Smacking a horse when it refuses and smacking before a jump??

MontyandZoom

MontyandZoom

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 June 2007
Messages
2,479
Visit site
I had a great time at the HT on Sunday but Zoomy put in 3 stops at one of the jumps.

I have never had jumping lessons and only really started to jump when I got Zoom (apart from a handfull of times as a teenager).

Now I am getting to the point where I am jumping things that she actually has to jump :D She rarely stops, but when she does, I'm not really sure how to handle it :confused:

When she stopped I actually patted her neck, which sounds odd but she seemed genuinely upset and frightened. I rode strongly towards the jump but she didn't want to play. I did eventually get her over it as the horse behind us caught up and I tucked in behind.

When watching the rest of the class, there were lots of stops there and I was watching how the riders reacted. A couple smacked the horse after stopping and a few gave the horse a good few smacks going into the jump the second time.

I don't ride Zoom with a whip, not that I am against them (Monty had a fair few cracks on the arse in his time) but she has never given me cause to smack her. The jump was going away from the collecting ring so I guess if the horse was napping, the smack on the approach would be justified?? But how do you know if a horse is napping, or is just insecure about the jump????? Am I too soft in not telling Zoom off when she stops??

Long and rambling...sorry, I'm just interested in how others deal with refusals.
 
I think you have to ride what you're sat on.
Some horses are genuinley scared, so a pat on the neck (like you did) is great.
Sometimes they are just being piggy (ie my coloured mare) so if she didn't go off a leg aid and voice then a tap did the trick.
Other horses just need a little "time out" no long, but to calm down and then will go off a leg aid. What I mean by all this rambling is horses for courses I guess.
Generally as a rule I prefer to use the whip as a back up if everything else fails.
I hate watching people whose horses stop and they whallop the life out of them, not nice :o (often after rider error on a poor approach with no leg aid and hauling in the mouth)
 
I think it depends why the horse is refusing/running out. for me, its pointless smacking a scared horse, you've got to be very sure they are taking the mickey/napping to smack - I don't think many riders do consider that when they give them a good smack.

I think it comes out of old habit/tradition, and now that we as a whole know more about horsey psychology, we should be better than that :)

Sounds to me that you did right in the situation: reassured a scared horse, let her see it was ok and re-presented.
 
I've only just started trying to jump my lad, and we had a refusal in the woods over a very wide solid log!! He went up to it, then as he got to where he should take off he spun out sideways. I did the same as you and patted him on the neck, as he seamed frightened (so was I so I think it was my fault)

We didn't try again as I don't really like jumping and after I was shaking from head to foot.

So I would say if they are frightened and stop then smacking them would make it worse, maybe?! So no I don't think your too soft, I think you do what is right for you and Zoom.
 
difficult one - when honey first started grid work she'd refuse in absolute terror - she had no idea where to put her feet lol! and i'd just calmly bring her around and do it again and then she'd (99% of the time) go clear.(so long as i rode positivly;))

i've never hit her for refusing - it just would cause her to loose faith in me as its a confidence issue with her

going into the fence she'd always swing left to rfuse - so i would keep the whip on her left shoulder and she'd get a pat with it if i felt her begin to go that way - left leg alone would not do the trick

i can usually tell now though now if she's going to stop and a good thelwell kick and a growl before will sort it out :D
 
It depends on why they stopped.

If they are young and baby and they are stopping to have a look then I dont mind, I would come around again. I wouldnt tolerate a stop the 2nd time though, they have to jump. Also my youngster never stops because I've been taught to build him up to jumping something slowly and while hes unsure they are so small he can jump them from standstill anyway, not that he is ever unsure really.

With you and Zoom, was it going from light to dark? She may not have been able to read the question with her one eye? Some jumps do present an optical illusion to the horse. If this is the case you definitly did the right thing. Smacking wouldnt of helped at all.

Usually I find that just by sitting up and with steady firm riding, even if my horse dithers he doesn't stop. I was taught that if the horse is naughty or needs back up then a smack behind the leg while coming into the fence is the best way to do it and to never rush into a fence either. If they are unsure its usually best to come in slower (a powerful trot) so they can read the question without losing impulsion, thats what I've been taught anyway. 3 strides out a well timed short sharp tickle with the whip on the side the horse usually ducks out on can be all the encouragement they need. :D

I disagree that one occassional smack when needed can make a horse lose its confidence, normally it is seeking confidence from you so when you can be positive and 100% sure in your riding that they WILL jump it, their confidence in you and then their own ability grows and they start to take you into the fence. This only works of course if you are jumping obstacles that you are 100% sure they are ready for and can cope with :).

Sorry massivly waffled on there! Thats IMO anyway, im sure other people have otherways of doing things :)
 
I've not read all the replies, but I seem to recall from your report that the fence that Zoom refused was in difficult light.

I would tend to give a horse the benefit of the doubt if jumping light to shade at the best of times but with zoom only having one eye that is even more the case. She may well have been having trouble seeing the fence or judging it, so I think you did the right thing not being cross with her. I think it is amazing that she jumps so well, a real testament to her honesty and willingness and her trust in you!

Generally I have no problem with smacking a horse on the way in if it is dropping behind the leg. I think if a horse has stopped and it was your fault then smacking it is harsh, but if it could have gone and was being naughty then a smack is definitely called for. A good wallop on the bum never did any harm!
 
firewell said:
It depends on why they stopped.

If they are young and baby and they are stopping to have a look then I dont mind, I would come around again. I wouldnt tolerate a stop the 2nd time though, they have to jump. Also my youngster never stops because I've been taught to build him up to jumping something slowly and while hes unsure they are so small he can jump them from standstill anyway, not that he is ever unsure really.

With you and Zoom, was it going from light to dark? She may not have been able to read the question with her one eye? Some jumps do present an optical illusion to the horse. If this is the case you definitly did the right thing. Smacking wouldnt of helped at all.

Usually I find that just by sitting up and with steady firm riding, even if my horse dithers he doesn't stop. I was taught that if the horse is naughty or needs back up then a smack behind the leg while coming into the fence is the best way to do it and to never rush into a fence either. If they are unsure its usually best to come in slower (a powerful trot) so they can read the question without losing impulsion, thats what I've been taught anyway. 3 strides out a well timed short sharp tickle with the whip on the side the horse usually ducks out on can be all the encouragement they need. :D

I disagree that one occassional smack when needed can make a horse lose its confidence, normally it is seeking confidence from you so when you can be positive and 100% sure in your riding that they WILL jump it, their confidence in you and then their own ability grows and they start to take you into the fence. This only works of course if you are jumping obstacles that you are 100% sure they are ready for and can cope with :).

Sorry massivly waffled on there! Thats IMO anyway, im sure other people have otherways of doing things :)
Click to expand...


Agree with this 100%
 
I don't usually ride my girl with a stick, but jumping I do as an attempt to stop her running out. I used it for the first time last weekend at a XC clinic when on the first two jumps she refuse, and ran out mainly because she could.

I also agree with Firewells comment 100%
 
Thanks for the replies :)

Katt - thanks, I am always amazed by how brave she is :D I think this is why I sometimes doubt myself.......I am happy that she jumps at all so am always so over the moon that it never occurs to me to tell her off when she doesn't jump.

The light thing is definately a good point. It was a very confusing jump, I can imagine to her that it didn't really look like it was meant to be jumped at all. She also finds SJs difficult, she really backs off like she can't see it, I think it's because they are so gappy she can't judge them.

I feel like I did the right thing with her. It is just hard since I am so thankful to actually get out doing things (never had horses as a child or teenager) that I am sometimes quite soft with her (although she did get a right telling off when I was trying to put her travel boots on and she was spinning round and whinnying to her fella ;))
 
I would not usually pat for a refusal unless I'd made a right balls up - rewarding this behaviour and removing them from the jump they dislike (i.e. turning immediately) is kind of cementing bad habits.

If possible with babies I'll always start them on things they can walk over - so if they cannot jump it they stop look and step over and that gets them thinking they have to go on rather than turn or run out.

I think if you are heistant a slap down the shoulder can afirm to the horse that you are serious about jumping the jump prior to take off!

Smacking at the jump post stop is debatable - if you turn then smack its totally useless, too late and its useless. So has to be in the 'heat' of the stop, facing the jump and at a point when the horse is ignoring you.

I'll own up to having turned then smacked, but now realise I was doing the wrong thing.
 
Depends totally on the horse and the situation... my old pony could be an absolute sh*t at times and needed a couple of good smacks if he refused and going in to the fence the second time... his teeth, back etc were checked... just a typical cheeky pony.... but if a horse is genuinely scared.. then that's a different ball game...
 
I rarely carry a whip when jumping now, as Dan simply loses it if you even think of touching him with one. He's a sensitive soul anyway so usually stops for a reason. Some horses always run one way (always seems to be left!) so if I carry a whip it's usually in that hand, to use on the approach if I feel the horse will drift, or to use immediately after/even during (if quick enough!) the stop/refusal if it seems that the horse is simply taking the p*ss.
I did see someone doing XC at a BE once turn the horse away from the fence after a refusal, and proceed to hit their horse with the whip in their hand on the side opposite to that which was holding the whip, whilst doing his best to prevent the horse bolting back the way it had came (short reins, pelham...) - that, to me, is rather pointless & unnecessary. But I'm not good enough for BE so what do I know? :p
 
Ride what you're on :)

Mine generally requires a smack when he stops because he does it to try it on randomly. He rarely rarely does it now, and will jump out of a horrible spot (as demonstrated earlier this week when I jumped him). However..had I got him to that same horrible spot and he'd stopped I wouldn't have smacked him because it would have been totally my fault.

Also, yes..if we've had a stop and we're coming down to the jump, or I feel him really looking/backing off, I'll use a crop. Its not to punish him, I don't beat him or anything, its to let him know that yes I do expect him to go over it, and sometimes a crop just helps back up my leg and make him know I mean business. :)

Maybe some will say its harsh, but I know if mine didn't want to jump he just wouldn't, and as it is I have a happy horse who jumps happily over most things, and will generally help me out if I put him on a dodgy stride. :)
 
The whip isn't for punishment, it's an aid to back up your leg aid.

So leg on in to the fence, if you feel the horse back off the fence too much and your leg is being ignored then use your whip. If the horse stops right in front of the fence and it was small enough I'd jump it from a standstill, if not then I would turn away, re-present but use the whip on the way in to the fence.

If you use it as you turn away all you get is the horse stops, and then runs very fast away from the fence!

Calling it a 'smack' makes it sound like a punishment when in fact it should only be used to make the horse move forward.
 
Yeah, I agree that it depends what horse you're on.

With Wings, he is such a wuss, that if I touch him with a whip, he will launch off, so if I hit him when he refused, there would be no way I would be able to stop him haha. Really, I don't even carry a whip with him, as I know I won't use it.

With Monica, I used to tap her on the shoulder for the last 2/3 strides into the jump, so she knew I wasn't messing about, but also so that I gained confidence, espcially over large courses. Now, if I jump her, I know she is responsive enough from my legs, and I don't need the confidence, as Wings has got me jumping bigger things, so I am a better now, not that I was never a wuss.

So yeah, it depends what horse your riding as to what to do.
 
I've been told that a 'tickle' on the shoulder going into the jump can often just give the horse that extra push to jump if they are backing off. This worked for me well with my first horse, as he backed off scary fences (not scared, just tended to get a little hysterical when overexcited and would put in crafty dirty stops).
I actually find that using my voice (in a positive and encouraging way if they are worried, or 'growling' if just taking the p) works well too, as does tapping my whip on my boot- horse doesn't get hit but knows I want him to go forward. Obviously depends on individ horses. My old loan TB would NOT be touched with a whip before the jump- even a tap would sometimes result in a stop and a rear- he was a sensitive soul (read: stroppy g!t :D).

Agree with pretty much everyone on this thread re. smacking after a refusal- don't think there's much point in smacking when turning away, as horse will just leap away from the jump (and occasionally carry on leaping, right back down the course- yes this did happen to me at my first HT :rolleyes: I am of course older and wiser now :D )
 
If it was my fault, I'll apologize, stroke the neck and come round again, making sure I get it right.

If it wasn't my fault, for whatever reason, smack on way in if threatening to refuse, smack if refuses.

My fault includes tricky questions that I've not slowed down enough/practiced at home/on xc courses etc, as well as wrong striding and other such issues.

Not my fault includes fear. I have one VERY spooky horse, who simply has to trust me and jump anyway. I can get her over 'scary' jumps by using spurs and a whip when necessary, and the more scary jumps she does the less scared she becomes.
 
The one creature I have that jumps is a head case and I don;t carry a whip anyway, and would pat and 'soothe' if he refused as he would be in a 'tiz' and simply cannot jump in a tiz! I have been advised to 'give him a whack'as he can jump beautifully when relaxed and calm, but will not jump a cross pole if in a tiz. If he's jumping, he will jump anythign, fillers, water, scary stuff, so its not the jump I'm putting him at that is the reason for stopping. I don't actually know what the reason is, unless its one of his other personality's coming out.........

Anyway, if you are happy with a pat and try again, then stick to it. As you say, she jumps a lot for you and you are pleased with her for it. I'm assumiong she had her reasons and she did do the jump witha lead so thats a plus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top