Show Jumping Tech help.... Front legs!

[Kizi_Wizz]

Hello i need some help!

My horse show jumps bsja up to newcomers. She is 12 years old now so has been around the block. I have always done alot of grid work with her and has proper training ect (so schooling wise shes not just he hurled at fences over and over). She is very clean behind, shes only ever had 2 fences in her life with me with her back legs. She has a good jump on her and has schooled over 1.40 at home before.

Now this is the problem - THE FRONT LEGS !! The reason we have never gone past newcomers in comp is because she is so lazy with the front legs. Over BN and Disco heights she will go clear because she can easily over jump that size and dangle her legs down.

Once we get to newcomers (1.10 and up) she will try to over jump and dangle and of course at this height over a long course she starts to have poles.

She is very honest and an angel in all ways but we are having an issue where a few short grids used to sort it out, we have now had a whole summer of only only once placing and that was as the fasted 4 faulter! grr So im getting bit grumpy about it.

She goes very well on the flat, theres nothing wrong with her health wise i have had everything checked that i possibly can and shes be given the all clear.
I have taken her XC to let her have some fun and though feeling the soild fences may make her respect them more.

My instructor says more tight grids.... but they are not really doing the bizz.
Her tech over a fence is very good bar the front legs... shes makes a lovely shape but will over jump rather than curl her legs up.
I know they do magic boots for the back legs... i dont know if they make anything similar for the fronts.. i would rather not have to used things like that but i dont mind being poor from competing but being poor and having 4-12 faults every weekend is getting old really quickly.

Do you guys have any ideas for a gee gee who will not pick up !!!

(sorry about the rant! I neeeedd help!!! lol)

 

[wench]

no boots!

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

I may give that a go!
She wears open fronted tendon boots normally.

Im sure she must have had her nerves removed cos she really doesnt care how many poles she wacks! grrr!

 

[connie1288]

Is she really hitting them or just tapping them out?

 

[stencilface]

What poles do you practise with? If you can get hold of a wooden hexagonal or square pole they can be handy. Horses remember hitting them! (I'm not mean really!)

Have you also tried putting the poles up on an upright like this / \ and they jump through the middle? Meant to help them snap up a bit more

 

[OneInAMillion]

you can buy sets of weighted front and back boots which sounds like it may help her

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

really just tapping them.

On the occasion she had really had a cracker in the warm up i have taken her in the ring straight of that and she didnt touch a thing.
So i think shes just being lazy and knows that keep dropping them doesnt hurt so no point in trying to be clean in front!

i have watched vids and shes just rolling them off with her dangling toes!!!

 

[Supanova]

Kizi-Wizz I can totally understand your frustration. There is nothing worse than doing great rounds but constantly getting four faults. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I would do lots of short grids, bounces and v poles which really make them pick up. How is her canter? Is it back on her hocks enough. I thought my horse was a bit careless infront until a professional showjumper told me that it was because my horse wasn't back on hocks enough and therefore didn't have time to lift front end. Also, have you checked your own position that you are not folding too quickly infront of fence and therefore putting weight on her shoulders?

It is frustrating but I have been told that a careless front end is easier to fix than a careless backend so at least you have got the best end to work on!!

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

[ QUOTE ]
What poles do you practise with? If you can get hold of a wooden hexagonal or square pole they can be handy. Horses remember hitting them! (I'm not mean really!)

Have you also tried putting the poles up on an upright like this / \ and they jump through the middle? Meant to help them snap up a bit more

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i reg jump her through V poles and that works at home.

i havnt tryed the square poles route... may give it a go.

I have used the aluminum pole trick (placing a thin aluminum pole a few inches above the normal pole to make a loud ping when they hit it), didnt really work! MY old jump coach was very cross and chucked his hat as us! lol that made her jump clean! lol

 

[connie1288]

Ah ok, if she was booting them out I was going to suggest vet check. Even so does it make any difference if on a surface or grass?
My mare has never been a good jumper but went from one down to 5 down, it was found her feet hurt (low heels and coffin joint issues) she is now back to where she was.
We tried everything before the vet, weighted boots (behind never seen them used in front) v poles, square poles, short grids, non of it worked and some made her worse!

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

[ QUOTE ]
Kizi-Wizz I can totally understand your frustration. There is nothing worse than doing great rounds but constantly getting four faults. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I would do lots of short grids, bounces and v poles which really make them pick up. How is her canter? Is it back on her hocks enough. I thought my horse was a bit careless infront until a professional showjumper told me that it was because my horse wasn't back on hocks enough and therefore didn't have time to lift front end. Also, have you checked your own position that you are not folding too quickly infront of fence and therefore putting weight on her shoulders?

It is frustrating but I have been told that a careless front end is easier to fix than a careless backend so at least you have got the best end to work on!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much, im hoping it will be easy to fix.

I have been working on my position over a fence, i havnt really had many probs with that. although of late due to desperation to get that great lump over a fence clear i could have been a bit to forward so that on my list to sort out! lol Its a reallllyyy long list! ha

I have changed her bit because she has a good canter normally but i left her bit was alittle too strong and that was causing her to back off and get on her head a bit no matter how i rode it. im hoping her new bit wont make her feel so restricted and will allow her to move forward more and canter from her bottom more as she does at home in her snaffle on the flat.

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

well no i doesnt seem to make a diffrence really, only on grass she tends to get a bit quicker so if im not on the ball we get flatter etc, but i think thats pretty normal on grass isnt it?

she has had 3 diffrent types of back/bone/muscle people look at her, all say shes super dooper. Shes had her legs looked at, the farrier gave me this op on her feet and legs.

I am prob only going to jump twice more on grass and then it will be indoor again , so i thought i would see how that went, as shes due for jabs in dec so that would give me a month or two indoors and i could ask the vet then. she doesnt seem in any pain , but im not a vet.

 

[little_flea]

Planks positioned the wrong way around (ie the thin side at the front, and the wide side up, if you know what I mean) could be worth a try.

 

[TableDancer]

Tbh, it's really difficult if they don't snap up naturally in front

IME V poles work ok when they are there, but don't seem to help much when they aren't, if you see what I mean. The only other exercise I'd add is jumping from walk - this can help them as they have more time to lift in front, and have to work very hard. Kerilli's done several threads on this explaining the exact technique so do a search... I have to say, it only helps some though, if they are really uncoordinated or couldn't care less there's not a whole lot you can do

It then comes down to either resigning yourself to 90/1m Am classes forever, or considering selling her as a schoolmistress to someone who just wants to do those sorts of heights (there are plenty out there) and buying a baby with better natural technique.

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

hmm yes its such a shame. shes the perfect horse in every way bar the silly front legs.

shes never going to be the most talented horse in the world, but shes prob one of the most honest and has a lovely nature. I would prob have a foal out of her rather than sell her as her front leg action is the only blip on her card.

Most of my jumping friends use what we call "magic" back boots. I havnt ever had to use them on any of mine as all my horses have been very clean (apart from said moo), now i dont want to ask them as i will appear a wolly (ha) but do they do similar things for the front? I thought maybe using that sort of thing once or twice here and there may just tune her up a bit...
please excuse im ignorance if thats not the way they work, but having never had to use them its not an area of show jump "training" i have ever ventured into or have any realy understanding of how they work.

 

[flyingfeet]

With my boy that dangled the only solution was dressage - we won more money at 6 months of unaffiliated dressage comps than through an entire BSJA season.

Some horses don't have good natural action, and I think at 12 you are probably too late to fundamentally change their jumping style.

 

[TableDancer]

If you mean ones like the Devoucoux ones then no I don't think they'd be any use at all in front. THey work by sort of getting the horse to sort of "extend" its back legs and lift them a bit higher over the fence. THe front leg action is obviously completely different, you need them to tuck up more tightly - basically the opposite. You could TRY weighted boots at home but I wouldn't be too optimisitic, sorry.

 

[Kenzo]

Jump planks for while rather than poles, they soon pick up then if its just a case of lazyness.

 

[Vix1978]

One of mine is not naturally quick with the front end. When jumping at home, every fence has a V frame on. Also, I don't build my fences with ground lines to encourage the horse to look at the top of the fence. Build oxers with poles placed diagonally (and horizontally) over the front and back rail.
Good luck - the above work has improved my horses front end no end - just seem to have lost the back end now!!

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

tabledancer- thanks very much , i didnt want to look like a total wolly in front of all the showjumping kids! lol I also didnt think weighted boots would work really.

Cotsworldsj- lol i had thought of this. She didnt really do anything untill i bought her 3 years ago.. took a year to get her head out of the sky and get her stronger. I mean what she was like to how she is now is really quite amazing when i look back.

If all my tinkering doesnt work i mean i think it maybe a cause of just getting her fitter so she will jump a NC in her sloppy tech. IF shes fitter i suppose her over jumping will come easier over a long course! lol
I have come to terms with the fact that she wouldnt jump a foxhunter (she would get round but not with out too many faults than im willing to get!).
Id just like to get her going round a nc better. grr lol

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

[ QUOTE ]
One of mine is not naturally quick with the front end. When jumping at home, every fence has a V frame on. Also, I don't build my fences with ground lines to encourage the horse to look at the top of the fence. Build oxers with poles placed diagonally (and horizontally) over the front and back rail.
Good luck - the above work has improved my horses front end no end - just seem to have lost the back end now!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah thank you i will give that a go!

Well how about we swap my horses back end from your fixed front end!! lol

god my poor horse has a long list of schooling methods to work her way through! lol

 

[seabiscuit]

Can you put up a video then we can see what is going on?

 

[kerilli]

i'd try: jumping from walk, as mentioned above. for some it does give them a real lightbulb moment, they have no choice but to really use themselves and because they're going so slowly they really have time to think. there is a bit of an art to it though, i was lucky to be taught it by someone v experienced and he had to bellow his head off at me repeatedly in a few sessions before i got the idea (slow learner obv). it can be quite nerve-wracking until you've done it a few times and realised that they really can use themselves and clear a pretty big fence from a single stride of walk. have a look at mule jumping from a walk or standstill on youtube to really see how they can jump!
i put a vid of me jumping Katy from walk (ish) on youtube (titled 'jumping from walk') but she's a rubbish model as she accelerated even in 1 stride from a standstill, you really want a calm walk to the base of the fence but she wasn't having any of that. it does at least show how much you have to fold and give in midair though, this is crucial because you can get caught out, and the last thing you want to do it punish them by catching them in the mouth and making them invert etc.
very high X poles can also work wonders, 10' or 12' heavy wooden poles at the very top of 5' or 6' uprights, other end of pole touching other wing, so a high narrow X, either high or low in the cups depending on how much you want it to resist a tap. whether the penny will drop enough to make a consistent difference with a mature horse, i don't know, i've only used it to improve/shock dangly youngsters!
hope that helps a bit.
btw, the only other thing i'd suggest is trying a totally different saddle to see whether she will open and lift more in that, just a thought.

 

[Starman]

I would also agree with jumping from walk, no front boots and high cross poles using heavy poles. Integrate these into a grid too. Also jump them off a tight angle, jump off style, so she has to snatch her front legs up to make it over.

Have you done cross country with her? Is she more careful over solid jumps? It might be something to try. Take her hunting and once she clips a couple of fences she'll soon sharp learn.

 

[KatB]

What happens when you get her really deep? I would try a grid of 4 square oxers, starting with 7and a half yards inbetween, and then slowly increasing the width of the oxers so thee is less space between the fences (if that makes sense?!) if need be, put a pole diagonally agross the top of each oxer too if she is still tapping them out. It makes then really sit behind, and snap infront as they will get deeper as the distance between the fences decreases

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

update!

well this week she has been to edenbridge and oxted and has 2 poles in both classes (one was clearly my fault, poor line) , then on wed i took her xc schooling, it was her first time ever! and she loved it , she touched one solid fence and didnt touch anything after that!!! I think it really did her good.

yesterday she went team showjumping... it was on a surface and she really jumped! and she was very forward, alittle too forward lol. she had the same skinny fence down both round and it was totally my fault as i missed my line! grr, im an idiot! BIG improvement... im thinking that the cobo of the soild fences and the surface and NO BOOTS made a big dif.

and today she did Team Dressage (shes only done one prelim in her whole life) and was put in the novice class due to numbers etc.
SHE CAME 2ND WITH 73.75%.... im amazed! she went so well!

so i think i will be trying your tips and not wearing boots to jump...
I will also be having a go at some more dressage, seems we arnt as awful as i thought! lol

 

[Kizi_Wizz]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you put up a video then we can see what is going on?

[/ QUOTE ]

My mum came to video her on monday and managed to get 2 round of the grass and her feet!!!

i have some photos that i could post that give you an idea of her tech??


OH and also if she gets in very deep she will scramble her way over but it likely to drag a pole with her fronts. She very rarely stops at anything.