Simple system feeds advice please!

[Monkers]

Hi all.
I have been feeding traditional types of cubes mixes for the last 25 years to many hundreds of horses, and I have to admit 95% of them have done very well on them.
As time goes on and our knowledge of feed related problems improves, I have become less comfortable about feeding such high starch/ cereal based products.
I have been looking at simple system feeds, but to be honest I find the website overly detailed and confusing. The heart of their products seems to be lucurne nuts? I appreciate the reasoning behind using this product, but when's all said and done lucerne isn't a horse's natural diet either? Does anyone use these products and how do you find them? Currently I only have mares and foals, but I would be interested to hear from people who have laminitics and competition horses.

Does such a product exist as a pure grass pellet, no lucerne or cereals with nothing added other than vits and mins?

I am happy to be pursueded on the benifits of lucerne though, I am just wondering why it is used over just normal grass?

 

[minkymoo]

You are probably better off giving them a ring. I feed my Andalusian youngster SS and they were great over the phone.

 

[chestnut cob]

Give them a call, they're v helpful. I feed my horse SS Luci-Cob, has been on it for about 10 months now (though it took him a very long time to get used to it and be convinced he should have that instead of Dengie Alfa-A...!!).

 

[YasandCrystal]

You could try taking a look at the Pure Feeds - they were developed by Lucinda McAlpine who does all things natural with her horses. I did follow Simple Systems for while, but I didn't find them that simple! I feed A&P s Cereal and Sugar Intolerance feed and carob and micronized linseed. I suppose the ideal is adlib hay, grass and a balancer (my holistic vet's recommendation)

 

[itsonlyme]

They do seem very helpful. BUT, when one of mine was diagnosed with Cushings and insulin resistance, they recommended i feed her Lucie stalks. However, it is well known that you shouldn't feed alfalfa to an IR horse. When pulled up on this, they stood by their suggestion.

American Alfalfa (Lucerne) starts off much higher in sugar because of the climate that it is grown in, and also the fact that it is harvested up to 9 times per year at an earlier stage in its growth. Our Lucerne is only harvested 2-3 times per year at a much more mature growth stage so is lower in sugars. American Alfalfa hay is higher in sugar and starch than any of our European grown flash dried lucerne products, we know this because we have had some analysed.

LucieStalks are just the stalk of the lucerne with the higher nutrient leaf removed, the latest analysis shows 1.9% starch which is lower than the ‘whole’ plant. It is also wilted before it is dried, and then brought in to finish it off as the climate does not allow for these thick stalks to fully dry in the sun.

We have every confidence in our products and suggestions that we give you. Those that diss the use of lucerne are generally either misinformed, or have not yet come across our methods of harvesting. They also may have a vested interest in selling you something else, often feeds with such things as molasses and soya oil added!

 

[fizzer]

I feed their Just Grass and Ruff Stuff. Used to use Total Eclipse but now individual and mix my own. The concept of SS is great.

Allen & Paige Fast Fibre is excellent, I moved from Lucie nuts last winter as such a hassle in the big freeze, Fast Fibre soaks in 30 seconds so could take a flask and mix and use straight away.

As said in other posts ring them for a chat, they are not alt all pushy and are very helpful.

 

[Dirtymare]

Hi Monkers.
I started using SS for my cobby mare in June of this year.
Initially I was looking for feed that was no grain and low sugars as she is barefoot/unshod/shoeless and she was still a little footy after 2 yrs and despite being strip grazed.
After reading much on this forum about barefoot/unshod/shoeless I decided to try SS.
I got some good advice from their advice line, as, like you, I found the website very confusing.
I can only speak as I find, but I have to say, my mare has never looked better. She is no longer footy - I would go so far to say that she is now a rock cruncher.
Her coat is super, and her temperament has changed too.
My friend's Arab is on SS too and he looks great.
I would have no hesitation in recommending SS, but do speak to their advisors.
Good luck.

 

[M_G]

SS do a grass pellet http://www.simplesystemhorsefeeds.co.uk/products/viewhorsefeed.asp?id=6&name=Blue Bag Grass Pellets

as do northern crop dryers http://www.northerncropdriers.co.uk/product/grazeon-pellets and my personal favourite Listers (sussex) valley grass (sadly they dont have a website)

 

[legaldancer]

I have a poor doing laminitis and follow the SS method of feeding, however I use cheaper, more readily available products such as Kwik beet, alphabeet, Dengie Alfalfa nuts and unmollassed alfalfa products such as fibregy, hi fi alfalfa and Alfa A oil.

She also gets formula4feet daily which is a balancer and interestingly has alfalfa/Lucerne as one of its main ingredients.

In places like Spain horses are fed on alfalfa hay as they are usually kept in dry lots, ie no grass.

 

[wallykissmas]

Ive not long put my two on SS, started with greengold chaff, purabeet and topnosh for the horse. However its a bit of a pain to get hold of as I have to travel over 10 miles for it or order to be delivered from another company who put extra on the product and the delivery sooo

Am now opting for

Charnwood mill linseed
Dengie Alfa pellets
Dried grass of somesort or alfa chaff if I could find one.
I still have plenty of purabeet so will reasses when the time comes.


I checked alfa A but it has 10% molasses and I dont want to feed soya thats in pure feeds and Alfa A oil.

Northern crop driers do a dried grass and pellet so might be worth a consideration to.

 

[wallykissmas]

I have a poor doing laminitis and follow the SS method of feeding, however I use cheaper, more readily available products such as Kwik beet, alphabeet, Dengie Alfalfa nuts and unmollassed alfalfa products such as fibregy, hi fi alfalfa and Alfa A oil.

She also gets formula4feet daily which is a balancer and interestingly has alfalfa/Lucerne as one of its main ingredients.

In places like Spain horses are fed on alfalfa hay as they are usually kept in dry lots, ie no grass.

Is it D&H fibregy ? as it is mollassed. Not sure what % though.

 

[bumblelion]

I feed my two ss. My tb is on greengold, blue bag grass pellets (not on yet, but when weather turns and he starts to drop weight), total eclipse and joint eclipse. My id gets a handful of greengold and total eclipse and joint eclipse. He's on a diet though!!
I really like the feeds, they look really good on them and the tb is sane!!! The only downfall is I have to be very organised as I have to order over the phone and wait to be delivered!

 

[Sparkly Snowdrop]

I have just started mine on SS about a month ago and he seems to be doing really well on it. It takes him much longer to eat and and he takes his time over it rather than bolting it which I am happy about too. I feed Lucie nuts, pura beet and Total Eclipse. It is a bit of a pain to get hold of here but I just have to be organised and buy in bigger quantities than before. I used to have to order my feed from our local merchants as they didn't stock it all the time anyway.
I agree with the advice to phone or email them as they are really helpful.

 

[horseelady]

I use a very simple method of feeding now, I've treid the American and Canadian lucerne which is alfalfa, and my horses did not like them at all. Then I tried the Spanish alfalfa, and the difference was incredible, my horses loved it! It looks a completely different colour to the American and Canadian, the Spanish one is very green in colour, maybe because it is pure alfalfa, and it is very low in sugar and apparently has little to no starch, but contains vitamins and minerals naturally. I'm told this is the best alfalfa in the world and this is the alfalfa that the Arabs buy to feed their million pound horses!?
This is my feeding programme now to all of my eight horses, just in different measures most are TB.
Pure alfalfa pellet or crumb
Carob kibble
Net of hay
My own cut up nettle
treats fruit and veg
I had to have a good look at what i was feeding as I've one that had chronic laminitis, and another that had laminitis and cushings.
Now both are in sound condition and doing very well.
Good luck with whatever you try, hope it works out.

 

[legaldancer]

Is it D&H fibregy ? as it is mollassed. Not sure what % though.

I don't feed fibregy but a friend did to her veteran. It didn't look molassed. I feed a similar product by Mollichaff called Hi Fi Alfalfa which is molasses free as is their alfalfa oil ( cheaper than Dengie per kilo).

Dengie now do an unmollassed version of Hi Fi and Alfalfa products too.

 

[Piglet]

I feed my horse pure grass nuts, they last for ages and are cheap, I soak them and they end up like sugar beet, I am happier soaking them so he can't choke, I also use a SS lunar eclipse feed balancer, as others have said, ring them up, they are very helpful

 

[Monkers]

Thanks for the replys, you have been very helpful. It's a shame the website is difficult to navigate.

I do have a stockist about 10 miles away, but by D&H supplier delivers to my door.

How much do you pay e.g. for a bag of lucie nuts?

I was thinking for the foals which are warmbloods to feed good quality hay, D&H surelimb powder which I think is an excellent product and maybe a blob of SS instant linseed, purely for the protein. I don't think any extra fibre is necessary, so don't need the lucie nuts.

Not so sure what I would feed the in foal mares? At this time of year they are on D&H build up cubes, a little beet and surelimb and to be fair do very well. I am still not sure I like the idea of feeding lucie nuts, a pure legume to a pregnant mare? Hmmm....


Just had a look at pure feeds. I got quite excited at these products, it seems a sensible approach to modern feeding with just a few core products that should suit most horses Then I saw the ingredients contain cereals including wheat, which I found surprising. They are probably not therefore, miles apart from what I am feeding already.

Food for thought, literally!!

 

[abitodd]

You could try taking a look at the Pure Feeds - they were developed by Lucinda McAlpine who does all things natural with her horses. I did follow Simple Systems for while, but I didn't find them that simple! I feed A&P s Cereal and Sugar Intolerance feed and carob and micronized linseed. I suppose the ideal is adlib hay, grass and a balancer (my holistic vet's recommendation)

Seconded!
I find pure feeds much simpler(excuse the pun)than simple systems.
Its all in one bag,vits/mins/linseed/yeast,from pure easy for laminitics and good doers to pure condition and pure stud for horses that need more calories.
I used to use SS,but my 17hh still growing WB needed huge amounts and once soaked it added up to more than my body weight which was a pain carry!
He now gets ad lib hay and pure balance and my 18 month old Knab gets pure easy.

 

[Snoopy1]

I have fed my boy SS for the past 4 years and he has never looked so good or been so laid back (he's a chestnut TB who looses weight at the drop of the hat, or did!!!). I started on Luci bix and blue bag grass pellets but he didn't like the Luci Bix so we went purely on the grass pellets. I soak a scoop each feed and add a balancer to it to make sure he gets his vits and minerals. I order direct from SS but there is a minimum order amount for free delivery, I think about 7 or 8 bags.

 

[horseelady]

Thanks for the replys, you have been very helpful. It's a shame the website is difficult to navigate.

I do have a stockist about 10 miles away, but by D&H supplier delivers to my door.

How much do you pay e.g. for a bag of lucie nuts?

I was thinking for the foals which are warmbloods to feed good quality hay, D&H surelimb powder which I think is an excellent product and maybe a blob of SS instant linseed, purely for the protein. I don't think any extra fibre is necessary, so don't need the lucie nuts.

Not so sure what I would feed the in foal mares? At this time of year they are on D&H build up cubes, a little beet and surelimb and to be fair do very well. I am still not sure I like the idea of feeding lucie nuts, a pure legume to a pregnant mare? Hmmm....


Just had a look at pure feeds. I got quite excited at these products, it seems a sensible approach to modern feeding with just a few core products that should suit most horses Then I saw the ingredients contain cereals including wheat, which I found surprising. They are probably not therefore, miles apart from what I am feeding already.

Food for thought, literally!!

Pure legumes are briliant for pregnant mares, and foals because they are rich in calcium, and other minerals and vitamins, which are very important for a mare in foal to have in her diet, and for growing young foals.
I agree with you on the cereal side of things, I've moved well away from cereals, as cereals I believe were the source of my problems with the lami in my horses, since I got rid of the cereals and moved to legumes, the lami problems faded away, but if you are doing fine on the feeds you are using at the moment then why do you want to change things?

 

[Monkers]

No, no real researched reason for not wanting to feed pure alfalfa to pregnant mares, other than I know not all legumes are great for breeding mares, red clover being one I think. I just struggle a bit with the concept that alfalfa is this wonder food, when all's said and done, it's just as unnatural to the horse as wheat and oats.

It's true, I have been responsible for the feed programmes for hundreds of horses for many years and yes, the vast majority have done very well, but have they? I have seen an increase in the number of laminitics, where as up until about 10 years ago, I never had a single animal in my care suffer from it. Cushings and IR are on the increase as are headshaking, skin and respiratory problems. Horses also don't seem to behave as well as they used to. I have to wonder why this is and I can't help but wonder if our feed stuffs are to blame.

Am I being naieve in suggesting that all horses need from a concentrate, is grass based fibre as a base plus an appropriate level of protien, vits and mins, and fatty acids from a highly digestible source such as linseed. Why do we need oats, wheat and barley?

 

[Echo Bravo]

Well mine are on Winergy Low Energy and horsehage and all 5 doing very nicely.

 

[Firewell]

Instead of faffing around with SS which I think is expensive for what it is why not make up your own?
You could try a mixture of readigrass or equivalent, grass nuts, unmollassed beet and a stud balancer? No Alfa then .
I feed my TB bog standard fibre nuts and pink powder. I got so confused with feeding that I decided to keep it super simple and he is lovely on this diet but I'm assuming fibre nuts aren't high enough in protein for your mares and youngstock. The grass products and balancer will be though .
I get wary with Alfa, so many horses have problems with it. Alfa A oil gave my horse the runs and brought my mums horse up in lumps!

 

[Monkers]

Instead of faffing around with SS which I think is expensive for what it is why not make up your own?
You could try a mixture of readigrass or equivalent, grass nuts, unmollassed beet and a stud balancer? No Alfa then .
I feed my TB bog standard fibre nuts and pink powder. I got so confused with feeding that I decided to keep it super simple and he is lovely on this diet but I'm assuming fibre nuts aren't high enough in protein for your mares and youngstock. The grass products and balancer will be though .
I get wary with Alfa, so many horses have problems with it. Alfa A oil gave my horse the runs and brought my mums horse up in lumps!

Thanks for that. I am sure alfalfa works for lots of horses, but I am glad I am not the only one who isn't quite sure about it. That said, I have used Alfa A oil on some scrawny TBs a couple of years back, and it seemed to work quite well on them.
I am feeding a hi fi pellet and surelimb to the foal. Still grumbling to myself that the hi fi pellet prob has cereals in it, but as the ingredients are not listed on the bag, who knows?! Still not sure what to do about a protein source. Could go down the balancer route, but they have cereals in as far as I know. Gonna be going back to boiling linseed again like I used to do about 100 years ago at this rate!

 

[overtherainbow]

i have always been suspicious about these kinds of brands since they did a talk to my pony club a few years back that (being a vet student) included so many incorrect basics it was hard not to laugh...

if you want to go natural what about redigrass and oil (not cod liver)- many of the older generation by me swear by it to avoid cereals

 

[9tails]

Gonna be going back to boiling linseed again like I used to do about 100 years ago at this rate!

Boil linseed? Nah, far too much hard work! I buy 25kg bags of micronised linseed from Charnwood milling.

 

[Ladyinred]

Instead of faffing around with SS which I think is expensive for what it is why not make up your own?
You could try a mixture of readigrass or equivalent, grass nuts, unmollassed beet and a stud balancer? No Alfa then .
I feed my TB bog standard fibre nuts and pink powder. I got so confused with feeding that I decided to keep it super simple and he is lovely on this diet but I'm assuming fibre nuts aren't high enough in protein for your mares and youngstock. The grass products and balancer will be though .
I get wary with Alfa, so many horses have problems with it. Alfa A oil gave my horse the runs and brought my mums horse up in lumps!

We spent seven years trying to control what we thought was sweetitch. Turns out, that to a degree it was, but once horse had a diet free from alfalfa the allergy to the mozzie bites vanished. Good stuff, but certainly doesn't suit every horse.

 

[Ladyinred]

No, no real researched reason for not wanting to feed pure alfalfa to pregnant mares, other than I know not all legumes are great for breeding mares, red clover being one I think. I just struggle a bit with the concept that alfalfa is this wonder food, when all's said and done, it's just as unnatural to the horse as wheat and oats.

It's true, I have been responsible for the feed programmes for hundreds of horses for many years and yes, the vast majority have done very well, but have they? I have seen an increase in the number of laminitics, where as up until about 10 years ago, I never had a single animal in my care suffer from it. Cushings and IR are on the increase as are headshaking, skin and respiratory problems. Horses also don't seem to behave as well as they used to. I have to wonder why this is and I can't help but wonder if our feed stuffs are to blame.

Am I being naieve in suggesting that all horses need from a concentrate, is grass based fibre as a base plus an appropriate level of protien, vits and mins, and fatty acids from a highly digestible source such as linseed. Why do we need oats, wheat and barley?

Interesting post, you are saying much of what I have also suspected for some time.

 

[Monkers]

Boil linseed? Nah, far too much hard work! I buy 25kg bags of micronised linseed from Charnwood milling.

Ooo, that sounds like what I need, do they deliver nationwide?

I'm glad I'm not the only one suspicious af anything that isn't grass! It's what horses have evolved to eat for millions of years after all.

 

[PennyJ]

My concern would be feeding too much protein inadvertently to your foals and ending up with growth problems which is where I am now. Of course I can't be sure where I went wrong, but I am minded to think that the Alfalfa A Oil I fed my mare contained too much protein which went into the milk, which is now the foal ended up with contracted tendons. He was born apparently perfect.

I remain a great fan of the low sugar high fibre way of feeding, but I am a LOT more careful about protein contents now. The foal incidentally is now fed grass and good hay when in at night. Not even surelimb any more. One hoof is now good, (well not upright anymore), the other one is proving more stubborn and we still have a way to go, IF it ever does come right...