So are these barefoot feet looking ok?

[Birker2020]

Shoes removed 23rd November.

Been trimmed 20th Jan, due trimming next week again.

Bit worried - he's very low at the heel, isn't he at the front? I take it his feet are meant to grow the rim as showing on the underside of his feet in the photos. They are getting more concave although the frog is in constant touch with the hround as evidenced with triangle shaped frog oil on the concrete floor.
Bit ignorant when it comes to barefoot as very new at this.

 

[ycbm]

He isn't supposed to grow that rim, B, it's a false "shoe" often created by horses with weak feet. At the toe in particular, the sole should run smoothly into the horn without a break off line, and the toe should roll itself. It's not that unusual, but it is often a sign of a horse which is suspect metabolically, especially if the sole is producing a ring rather than just the hoof wall. I can't quite see from your photos if it is.

He does look as if he has low heels, but the toe is too high and if that was taken down they would look much better balanced and the heels should strengthen in time and hopefully lose those clefts.

I would suggest a cushings test before he goes to his retirement livery.

 

[Birker2020]

He isn't supposed to grow that rim, B, it's a false "shoe" often created by horses with weak feet. At the toe in particular, the sole should run smoothly into the horn without a break off line, and the toe should roll itself. It's not that unusual, but it is often a sign of a horse which is suspect metabolically, especially if the sole is producing a ring rather than just the hoof wall. I can't quite see from your photos if it is.

He does look as if he has low heels, but the toe is too high and if that was taken down they would look much better balanced and the heels should strengthen in time and hopefully lose those clefts.

I would suggest a cushings test before he goes to his retirement livery.

Oh Lord. Okay. Thanks

 

[Barton Bounty]

I say Get your farrier to get rid of the rim, i will take a pic of bbs feet tomorrow. He has terribly flat feet but they are getting stronger. He was just done yesterday and never had a rim.

 

[ester]

If he were mind I'd be getting rid of those flappy bits of frog which are just encouraging thrushiness and then be packing the clefts with hoof stuff.

 

[Red-1]

I would pay a lot of attention to the frog. It seems to have deep clefts that will accumulate bacteria/fungal growth.

If the frog is not comfortable, they won't use it and get it more beefy.

 

[Birker2020]

I would pay a lot of attention to the frog. It seems to have deep clefts that will accumulate bacteria/fungal growth.

Yes like I say he's due his 8 week trim before 20th March so the frog will be pared away again so this is why it looks particuarly bad atm. I do treat twice weekly with frog oil which has done a good job of preventing thrush.

 

[tda]

Yes his heels still look a bit under run and contracted, but it does take time.
He has good size frogs tho
I would ask the farrier not to pare away the frog, just trim the flappy bits off

 

[Birker2020]

Do all barefoot horses not have this rim then? They all look like Lari's feet on the internet, that's why I'm confused.

 

[ester]

The pictures may be deceptive but it doesn't look like the green oil has done a great job to me.

 

[Birker2020]

The pictures may be deceptive but it doesn't look like the green oil has done a great job to me.

He's not had thrush since. And we are at the 7 week post trim stage so they probably wont look that good. He'd just come off the walker as he stayed in today so they were a little compacted with dried poo despite the hoof brush on them

 

[ester]

Something is causing the cracks in the clefts though.

 

[Birker2020]

Something is causing the cracks in the clefts though.

Ah okay.

I will have to get some photos after he's been trimmed. I text the farrier Monday to remind him he's due for a trim but he's not come back to me yet ☹

 

[ester]

 

[Birker2020]

Ok no worries, thanks

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yes, some pics post trim would be interesting/useful.

 

[ycbm]

Do all barefoot horses not have this rim then? They all look like Lari's feet on the internet, that's why I'm confused.

Some have more rim at the side than others but imo, rim at the toe is almost always wrong, it interferes with the function of the foot. I can see from the way he is standing on his front feet that the balance is wrong and the obvious candidate is that the toe is too high. That will be rocking too much pressure back into his heels, which may partly account for why they are so low.

I can't see any appreciable rim at the toe in the examples you've given.

 

[Birker2020]

Some have more rim at the side than others but imo, rim at the toe is almost always wrong, it interferes with the function of the foot. I can see from the way he is standing on his front feet that the balance is wrong and the obvious candidate is that the toe is too high. That will be rocking too much pressure back into his heels, which may partly account for why they are so low.

I can't see any appreciable rim at the toe in the examples you've given.

No worries, its no big issue. The farrier will sort I'm sure.

 

[Red-1]

These are not perfect, they are Riggy Jig's and he is a retired old man and I do them myself. But, they do show the rim at the sides and heel, but the toe is smooth. He has one white foot, so I have shown that one as it is easier to see.

I would ask the farrier to sell you a rasp and show you how to rasp. You can see from the front view that I did a slight ooopsie and made an error, but these were taken just 4 weeks ago or something and it has already corrected itself. I rasp them at least a couple of times a week, so they gently change and no raggy bits persist. I would not choose to pay for a farrier to come that often. As they become more established in their new shape, and you include road walking, they need less and less attention. I could not leave his for weeks though, he would get very long toes and would be out of balance.

If my frogs have cracks in the clefts, I cleanse every day. Different people have different things, but salt water would never hurt. I have some nippers for anything ragged, a stiff brush to really scrub clean. I do use potions, but Rigs has only really had a once a week application of general hoof oil through winter, now I am on top of it.

To get on top of stuff, I have found that a proper Cleantrax soak is best. You need to buy the boot as well as the powder, and the powder is used all at once and kept in the fridge until use.

I also find that walking out on the road, even 100 yds, totally changes the health of the frog.

I also included these photos so you can see how low to the ground your camera has to be to get meaningful shots. The camera body has to touch the floor.

Again, I'm not saying Rigs is perfect, but he is sound on them!



The oopsie was because he sometimes finds it tricky to hold his leg that high, but he was supple that day and held it high aloft, so I was a bit enthusiastic while it was there! You can see from the underside, it is not structural, the underside was what I could see when rasping and that looks good. The side view shows it was a small error, the front view makes it look worse than it was!

I just wanted to show that, even if you make a small error, it may be better than leaving it 8 weeks between trims.

 

[Highmileagecob]

The deep cleft between the heels shouldn't be there, and indicates some thrushy stuff is going on. If he will let you scrub it with soap and water, then rinse, it's as good as anything. A spray with 1% iodine will help to clean out the nasties. Can you use boots and pads for a little while until you get on top of the situation? You will know when you are making a difference as his heel will start to spread and as wear and trimming becomes effective, the entire heel will start to drop and grow down. Pete Ramey's hoof rehab site has some good before and after pictures, and the Cavallo Barefoot Trim video explains how the foot should look. From the wear pattern on your pictures, he doesn't look as if he is evenly weighting the foot.

 

[sbloom]

I agree about wear patterns to the extent that I can see flare on the right hand sole shot, but there's also a fair deviation in the limb on the left fore, can you see how the cannon bone comes down then the pastern and hoof twist and shift as you go down? It would be a good idea to look holistically as his posture and how he's moving as that indicates some compensation. How the body moves affects the feet as much as the opposite. Equitopia have some great introductory webinars etc on posture, straightness, topline etc.

Edited to add, apologies, I should have remembered his history, hopefully you can improve him just through the feet.

 

[Highmileagecob]

Is your farrier on board with remedial barefoot trimming? Or do you get the rolled eyes and the sigh of 'remedial shoes will sort this out?'
In my experience, farriers will not point out thrush, club feet, laminitic changes etc. even in the worst cases - not sure if they are forbidden from making a diagnosis, and not picking on farriers - just saying!
You need to make Lari comfortable enough to weight the foot evenly, and get some blood flow to the frog. At the moment it is shrinking and not doing it's job. Take it slow, and do not trim huge chunks of hoof to bring the hoof in to balance - do it gradually. In six month's time you will see a big difference. Any chance you can turn him out on a forgiving surface? I tend to agree with not trimming the frog too. If it can start to 'kiss' the ground as he walks, it will do far more good than trimming to shape.

 

[Birker2020]

The deep cleft between the heels shouldn't be there, and indicates some thrushy stuff is going on. If he will let you scrub it with soap and water, then rinse, it's as good as anything. A spray with 1% iodine will help to clean out the nasties. Can you use boots and pads for a little while until you get on top of the situation? You will know when you are making a difference as his heel will start to spread and as wear and trimming becomes effective, the entire heel will start to drop and grow down. Pete Ramey's hoof rehab site has some good before and after pictures, and the Cavallo Barefoot Trim video explains how the foot should look. From the wear pattern on your pictures, he doesn't look as if he is evenly weighting the foot.

No he's going to retirement livery in a couple of weeks so boots and pads are a no no.

I'm waiting for my farrier to get backvto me, he's trimming one at the yard today so I've left him in just in case he does Lari. But i sent him another message again last night as he has no voice mail facility and he's not returnef my text. So frustrating. Luckily the yard he's going to has there owntrimmers who come a few times a month so I'll always be able to get him done.

 

[Birker2020]

Is your farrier on board with remedial barefoot trimming? Or do you get the rolled eyes and the sigh of 'remedial shoes will sort this out?'
In my experience, farriers will not point out thrush, club feet, laminitic changes etc. even in the worst cases - not sure if they are forbidden from making a diagnosis, and not picking on farriers - just saying!
You need to make Lari comfortable enough to weight the foot evenly, and get some blood flow to the frog. At the moment it is shrinking and not doing it's job. Take it slow, and do not trim huge chunks of hoof to bring the hoof in to balance - do it gradually. In six month's time you will see a big difference. Any chance you can turn him out on a forgiving surface? I tend to agree with not trimming the frog too. If it can start to 'kiss' the ground as he walks, it will do far more good than trimming to shape.

Thanks. He's off to retirement livery end of the month and will be living out 24/7 with 20 in a mixed herd on a concrete area with hay feeders in the worst weather and access to large acreage fields 24/7. So its put of my hands in terms of what he stands on, it will be down to him and what he chooses.

 

[Michen]

Bog grew that rim this time his shoes were removed. First time he’s done that in 6 years of on and off shoes. Trimmed it off, hasn’t come back.

 

[Gloi]

This is a summer , self trimmed, never shod hoof , that does a fair bit of roadwork. He doesn't move this hoof quite straight which is the cause of the difference between the sides. It works pretty well though, he has no problems with soundness.
You can see that the wall is at the level of the sole and it is all in wear.

 

[Birker2020]

Farrier had a quick look at him today and said he didn't need trimming yet. I wasn't there but was told this by someone else.

So I'll have to get him done next month by the trimmer at the retirement yard.

 

[Red-1]

Farrier had a quick look at him today and said he didn't need trimming yet. I wasn't there but was told this by someone else.

So I'll have to get him done next month by the trimmer at the retirement yard.

It worries me somewhat that a farrier didn't think that the frogs need supporting with tidying and cleansing, but it doesn't entirely surprise me.

I would maybe see who the trimmer is that Lari will be using. You said the yard is quite close by? So, maybe they will come to you in your current yard for a pre-move check. It would help to get the frogs in better health before handing him over to a retirement livery, IMO. ATM, you could do twice daily cleaning, plus a little road walking, whereas I doubt a retirement livery yard would have time for that.

 

[Birker2020]

It worries me somewhat that a farrier didn't think that the frogs need supporting with tidying and cleansing, but it doesn't entirely surprise me.

I would maybe see who the trimmer is that Lari will be using. You said the yard is quite close by? So, maybe they will come to you in your current yard for a pre-move check. It would help to get the frogs in better health before handing him over to a retirement livery, IMO. ATM, you could do twice daily cleaning, plus a little road walking, whereas I doubt a retirement livery yard would have time for that.

He's going in less than 3 weeks. So there's nothing I can do realistically before then.

I certainly can't do twice daily cleaning. I start a new contract in a week, working full time and have to be at work over 50 minutes away from home by 7.30am!

His frogs are just a bit ragged as they are when they've had no attention for so long. There's no thrush or thrushy smell for certain, the frog oil has done what its meant to.

And as for road walking not a chance in hell. There's a reason the horse is going on retirement, that's because he can't be ridden and there's no chance I could lead him on the roads he's way to spooky.

But thanks anyway.

 

[Birker2020]

I agree about wear patterns to the extent that I can see flare on the right hand sole shot, but there's also a fair deviation in the limb on the left fore, can you see how the cannon bone comes down then the pastern and hoof twist and shift as you go down? It would be a good idea to look holistically as his posture and how he's moving as that indicates some compensation. How the body moves affects the feet as much as the opposite. Equitopia have some great introductory webinars etc on posture, straightness, topline etc.

Edited to add, apologies, I should have remembered his history, hopefully you can improve him just through the feet.

Yep he's completely wrecked sadly. He's off to retirement in less than 3 weeks. I did want the farrier to trim him but he obviously feels that there is to little to trim and it might risk him being footsore. My text to him was that Lari was off to RL and could he please come out and trim as he was due on the 20/03 with a view to making him as comfortable as he could before he went. Whether he's taken that as a criticism I don't know.

He's walking much better now, initially he started off very well back in Nov, then went footy due to the ice but has started to walk much better this last few weeks, the staff have even commented that he leads down to his paddock better.

The flare you mention has been there from when he first arrived, the farrier has been making improvements to it but as you know this can only be done gradually over many shoeings and he can't work miracles. He has a broken back foot pastern axis which was evident on his foot xrays, again work in progress.