Showing scandal linked to Yogi
- Thread starter harkback
- Start date
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Seems a bit tame compared to some I have read!!!!
(See the Pam Edgington story is on there...pensioner asked to leave with her display team puppy because it was 'unsound', ie 'loose' - same pensioner puts her dogs through the AD test, 20km ride off a bike, bet this puppy eventually passes....)
(See the Pam Edgington story is on there...pensioner asked to leave with her display team puppy because it was 'unsound', ie 'loose' - same pensioner puts her dogs through the AD test, 20km ride off a bike, bet this puppy eventually passes....)
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
If he really did threaten the judge a year ban seems very short. A couple of handlers were banned for a heck of a lot longer than that in GSDs a few years back, and they didn't threaten a judge. He does sound like a poor loser to put it mildly, mind you must have been a shock to only get the Res ticket, good for the judge if she didn't think he was the best on the day why should he win.
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Mumsie had a third place card torn up and thrown at her feet 
by a man who I discovered last week is dead and buried.....
by a man who I discovered last week is dead and buried.....
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
meh, she's a witch and most likely provoked it although I don't advocate his behaviour either. It's hardly breaking news, what a load of old tripe!
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
at her very first appointment at that level?!
As I said, I think they were both in the wrong.
harkback
Well-Known Member
at her very first appointment at that level?!
As I said, I think they were both in the wrong.
The judge wrong for daring to give Yogi only the RCC?
harkback
Well-Known Member
Mumsie had a third place card torn up and thrown at her feet
Normal behaviour across breeds. Many do not even bother to collect their RCC's, just tear them up and stuff them in the bin without taking them back for the judge to sign.
harkback
Well-Known Member
There was more to the reason she was asked to leave than reported on DW.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Yes I have seen this a fair few times in our breed, there is one breeder who does it regularly!
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
No thats not what I mean. It's not as clear cut as whether or not he deserved the ticket that day.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Hmm, I do know some judges who like to be controversial just for the sake of it, maybe this was the case here?
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Possibly MM, she is quite a controversial person! 
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
Urgh this new board has a slow edit time!!
Having said that he was not looking his best around that time, presumably due to all the stud work.
What I'm really saying is I think it's a classic example of six of one and half a dozen of the other. I don't believe for one minute that she didn't say or do something to provoke an 'incident'. I don't reckon all she did to anger Moray was not give him the ticket if you see what I mean. I could be entirely wrong but I doubt it
Having said that he was not looking his best around that time, presumably due to all the stud work.
What I'm really saying is I think it's a classic example of six of one and half a dozen of the other. I don't believe for one minute that she didn't say or do something to provoke an 'incident'. I don't reckon all she did to anger Moray was not give him the ticket if you see what I mean. I could be entirely wrong but I doubt it
UnaB
Well-Known Member
Well, i know this guy as my dogs breeder is good friends with Yogi's connections, and i have only ever seen him being very friendly and polite, im shocked to read this.
Saying that though, dog showing is a judged hobby and part of that means that you have to accept the judges opinion and take your awards (or lack of) gracefully and with good sportsmanship. Im sure all of us who show, whether horses or dogs, have ended up with placings we didnt think were what we deserved, but if you cant just accept the judges opinion and be gracious then i think you need to have a serious re-think about why you are doing it in the first place. Clearly the enjoyment of themselves and the dog at the show have taken a backseat to winning lots of awards.
Saying that though, dog showing is a judged hobby and part of that means that you have to accept the judges opinion and take your awards (or lack of) gracefully and with good sportsmanship. Im sure all of us who show, whether horses or dogs, have ended up with placings we didnt think were what we deserved, but if you cant just accept the judges opinion and be gracious then i think you need to have a serious re-think about why you are doing it in the first place. Clearly the enjoyment of themselves and the dog at the show have taken a backseat to winning lots of awards.
harkback
Well-Known Member
UnaB
Well-Known Member
It is terrible that people think they have the right to criticise a persons judging - you can think it, but thats as far as it should go. I would be horrified and quite offended if someone verbally abused and threatened me after i judged their dogs... Especially if i'd given them a RCC!!
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
I've had verbal after judging a MATCH!!!
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Wooooo big scandal - is this the best the dog showing world can come up with LOL
Sure it would seem that this man does not admit defeat gracefully, but quite honestly I have seen that loads of times in any competing situation, whether it be dogs, horses or human sporting occasions
And as for tearing up RCC's - OMG this happens in CKCS too - shock horror
I think the tearing up bit is a fit of pique but in all honestly exhibitors change as they get more successful - I remember when I was small a RCC was framed and displayed proudly at home, now it is only KC 'confirmation of champion status' certificates which are displayed if anything is
Sure it would seem that this man does not admit defeat gracefully, but quite honestly I have seen that loads of times in any competing situation, whether it be dogs, horses or human sporting occasions
And as for tearing up RCC's - OMG this happens in CKCS too
- shock horror I think the tearing up bit is a fit of pique but in all honestly exhibitors change as they get more successful - I remember when I was small a RCC was framed and displayed proudly at home, now it is only KC 'confirmation of champion status' certificates which are displayed if anything is
UnaB
Well-Known Member
Wooooo big scandal - is this the best the dog showing world can come up with LOL
Sure it would seem that this man does not admit defeat gracefully, but quite honestly I have seen that loads of times in any competing situation, whether it be dogs, horses or human sporting occasions
And as for tearing up RCC's - OMG this happens in CKCS too
I think the tearing up bit is a fit of pique but in all honestly exhibitors change as they get more successful - I remember when I was small a RCC was framed and displayed proudly at home, now it is only KC 'confirmation of champion status' certificates which are displayed if anything is
I think its considered a "scandal" because its come out days after his dog winning BIS at Crufts. Otherwise it would just be another ungrateful exhibitor, but with him being so well known in the dog world its considered more of a scandal
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Which just shows how BIS at Crufts continues to be hyped out of all proportion.... I expect we will be reading about this in OK magazine or the Daily Mail soon...
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
We still have our RCC from Dr Willis framed. She would have got the ticket if she had been older (she was in Junior) and hadn't been a porker, oops!
By the by, I have seen the full list of achievements of the GSD BoB slagged off by Clare Balding and it is a sight to behold. I believe his owner and breeder is going to take the matter further, good for her.
By the by, I have seen the full list of achievements of the GSD BoB slagged off by Clare Balding and it is a sight to behold. I believe his owner and breeder is going to take the matter further, good for her.
UnaB
Well-Known Member
BIS at Crufts is an amazing achievement, the highest point you can ever reach in dog showing. It is the biggest, most famous dog show in the world bringing in the greatest dogs in the world. I dont think BIS is hyped out of proportion at all.
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Personally I think that BIS at the parent club CH show is a higher achievement than BIS at Crufts - it shows your dog is the best example of the absolute best of that particular breed, if you see what I mean? And the judge will be a specialist in your breed, not an all rounder.
To use a comparison, you can get a fantastic score for dressage under an eventing dressage judge, but it would mean so much more to get a fantastic score under a dressage judge who specialises in that discipline?
Just MHO though, obviously most people disagree as they keep entering
To use a comparison, you can get a fantastic score for dressage under an eventing dressage judge, but it would mean so much more to get a fantastic score under a dressage judge who specialises in that discipline?
Just MHO though, obviously most people disagree as they keep entering
UnaB
Well-Known Member
Personally I think that BIS at the parent club CH show is a higher achievement than BIS at Crufts - it shows your dog is the best example of the absolute best of that particular breed, if you see what I mean? And the judge will be a specialist in your breed, not an all rounder.
To use a comparison, you can get a fantastic score for dressage under an eventing dressage judge, but it would mean so much more to get a fantastic score under a dressage judge who specialises in that discipline?
Just MHO though, obviously most people disagree as they keep entering
But your dog is only being proven as the best against its own breed like you say. To be proven against your own breed (by a judge who has the qualifications to judge the breed at that level as they must have), to then be judged the best of your group and to top it all, to be judged the best of ALL the groups - that is a much better achievement IMO. Not to mention, you tend to get the top overseas dogs at Crufts which you dont generally at club champ shows.
Its just my opinion, but BIS at an all breeds champ show is an amazing achievement and shows your dog can hold its own not just against its own breed, but against others too. BIS at the worlds greatest dog show would be the pinnacle to any dogs show career
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
I can see your point of view completely, but I have a jaundiced view of all rounders (and yes, I know they have to be qualified to judge a breed) simply from having seen them operate over the past twenty years In CKCS at least an all rounder will definitely put up a different sort of dog to that which a breed specialist would choose - top winning dogs tend to get put up, exhibitors the all rounder knows will get put up, that kind of thing? It isnt sour grapes BTW, as it works in favour of people I know well 
It is the same when you get to group level, I knew that the gundog group winner would have a very good chance at Crufts as the BIS judge was a gundog person - I do not dispute in the least that Yogi is (to me anyway) a lovely example of a Vizsla (as far as my limited knowledge goes that is!) but judges will tend to pick their 'own' breeds in a group/BIS situation?
BTW I hope I am not coming across being too horrible about this (no blushing smiley any more?) I just like to have a bit of a debate about dog showing - no offence intended, so I apologise if any has been taken by anyone
In CKCS at least an all rounder will definitely put up a different sort of dog to that which a breed specialist would choose - top winning dogs tend to get put up, exhibitors the all rounder knows will get put up, that kind of thing? It isnt sour grapes BTW, as it works in favour of people I know well It is the same when you get to group level, I knew that the gundog group winner would have a very good chance at Crufts as the BIS judge was a gundog person - I do not dispute in the least that Yogi is (to me anyway) a lovely example of a Vizsla (as far as my limited knowledge goes that is!) but judges will tend to pick their 'own' breeds in a group/BIS situation?
BTW I hope I am not coming across being too horrible about this (no blushing smiley any more?) I just like to have a bit of a debate about dog showing - no offence intended, so I apologise if any has been taken by anyone
UnaB
Well-Known Member
Not at all, we all have different opinions about these things!
From my experience i tend to have the opposite opinion lol I have found breed specialist more likely to be "facey" and put up their friends, especially if they are actively involved in showing the breeds. Generally the well known allrounders have nothing to prove so tend to judge the dogs rather than the "faces". Its not always the case, but from my experience i have found this to be more common. I have always had really good results under experienced allrounders who had no idea who i was, but judged the dog. Thats not to say i have not had good success with breed specialists, I have! But my biggest wins have come from allrounders who just saw an (imo) outstanding example of the breed and gave us the award accordingly, rather than someone involved in the breed who is maybe thinking about politics and who might be able to do them a favour when their dog is being judged which happens very often.
I have always thought that at Group and BIS level judges tend to go for something that isn't their breed lol! And if they do go for their own breed or type, it has to be a really outstanding example of that breed as they know it so well, judges are less forgiving of little faults at that level with their own breeds from my experience.
Its interesting how peoples perception of these things differs, isnt it? lol
From my experience i tend to have the opposite opinion lol I have found breed specialist more likely to be "facey" and put up their friends, especially if they are actively involved in showing the breeds. Generally the well known allrounders have nothing to prove so tend to judge the dogs rather than the "faces". Its not always the case, but from my experience i have found this to be more common. I have always had really good results under experienced allrounders who had no idea who i was, but judged the dog. Thats not to say i have not had good success with breed specialists, I have! But my biggest wins have come from allrounders who just saw an (imo) outstanding example of the breed and gave us the award accordingly, rather than someone involved in the breed who is maybe thinking about politics and who might be able to do them a favour when their dog is being judged which happens very often.
I have always thought that at Group and BIS level judges tend to go for something that isn't their breed lol! And if they do go for their own breed or type, it has to be a really outstanding example of that breed as they know it so well, judges are less forgiving of little faults at that level with their own breeds from my experience.
Its interesting how peoples perception of these things differs, isnt it? lol
harkback
Well-Known Member
BIS judges statistics of picking their "own" breed for BIS is actually not that high. I have had BIS awards but only twice from someone in my own breed, my group yes, but breed no. A RBIS though. Speaking to people I know who judge in the UK and worldwide at Group / BIS they say that at that stage they are invariably more picky of their own breed than ever. The BIS favourite a few years back at Crufts was deemed unstoppable as it's group and BIS judges were both the breed specialist but though it won the Group it failed to take BIS or RBIS. I do think a good all rounder can be more objective to the breed standard than a breed specialist who will often be very subjective.
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Interesting replies from both of you, and like I say I can completely see the points you are making and I very much agree that those scenarios can occur too - particularly the breed specialist being even more picky about faults etc? Like Una has said, it is interesting to see different perspectives
But then I suppose judging generally is (obviously!) so subjective, I know for example that one judge I know I will not overlook or forgive what I would consider to be fundamentally important things (good movement, good topline, soundness etc) so I suppose that is where I have got my views and opinions from This can mean that 'commercial' success can sometimes be lost of course, due to a refusal to compromise on what that individual deems important? Not saying that this is always right, or that a 'commercially' successful breeder cannot have good examples of the breed BTW!
But then I suppose judging generally is (obviously!) so subjective, I know for example that one judge I know I will not overlook or forgive what I would consider to be fundamentally important things (good movement, good topline, soundness etc) so I suppose that is where I have got my views and opinions from
This can mean that 'commercial' success can sometimes be lost of course, due to a refusal to compromise on what that individual deems important? Not saying that this is always right, or that a 'commercially' successful breeder cannot have good examples of the breed BTW!