the ride but think Valblanc van het Panishof has more scope. Intertoy Z certainly looks impressive and Scott seems to do a good job with all his horses.
 
I've seen Soliegette jumping a 1.60 track - at chester British masters and the great Yorkshire also, also 1.55 Queens cup last year at Hickstead, jumped good every time... to be honest I dont think you get much more consistant. I dont think that having a second string should matter - at the end of the day it's only one horse that jumps on a team. That's precisely where we are going wrong - allowing people to jump on temas with their second string, and not getting the results. Although promised Land is 14 it has been one of the most consistant horses on the national circuit this season by far. It jumped well over a huge track at chester, and has jumped consistantly well in the big classes at the county shows. I do not think Temple Ryefield is a real 1.60 horse, he has jumped well at the last few shows, but he is not consistant, and I think that both soliegette and Promised land are far superior horses. Brickfield Boy is jumping fantastic with Geoff - leading the stairway series and I believe he won a class at hickstead today. Intertoy Z is another good and consistant horse - I would like to see these people being picked at least for the smaller nations cup teams... there seems to be no reason or method behind the current selection for teams. shame.
 
Hi SJFAN, I belive the second round of the stairway series is 1.60 and since Soliegette is currently second in that series I would say 1.60 is not a problem for her.
 
My point about the need for a 2nd string is that all too often horses get mild colic, travel sickness or go lame. It happened for example to Christina Liebherr when No Mercy broke down the other week and sthe Swiss had no option by to have her jump Robin Hood in the NC though he was clealry off-form. Howver I do agree that those discussed are worth sending to the lowser level NCs. However, these are usually self-finded trips and riders/owners are not always willing/able to travel on that basis.
 
The stairways, bar Devon county have all been between 1.50 and 1.55 in the first round - not maximum of 1.50. All have been bigger than the Area Trials. The second round in all of them has been 1.55-1.60. The Cock of the North Class started at 1.50, 2nd round was about 1.55/1.60, 3rd round was 1.60-1.70. The Chester Invitational at the British Masters was 1.55/1.65 in the first round. It is a real shame about this only being allowed to take four horses thing, but in my opinion, if you looked at the statistics of the percentage of horses who travel to shows and then can't compete due to ill health/lameness, it is a relatively small percentage, and a risk much better taken than sending a team of 2nd string horses. On all the lower Nations cups the riders are given £1000/£1500, but to be honest, even if they weren't funded, a lot of these riders, who haven't been picked/are rarely picked would go, for the experience and the chance to jump for Britain.
 
I find it strange though not unknown that course designers breach BSJA rules on heights. Jon Doney did say that they must be built up to the specified height (not over it!). I wasn't able to be at Chester, but I jdon't believe that the 1st round would have been up to 1.65. The height limit in international courses execept of course for Puissance & 6-Bar type is 1.60m
When did the payment of riders start?
 
Tina Fletcher and Promised Land
Vicky Tulloch and Soligette
Geoff Lucket and Brickfield Boy
Tim Stockdale and Corlato
Peter Charles and whoever he feels is best ready.

A mixture of experience and new blood.

And there should be a suitable reserve horse at the ready for Vicky should Soligette become lame / injured etc. cos she won't have another to call on.
 
Well, I'm just going on what the course builders and commentaters have been announcing the heights of these fences are at those shows. Chester was massive - ask anyone who jumped there. It was Gemma Paternoster who said that if some a couple of the uprights in the course at Chester were 1.60 that she had shrunk and that she thought that a couple were 1.65. Doesn't really matter, I think if a horse is making 1.50 look easy, then it will have the ability to jump 1.60. I would agree that they should build the stairway to whatever height the nations cups are abroad, as the whole point of them is to notice people that may be capable of jumping on teams. It's a shame Vicky doesn't have a second horse - I'm not quite sure where they would find a reserve one for her, unless someone extremely generous was willing to give her the ride on one of theirs, but I don't see the problem in letting someone travel out with just the one horse, as long as it got a thorough check over before it went. They all only get to take one horse to the Olympics. And they let Helen Tredwell go when she only had Opportunity B! I think that would be a good team LHS - 2 experienced ones - Tim and Peter, and 3 experienced, but not on nations cups as yet. I think that more people should definately be given a chance to shine... I'm not saying in the superleague, but in the lower ones at least. They are trying out a few new people, but much more effort needs to me made to notice new talent. There is a lot that seems to go unnoticed!
 
Hi LHS, yes I think your team possibly has a bit more experience than mine! but good to see we are agreed on a couple of names there.

And I do agree with you sjstar about giving a few more places to less experienced potentialy good show jumpers on the national teams, and like I said sooner rather than later would be good so that we have a nice pool of horses and riders with international competition experience before they make final selections for London 2012 (I know I keep on about this but I think we should be aiming to be in the medals for show jumping, I think the talent is here waiting to be tapped).

As for Vicky and a second horse, if I won the lottery I think it would be a good investment lol. But I hope there are some owners out there with top level horses that might want to try her out some time.
 
Yes, but that's precisely the point: for the Olympics teams could take a reserve. Even then we were in trouble as Portofino went lame and Peppermill had a problem which meant he could not start in the Team competition - he was evidently fit to jump the second round, but otyher nations objected and thus he could not start at all, so we had only 3 counting scores. Helen did indeed go with just one horse but NOT to a Super League event.
 
As I said before, I'm not talking about superleague, just teams in general. They knew portofino was lame so I dont know why that went to be honest, and I cant blame the other nations for not wanting Peppermill to jump after it had had a day off - advantage much!!! I'm pretty sure we would have complained if things had been the other way around! Seems like a bit of a miracle that it was healed overnight as well! If it was that bad then there would have been no point jumping him on the second day anyway, and if it wasnt that bad then he should have jumped on the firt day and retired had the horse not felt right.
 
I'd just like to think that if I get to top level, and and doing consistantly well on a good horse, I shouldnt have to find 5 more average horses just to ensure me of a team place... it's stupidity!
 
Have you never experienced a really bad muscle spasm which prevented you from doing something, but which cleared up as quickly as it appeared. As far as I know Peppermill was fine for the 1st competition but could hardly walk on the 1st day of the team competition. Believe me, John would not have wanted to benefit from his horse having a "rest day" - it meant that he was out of contention for the Individual Final. Actually I doubt very much whether GB would have objected if the same ill fortune had befallen one of the other nations. Not all of the others did.
I am still waiting for you to tell me when team members for the lesser shows started being paid - certainly news to me. I don't mind asking Jane at the BSJA if this is the case.
 
Good luck with your ambition. I hope the Super League rule restricting nations to 4 riders per event will be revoked. I trust the International Jumping Riders Club will push for it. Still waiting for your answer about when the BSJA starting paying team members for the lesser NCs!
 
It was a couple of people who have been on the teams - you get £1500 travelling expenses... I don't know... just what people have told me! Maybe they are making it up! :S
 
And I think it is slightly naive of you to say that we wouldn't have complained about someone from a different nation being allowed to jump on a fresh horse on a team when everyone elses horses had had to jump the day before. I wish he had been able to jump, but I'm just saying I can see why other people would complain, as the horse would be at an advantage!
 
And feel free to ask Jane about it - I'm curious myself now, as to why people have told me they were given travelling expenses when they weren't.... seems like a stupid thing to lie about!
 
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Have you never experienced a really bad muscle spasm which prevented you from doing something, but which cleared up as quickly as it appeared.

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Can you tell me more about this? not been riding long and did not realise that things like this happened to horses, is it common? kind of sounds odd? is it like cramp?
 
A common problem (though I don't think tit was necessarily what Peppermill had) ia azoturia. Copied this from Equine World: Azoturia is a condition in horses that is usually, but not always, associated with exercise and is also known as "Monday morning disease", "Tying Up" and "Equine Rhabdomyolysis Syndrome".

Azoturia can develop rapidly and most often occurs when a horse in hard work is given a rest day without having its working diet reduced.

It was previously thought that Azoturia occurred due to increased lactic acid levels leading to muscle fatigue and cramps, but more recently it has been concluded that Azoturia is due to a metabolic abnormality in muscle cells resulting in some horses having an underlying susceptibility to the condition which can be triggered by one or more exercise related factors.

Mares coming into heat may also be prone to Azoturia.

Symptoms Of Azoturia
As Azoturia develops the muscles of the horse over the loins and quarters harden resulting in cramps and muscular stiffness when exercised. The horse's stride becomes shorter, it staggers behind and then goes lame and may collapse if work is continued. The horse has a high temperature and sweating may be evident. Examination of the hindquarters will show stiffening. In severe cases the myogolobin released from the damaged muscles turns the urine dark red.

Treatment Of Azoturia
The horse should be dismounted and made to rest where it is and veterinary advice should be sought immediately.

Treatment for Azoturia may consist of a laxative diet, anti-inflammatories, a sedative, muscle relaxers and massage of the affected muscles. A low energy diet should be fed and the horse may also require a few days rest.

Prevention Of Azoturia
Regular exercise with warming up and cooling down periods together with only the necessary amount of feed and reduction of feed on rest days will help to prevent Azoturia.
 
I dont know about expenses but I know they get hotels paid for.
Going back to original question I think Scott is one of the most talented younger riders we have and he should definately be on a team. And as much as I like gemma Plumley the fact that she jumped on a Super league team in Aachen instead of any of the riders and horses first listed is crazy when u compare their form.
 
I am afraid SJFAN I have been told the same story regarding NC Teams & payment & from many sources. £2000.00 was actually quoted to me. The conversation then continued along the lines of top riders actually tell the powers that be which shows they want to go to (as a group). Then the group share on transport & drivers etc & actually come away from the show doing very nicely thank you even if they do not win any prize money. I have never actually pursued or questioned this with the BSJA but I have a feeling it is probably common knowledge, but not advertised!
grin.gif
 
Makes a change that they have finally chosen Scott - he is totally overlooked - as are many North of Birmingham! Good luck, I hope he does well... unsure about a couple of the others on the team though! :S
 
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It would indeed be stupid, and I hope you're right and that there are now funds to help with expenses. I'll ask her next week.

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Did you ever get round to asking Jane? was kind of wondering about this, if the BSJA did not pay expensis then how coule people afford to compeat? would make sence that if they are being chosen by the BSJA that they would get some finacial support to compeat. Or have I some how missed the point?
 
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