Showjumping: looks like it is correct to pivot knee and swing back lower leg!

flyingfeet

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 March 2006
Messages
8,073
Location
South West
Visit site
My observation for the day (I was trying to comment on the AUW posts, but they have disappeared into the ether!)

BS members will have just received Showjumping magazine and flicking through, there was only around 2 pictures that did not show riders pivoting on the knee

I went to check out the foreign competition:-
Ludger Beerbaum
17609.jpg


Marco Kutscher
kutscher-514.jpg


Marcus Ehning
Marcus-EHNING_2s.jpg


The two top riders who don't have this habit are Beezie Madden:
Olympics+Day+13+Equestrian+45rYITE-cDIl.jpg


And Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum
19299.jpg


Question is should you just forget your lower leg as pivoting on you knee during a jump seems to be the norm?

*Discuss*
 

kerilli

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 April 2002
Messages
27,417
Location
Lovely Northamptonshire again!
Visit site
If I was jumping courses that big, and the horses were happy, I wouldn't care!

Seriously though, it's one thing to be a huge critic BUT if it is working for them, repeatedly and reliably, I am not going to criticise. ;) ;)

edited to add: what really amazes me is event riders who have a different jumping style for xc cf sj, very secure forward lower leg xc, but swinging lower leg for sj. how do they remember which one they're doing?! is it purely length of stirrup leather that affects their leg position so much, so that the different style is subconscious?
 

flyingfeet

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 March 2006
Messages
8,073
Location
South West
Visit site
It wasn't really a criticism, its more than if you read all the books, pivoting on the knee and swinging lower leg back is identified as a fault

However looking at reality (and not a book!) it seems that when you are jumping massive fences they are only a few riders that can keep the lower leg still.

I which case, should amateurs (moi!) stop worrying about the lower leg and just focus on the canter?
 

MegaBeast

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 April 2009
Messages
4,158
Location
South Wales
Visit site
That's exactly what's always puzzled me! Maybe it is stirrup leather length and differing speed? Maybe a confidence thing, I don't know. My SJ position is identical to my XC position so I'm always ultra secure, but I only jump up to 1.05m so maybe if I was jumping "proper" fences it would differ, and maybe if I trusted my horse more!
 

MegaBeast

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 April 2009
Messages
4,158
Location
South Wales
Visit site
I which case, should amateurs (moi!) stop worrying about the lower leg and just focus on the canter?

Sweeping generalisation, but I think those amateurs who have a swinging lower leg also pivot on their hands and throw their upper bodies forwards, whereas these top riders are still balanced and not interfering with their horses. And they're so blooming good that the horse is pretty much guaranteed to jump off the right stride!
 

PaddyMonty

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 October 2006
Messages
8,349
Location
Northampton
Visit site
personally think all the hype over stable lower leg is correct when first learning to jump. It aids in the development of balance and teaches rider not to throw themselves over the horses neck. Jumps are low so no rapid movement to absorb jump acceleration is required.
once balance is acheived and the jumps go up it becomes very difficult to keep the lower leg verticle and not be left behind.
What is common to all the top SJers is that if you look at a pic as they go over the apex of the jump their leg is back to verticle given a good base for decent . That for me is the critical bit.
XC cant really be compared to top level SJ for two reasons, 1) fences are lower (but more scary) and 2) are approached at a more forward pace which means the level of acceleration over the fence is reduced.
Add in the need for a stable base incase horse slips on takeoff (unlikely SJ on surface) and the different styles become sensible and appropriate.
JMHO
 

teddyt

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2009
Messages
4,786
Visit site
Very interesting thoughts. I was always taught that your stirrup was like the ground with regards to balance- so imagine the horse being removed and if your position is unstable, such as with the lower leg slid back, then you would fall over. i.e. replicate the position on the ground dismounted and you should be able to stay in balance and not fall on your nose. take away the horse in most sj photos and the rider would be flat on their face! I dont know about the need to pivot on the knee over big jumps but to me it looks like it can hinder the horse as the rider is forward of the horses centre of balance.
 

UnaB

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 September 2008
Messages
2,478
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
I personally think those pivoting their knees look to have a much more stable position than the two at the bottom who arent... Hard to tell from pics though, but just the impression i got!

I seem to do both, i have pictures of me with pivoting knee and leg swinging back over one fence, then in the same round a few fences on i have a very tidy lower leg...! Weird! Its not something i would worry hugely about as long as i got to the other side of the fence in one piece - me, the horse and the fence in one piece to be specific!! :D
 

FigJam

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 May 2005
Messages
5,716
Location
West Lothian, Scotland
teamhopalong.blogspot.com
Is it maybe to do with the power required to clear the bigger fences? More power and a bigger jump is going to throw your leg further back/require more leg strength to keep the lower leg forward?

Just I've usually found that my lower leg is ok the majority of the time, but when we get a funny stride (e.g. go on a long one and jump bigger than is really required or get close and really bascule up and over in a sharper arc) my lower leg is far more likely to get thrown back out of position. Possibly due to my horse using more power to clear the fence than would have been required to jump it "normally"?

Another thought- do you see more SJ-ers with the "less stable" lower leg over a fence falling off if they do have a last minute dirty stop? Or does their mid air lower leg not really affect their leg when approaching the fence?
 

Roasted Chestnuts

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2008
Messages
7,940
Location
Scotland
Visit site
I think it may be to do with length of stirrups if I rack my stirrups up I actually dont feel as secure in the saddle and automatically (racing trainer dads fault) go into forward seat and dont sit on my butt.

With my stirrups the normal length for me jumping my leg goes back a bit but not to that extent and generally not any further back than my butt.

My toes turn out whne jumping tho..... need to find a way to fix this. It just happens because my leg is on tho lol!!!

Nikki xxx
 

marmalade76

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2009
Messages
6,803
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
Many years ago I watched an FBHS who evented training his horse over big show jumps and he was cursing himself for allowing his lower leg to swing back, so it was obviously important to him to have his leg in the right place!

Maybe it's harded to keep your leg in the right place over such big fences.
 

LEC

Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Joined
22 July 2005
Messages
10,860
www.youtube.com
The bottom two are both Americans and I believe they were both bought up on the Hunter Jumper scene where rider style is a huge part of the class so hence the very stable lower leg. I also believe George Morris is a huge exponent of this style in the USA.
The main issue with the pivot I believe is that it throws the body forwards which if you are not jumping bigger than 1.30m minimum is a negative and you also end up being a little bit more forwards which unless you are a good rider will mean you are often in front of the horse which is not a benefit if you are learning to jump.
 

teddyt

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2009
Messages
4,786
Visit site
Are any of the riders hampering the horse or interfering?

Possibly. If the lower leg were more stable and the rider in better balance then the horses *may* be able to jump better. To me, the riders often look too far forward and in theory this can hinder the horses ability to lift their forehand. many pics iv seen with the lower leg sliding back, the rider is resting their hands/arms on the neck to balance. This would also hinder the horses athletic potential imo.
 

Saratoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2008
Messages
1,823
Visit site
I think the fact that their lower legs move backwards is totally independent from their balance of the upper body, so although the lower leg moves the balance is always there in the upper body, so it doesn't affect the horse.

It's when the lower leg moving affects the rest of the body that it becomes a problem.

And for what it's worth, trying to make your lower leg stay totally still and forwards when jumping a 1.60m on a serious jumper is pretty much impossible IME!
 

teddyt

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2009
Messages
4,786
Visit site
I think the fact that their lower legs move backwards is totally independent from their balance of the upper body, so although the lower leg moves the balance is always there in the upper body, so it doesn't affect the horse.

But how can the upper body balance without legs? You need your legs to balance on. The fact that the lower leg slides back means that the rider often rests on their hands/arms to balance- the body cant hold itself in that position without support from either legs or arms.


And for what it's worth, trying to make your lower leg stay totally still and forwards when jumping a 1.60m on a serious jumper is pretty much impossible IME!

I wouldnt know, ive never gone above 1.20m! :)
 

Saratoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2008
Messages
1,823
Visit site
But how can the upper body balance without legs? You need your legs to balance on. The fact that the lower leg slides back means that the rider often rests on their hands/arms to balance- the body cant hold itself in that position without support from either legs or arms.

Knees and thighs, those top riders don't tend to use their hands or arms for balance!
 

dominobrown

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 March 2010
Messages
4,215
Location
North England
Visit site
Well it seems to work for them! I don't want to criticise some of the best show jumpers in world, jumping some of the biggest fences in the world. Are any of us really quailfied to comment, because I certainly am not!
 

Kokopelli

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 July 2010
Messages
7,170
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
From what I have seen it seems more traditional to have a very secure lower leg. Look at more traditional riders they have a very secure lower leg, whereas more modern riders tend to have an insecure lower leg but this does not affect the horse.

Personally I think this comes from when they are on ponies, they don't jump properlly and throw themselves forward over the fences (especially the very young children on the 128s and 138s. That is why I think it is wrong for these kids to be jumping 1.20 on a 138 at the age of 12! This bad habbit just stays with them until they are on horses.

Thats why the two American riders have a good lower leg as they do not jump stupid heights on small ponies when they are not good enough.
 

Saratoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2008
Messages
1,823
Visit site

Kokopelli

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 July 2010
Messages
7,170
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Actually I see what you mean as I would have called John Whitaker traditional!

The best position I ever saw was from a showjumper who used to be a steeplechaser. For the life of me I cannot remember his name but I'm sure it was the steeplechasing which made him that good.

I also notice that in eventing is the most secure riders did the old format whereas the most insecure riders who you cringe at have never done the old format.
 

JoG

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 March 2007
Messages
1,148
Visit site
KoKopelli I think you may have a point...Is it more to do with where the riders got into the sport? Is a swinging lower leg more prevalent in European riders than riders from the US? in which case could it be related to pony jumping?

**shuffles back out of the higher realms of CR** ;)
 

Saratoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2008
Messages
1,823
Visit site
It's a difficult one as normally the lower leg position and how secure it is is so important! But it's important because it affects your body balance and weight distribution. I think what i am trying to say is, if it doesn't affect balance and weight distribution in any way (e.g. with the names above), then it's not a major problem?
 

Kokopelli

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 July 2010
Messages
7,170
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
I'm really against pony jumping, I think its ok once the riders are like 14+ but I think the younger riders should not have classes that big, they should not go over 1m if you ask me then as they get better the jumps can get bigger.

The problem with it is that they just given these amzing ponies which jump huge and they kinda just sit there and try to stay on their not actually learnign to ride.

This is why only 10 senior riders who competed at european level in ponies have managed to do it on horses cause when they get on horses they realise they can't ride and start knocking poles and having stops and falls.
 

Festive_Felicitations

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 October 2004
Messages
6,739
Location
Earth, somewhere....
Visit site
But if you look at the OP pictures, particularly Beerbaum (er 1st pic?) and not so clearly in the nex 2 pics, while the lower leg had slid back his weight is still firmly in his lower leg and heel and he is not resting on his hands.
This, I think, is the key difference with less experienced riders whose leg slips back as all their weight tends to fall into their arms / shoulders so that they become very top heavy and very insecure. I agree with what others have said that the size of the fence possibly has some impact on position probably related to the efforrt put in by the horse to clear that height and staying with the horse.
Also I'm fairly sure that up untill take off their lower legs would have been in a textbook position.

PS I love J. Whitakers position it breaks so many 'rules' yet appears to be so effective! :D
 

Kokopelli

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 July 2010
Messages
7,170
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
Sorry gone slightly off topic! But what I'm saying is the pivot at the knee tends to come from bad riding at a young age. But as said above I don't think in any of the picture the horse and rider look unbalanced, its when the riders weight is tipped to far forward this is a problem like this :

http://www.horsehero.com/8413

Jess Mendoza (she is definatly unbalanced)
 

marmalade76

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 April 2009
Messages
6,803
Location
Gloucestershire
Visit site
I'm really against pony jumping, I think its ok once the riders are like 14+ but I think the younger riders should not have classes that big, they should not go over 1m if you ask me then as they get better the jumps can get bigger.

The problem with it is that they just given these amzing ponies which jump huge and they kinda just sit there and try to stay on their not actually learnign to ride.

This is why only 10 senior riders who competed at european level in ponies have managed to do it on horses cause when they get on horses they realise they can't ride and start knocking poles and having stops and falls.

Have to agree with this.

A fair few years ago a comp centre staged a lecture by a local junior SJer entitled 'How to get to HOYS without a single riding lesson'. It was funny how the pony that took said rider to HOYS also took every other child who rode it after her but the rider herself was never heard of again!
 

Kokopelli

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 July 2010
Messages
7,170
Location
Gloucester
Visit site
I have seen some really bad accidents because of people like marmalade mentions. They need lessons, my mum said to me when I got my first pony that yes you have a pony but you have to have a weekly lesson and got to pony club! I'm sure this is the only reason I didn't find the transition to horses difficult.

Its not like these people haven't got the money to have lessons they have like 50k ponies! And they are "too good for pony club"!
 

shark1

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 March 2010
Messages
369
Visit site
more of a QR to the original post -

its really hard to keep the 'perfect' lower leg position over a big fence.
i've been complimented on my leg position say when schooling over small 110 fences at home but in nearly every photo i have at shows after about 135+ my leg pivots from the knee like in those photos you showed, but its when you're landing thats its important to get it back.

i really dont think that its an issue where the leg is when you're jumping bigger fences, there are more important thing to worry about. if you cant balance yourself sufficently you wouldnt be able to jump that big successfully anyway!
 
Top