Showing classes and gag bits - what are the rules?

[mustardsmum]

So, took my daughter to a small riding club show today. We entered two showing classes and in one the second placed horse was being ridden in a grackle, martingale and three ring gag (on second ring). class was for a Riding club horse. Next class, Mountain and moorland.... Same horse, same attire, placed first? I queried this with the judge, not because I was bothered that we hadn't been placed first, but because said horse had so much gear on! I just don't understand - is it now acceptable to ride in these sorts of showing classes with gags, grackles etc? The judge really didn't seem to understand my question, and said the horse was halfway through a working hunter class so it was acceptable for the horse to be ridden in a martingale/gag/grackle, as he then had to return to the working hunter class. Is this bad judging, or just that standards have changed? I am not a sore looser - our pony didn't perform for us today but there were others in the class who did perform and had the correct tack.

 

[DD265]

I'm not a judge but based on what I know: personally I'd be looking to "dock points" from a horse with all that gear on even in a workers class. But it may still have been the best in the class and deserving of the win. It also depends on the standard at the show as to whether it's worth making a song and dance over; locally we have some shows that have a lot of novices or people just out to gain experience, and then we have other shows where the standard is very high.

 

[cauda equina]

At the RC I used to belong to, the schedule specified that for RC horse classes snaffles and no martingales were obligatory.
Unfortunately, judges and ring stewards often seemed unaware of this, so pretty much anything went

 

[Pinkvboots]

It's not really correct to do a showing class in all that but unfortunately some of the judging I have seen this year has been shocking to say the least, it just seems nowadays anything goes and the judges are just clueless with much of it. not the same thing but I had an interesting time a few weeks back.

I did a ridden class my horse was foot perfect well behaved so I was a bit shocked to be put second from last, in front of me was a horse in martingale most of the horses didn't even go forward one even looked lame, a few of them did some major spooks she moved one woman down as her horse barely moved in her individual show but she was still before me, when she gave me my rosette judge said no reason your down this end apart from your horse is older than the others, his 11 and only done 3 ridden shows in his life try and work that one out!

 

[eggs]

Years ago I got a lower placing at a riding club show and the judge explained that although my horse did a lovely individual show he was older than ones that she had placed higher. Must be a relation of the judge that Pinkvboots had.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Years ago I got a lower placing at a riding club show and the judge explained that although my horse did a lovely individual show he was older than ones that she had placed higher. Must be a relation of the judge that Pinkvboots had.

ha ha must have been surely a judge should ask what the horse has done some are backed late some are never shown until there older, you can't judge a horse solely on its age.

 

[WelshD]

No its not correct for some classes however at a local show where the entrants may not get out to many in a year the judge is treading a fine line between what is normally seen as correct and dealing with people who need to be encouraged and who are trying to take advantage of the various classes on offer

I dont expect thats particularly easy, Its not ideal and I would be the first to raise an eyebrow but its one of the hazards of local showing

 

[mustardsmum]

Years ago I got a lower placing at a riding club show and the judge explained that although my horse did a lovely individual show he was older than ones that she had placed higher. Must be a relation of the judge that Pinkvboots had.

And possibly related to our judge too!!

 

[mustardsmum]

I'm not a judge but based on what I know: personally I'd be looking to "dock points" from a horse with all that gear on even in a workers class. But it may still have been the best in the class and deserving of the win. It also depends on the standard at the show as to whether it's worth making a song and dance over; locally we have some shows that have a lot of novices or people just out to gain experience, and then we have other shows where the standard is very high.

TBF the horse did a lovely show - but then so did others with the correct tack which I think is really my point. I don't feel aggrieved that we weren't placed, we simply were not as good and that's fine. The standard was pretty high - there were some very nice horses in the class which were shown in correct turnout. I wouldn't say any in the class were novices. However, surely at local level the judges should apply the same rules as at any other level - isn't that the point? If you have a horse who can produce a nice show in a snaffle bridle, shouldn't that be a positive over a horse that is in a gag? I am all for people being encouraged to participate but really, why bother having turnout rules if they don't mean anything?

 

[be positive]

There are no real rules about tack at local level or even at the highest level, there may be a few such as snaffles for novice classes but most of what is seen to be a rule is more about tradition, correct standards of schooling and turnout than anything else, tack is not a major consideration in working hunter classes, if the horse goes correctly in the set up that is the main thing and the tack you describe is fairly standard at all levels in workers.

I personally don't like dutch gags and rarely see anything going correctly in them so am likely to put a horse down the line but if it did go well, had correct conformation, moved freely and was of the right type for the class then it may well be placed above something appearing from the ringside to go nicely that had a conformation flaw, moved incorrectly or was not what I considered t be of the right type to be placed higher, turnout is a very tiny part of the whole picture, the bridle a small percentage of that and at the end of the day it is the judges opinion as to what they prefer on the day, this judge obviously liked this horse more than they liked the others, another day another judge may look at it totally differently.

 

[mustardsmum]

There are no real rules about tack at local level or even at the highest level, there may be a few such as snaffles for novice classes but most of what is seen to be a rule is more about tradition, correct standards of schooling and turnout than anything else, tack is not a major consideration in working hunter classes, if the horse goes correctly in the set up that is the main thing and the tack you describe is fairly standard at all levels in workers.

I personally don't like dutch gags and rarely see anything going correctly in them so am likely to put a horse down the line but if it did go well, had correct conformation, moved freely and was of the right type for the class then it may well be placed above something appearing from the ringside to go nicely that had a conformation flaw, moved incorrectly or was not what I considered t be of the right type to be placed higher, turnout is a very tiny part of the whole picture, the bridle a small percentage of that and at the end of the day it is the judges opinion as to what they prefer on the day, this judge obviously liked this horse more than they liked the others, another day another judge may look at it totally differently.

That's very interesting! I'd always assumed that correct tack was rules, not tradition - it might save me swapping bridles like a mad woman at events as I worried about my daughter showing in a bevel as I have been told that is a gag!

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this!

 

[ester]

It's not correct but if the horse was halfway through a WH class (ie had jumped and waiting to go back in- though it seems a bit odd to manage 2 classes in that time?!) that would explain it and they had obviously spoken to the judge as to whether it was ok to be judged like that or not and judge had, as it was a local show, accepted that they would do that.

Unless it is a novice class and snaffles only then given that pelhams and doubles will be most frequently used I don't think a gag is so far away from that or an indication that the horse lacks any manners.



A bevel/wilkie is a gag, which is why they are not BD permitted.

 

[conniegirl]

A bevel/wilkie is a gag, which is why they are not BD permitted.

but perfectly acceptable in the show ring

 

[ester]

Oh yes, I never said they weren't! Just the OP exclaimed she had been told they were a gag- they are, she was told right. Although I did used to ban them from the snaffle only classes at our RC show

 

[stormox]

It is perfectly acceptable to ride the jumping phase of a WH in gags, grackle etc, and if classes clashed, rather than have the competitor hold the class (and therefore the show) up - which would probably have resulted in a lot of complaints, the judge, rightly IMO, decided to judge the horse in its WH tack. After all, she was judging the horse, not the leatherwork!

 

[maesmynatchmidnight]

Unfortunately, I think the grackle/gag combo has become a bit of a fashion statement recently...

 

[KautoStar1]

It is perfectly acceptable to ride the jumping phase of a WH in gags, grackle etc, and if classes clashed, rather than have the competitor hold the class (and therefore the show) up - which would probably have resulted in a lot of complaints, the judge, rightly IMO, decided to judge the horse in its WH tack. After all, she was judging the horse, not the leatherwork!

But if the class clashed, then the competitor has to decide which class to participate in. Correct turn out is important and its not acceptable to ride a flat class in a gag and grackle. 'correct' turn out for flat classes is snaffle, double or Pelham.
The judges should not be making exceptions just to allow a competitor to compete and not hold up the class. Either tack correctly for the class you want to compete in or forfeit the class.

WH classes seem to have become a law unto themselves these days, but what's now acceptable for workers is not acceptable for flat classes.

 

[ester]

I imagine this was a local show, where people joining in and paying for more classes is the aim of the game. Also where many people won't have the correct 'kit' either but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to join in.

 

[Crackerz]

But if the class clashed, then the competitor has to decide which class to participate in. Correct turn out is important and its not acceptable to ride a flat class in a gag and grackle. 'correct' turn out for flat classes is snaffle, double or Pelham.
The judges should not be making exceptions just to allow a competitor to compete and not hold up the class. Either tack correctly for the class you want to compete in or forfeit the class.

WH classes seem to have become a law unto themselves these days, but what's now acceptable for workers is not acceptable for flat classes.

I agree.... That's exactly what i did as a child & teen at local shows, if something clashed, i had to chose which one i preferred to do. Mum would never have let me in a class with the wrong bridle or jacket on if i didn't have time to change...

 

[KautoStar1]

I imagine this was a local show, where people joining in and paying for more classes is the aim of the game. Also where many people won't have the correct 'kit' either but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to join in.

Yes I do get that to a point. But its not expensive to buy a Pelham or snaffle and a plain noseband and swap them over. Then all competitors can be judged equally and correctly. Sometimes people have to learn that they need to make choices in order to compete and that its not always a free for all. Pony Club and Riding Clubs should be there to uphold standards and guide competitors in what's appropriate or not. Whatever next, draw reins in showing classes ?

I don't like the use of bevel bits on ponies or as the bradoon part of a double, but that's a whole new topic.....

 

[conniegirl]

Kuato, when was the last time you went to a RC show? Or helped organise one?
Most of them are run on a shoe string budget and eveey single entry is important to the future of the club, often one show with bad entries can destroy a show. So yes they will hold classes and they will allow incorrect tack to encourage more entries, because if people have to choose between classes you can bet that at the next show they wont enter both classes Multiply this by 10 at one show and it is a conciderable amount of money each show is losing!

 

[KautoStar1]

Not for a long time Conniegirl. And I hear what you are saying about little local shows trying to make money to stay afloat. BUT how are competitors supposed to learn what is correct and acceptable if all classes become a free for all. Nobody is saying people can’t enter multiple classes, but they should to learn to dress appropriately for each class so that all competitors compete on an equal footing and can be judged accordingly and things like bits and nose bands have far more direct effect on a horse or ponies way of going than say a show saddle vs. a dressage saddle (assuming they are correctly fitted of course !)

Basically if someone rocks up with their grackle and gag bit to have a quick spin round in the flat class while they are waiting to do the second part of their WH class and they can’t be bothered to change their tack to be equal to the rest of the class, then they are potentially coming into a class with an advantage – if you class a gag and grackle as an advantage – and that’s not fair on the rest of the class who have taken the time to bit correctly.
Its not just about taking part, its about making sure its fair for all too.

 

[teddypops]

I think it depends on the judge, I have been at a show when a girl came into the veteran class from her SJ class and the judge asked her to leave as she was not turned out correctly for showing but with a different judge at same show a month later, tack wasn't considered. I think no matter how low level the show is, you should be turned out correctly.

 

[ester]

Because the judge will still mention it to them kauto.

and I am still not sure a gag bit is any stronger than a double, as I ride mine in both (not at the same time )

 

[WelshD]

Basically if someone rocks up with their grackle and gag bit to have a quick spin round in the flat class while they are waiting to do the second part of their WH class and they can’t be bothered to change their tack to be equal to the rest of the class, then they are potentially coming into a class with an advantage – if you class a gag and grackle as an advantage – and that’s not fair on the rest of the class who have taken the time to bit correctly.

There are many judges that would put them down the line for the bit regardless of what classes they are rushing to or from so it is a risk and not necessarily an advantage. Some judges are sticklers for turnout even if its the smallest show they have ever judged at

 

[KautoStar1]

There are many judges that would put them down the line for the bit regardless of what classes they are rushing to or from so it is a risk and not necessarily an advantage. Some judges are sticklers for turnout even if its the smallest show they have ever judged at

delayed reply, sorry.
I'm sure you are right about some judges demoting horses for the wrong tack. Personally I think its best done by not allowing the competitor into the class in the first instance. You are sort of giving with one hand and then taking with the other if you let them in and then place the last because of their tack.
The alternative is for shows to be much clearer on their tack and turn out requirements, So if they are going to run classes as an any tack is acceptable then make it clear which bits, nosebands etc are allowed and then individuals can choose. Its not fair on those who dress appropriately for their class but I suppose equally its not fair to take someones money and not give them clear guidelines and then demote them for being in the wrong.

I do appreciate local shows are a lot about being able to take part. But some of that taking part also needs to be on the understanding there are some 'rules'. Pony Club and Riding Clubs should be looking to ensure people have fun of course, but they should be responsible for raising standards in riding and horse care.

 

[KautoStar1]

Because the judge will still mention it to them kauto.

and I am still not sure a gag bit is any stronger than a double, as I ride mine in both (not at the same time )

I don't know Ester, I think people struggle to get feedback from what I hear and in my limited experience of riding club shows, this is because the judge themselves don't know. I'm not tarnishing all local judges with the same brush, but....

As for the bits, well I know what you mean, and its a sad reflection that so many kids are now riding in gags and spurs and all sorts of other contraptions. When I was a kid, you rode in a snaffle or a Pelham for showing and that was about it.

 

[conniegirl]

Sorry but at local shows if you didnt let competitors in the ring with the wrong tack then you would likely lose 3/4 of your classes and the club would quickly get a reputation for being snobby and unwelcoming, as soon as that happens you may as well kiss goodbye to the riding club.

Also a lot of societies do not have bitting rules anyway, some that do say any suitable bridle.
As locals tend to be unaffiliated and certainly dont put bitting rules in thier schedule the competitors havnt actually broken any rule.

It is traditional, it is convention but in most cases not a rule, hence why a driving bit that looks like a pelham became so popular a while ago

 

[Luci07]

Things have changed then. I remember stewarding around 10 years ago and it was my job to ensure said horse entered the ring with the correct turnout, though it more often than not meant removing brushing boots or a martingale before a ridden flat class! It was seen as a way of helping the riders as well.

 

[Nappy Croc]

People also seem to forget over 1/2 the marks should come from the conformation of the animal.