So BE is a 2 tier sport - discuss

[LEC]

Where does that leave people like me? A complete numpty amateur who bumbles around badly at Novice? According to BE I am not a true grassroots rider and yet I am hardly in the upper echelons of the sport?

I am still convinced that there should be a novice and intermediate championship class for amateurs. Though Gatcombe is a very good championship - name when the last true amateur winner was?

 

[seabiscuit]

Not sure what you mean- do you have a link?

 

[LEC]

BE has admitted that the sport now is effectively a 2 tier sport with grass roots who are PN and under and never really go any higher and those that compete at novice and above.

 

[H_J]

So all us amatuers who compete Novice/Int are in the 2nd tier then?!

 

[kick_On]

Well for start, i don't think your a numpty if you [ QUOTE ]
bumbles around badly at Novice

[/ QUOTE ] ,

But i do think its all down to getting 'the horsepower' and pros just get more horses to choose from. Amatuera have to have breed, be lucky when buying a youngster and produce or have a huge pocket.

I love the fact a true amateur can compete against the pros, may be there should be more recongion, BUT i would defo NOT want, if it then did did produce a 2 tier system.

 

[icestationzebra]

I've often wondered why they don't have an amateur championship at Nov/Int and to be honest I'd like there to be an advanced one too in order to give the right recognition to those amateurs that have reached that level. I wonder how many amateurs there are out there with advanced horses?

 

[Saratoga]

Amateur championships at Nov/Int and possibly Advanced would be a really good idea i think

 

[SteveGG]

I know where you are coming from but I'm really not sure what the solution is - or even if one is practical.
The grassroots championship is available for anyone who hasn't competed at 2* / Advanced and above in the last 5 seasons. This cuts out most of the true pros but does let in a lot of people who work with horses but don't event at the higher levels. I'm really not sure how many true amateurs win the grassroots championships.
For those at Novice and above then the "Normal" championship is available, although here you do have to contend with the pros. However, if you have a separate amateur championship then doesn't this create a third tier (grassroots, amateur and pro) ? To be honest if I could get to the championship then that would probably be enough - I would rather do ok at something that is stretching me against pros.

 

[LEC]

An amateur who does well at Novice/Int and advanced needs recognition. Maybe points system then? The ones I see doing really well like Sara Squires and getting round Badminton are true heroes to me as provide true inspiration.

 

[Baydale]

[ QUOTE ]
An amateur who does well at Novice/Int and advanced needs recognition. Maybe points system then? The ones I see doing really well like Sara Squires and getting round Badminton are true heroes to me as provide true inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting concept, lec, having a points system. Why don't you work out how many someone like SS has won over the past 3 years compared with another 4 star rider, then a middling amateur (two star maybe) and a middling pro, then a lower level amateur and a "young horse producer" type pro?

I'd offer to do it but my rumbling tummy is deafening my colleagues and I'll get the sack if I don't shut it up.

 

[LEC]

I will have a look tomorrow - Fridays are always quiet at work!!

 

[millitiger]

QR- is there a best amateur price at Gatcombe champs?

if not perhaps that would be a nice idea, the same way you get Best Mare at some events.

 

[FigJam]

It does seem a shame that true amateurs at higher levels will usually miss out to the pros. But, as mentioned, on the other hand you don't want to encourage any split of amateur/pro as it is nice competing and mixing together (not that I personally do!) and maybe having that odd occasion where you can go home and say "I beat WFP/OT/MT" etc!

 

[VRIN]

..and what about the foundation points isn't this (even though BE assure us its not) laying the pathway for yet another tier...experience grassroots horses/ponies with foundation points (I guess before too long ...lots of points) and those who haven't -young horses, new people into the sport etc.....

What is the point of foundation points, I had thought that the whole system was to encourage people to progress through the grades ... and before I get lynched, can I just add, I (realistically) will never rise above the lofty heights of BE100 (and as yet I have not made it above BE90 though I can always dream....) and I have never been in the placings but again its something I aspire to...

 

[Eventerlad15]

Personally I love competing against the pro's and would hate a full two tier system!

Agree that maybe a best amater prize at Gatcombe/4* etc would be good, oh and don't forget the European 2* team thingy too.

 

[TableDancer]

Hate to say it but SS has jacked in the day job and gone pro

(and good on her too, btw) I like the idea of best amateur prizes at the Champs but not just one, why not have 1st-6th amateurs within the actual Champs? Although how you define amateur would be interesting - might have to do it on rider rankings? I agree with eventerlad15 I'd hate a proper 2 tier system,,,

 

[Chick1989]

I agree table dancer, the issue would be defining an amateur and a pro..... and if anyone ever did people would find loop holes and all the arguments would start again.

I have often thought why they dont have a pro section and an amateur section at events but it would just be too hard to define.

 

[zero]

But couldn't the pro section be the top 150 riders or something. If your a pro your surely going to be riding more horses so are higher ranked than the amatuer riders. I liked the owner rider sections that some events used to have. I don't mind competing against the pros but find it a bit infurtating when OT, MW, JB etc all have at least 1 horse in every novice section, In some cases more like 3 so therefore you have to be really on top of your game to be in with a chance of getting well placed. Im not saying people don't do better than them but the options of owner rider sections give people the option of taking on the pros or not.

 

[Gamebird]

I quite like the odd OR section too. One year at Catton I had the choice of 3 Nov sections to enter: normal, PAVO 6yo, and OR. I decided that my chances of success were going to be higest in the OR section and lowest in the PAVO section with the normal section in the middle. Entered the OR and ended up in the PAVO. Bah

 

[TheMule]

I think BE are certainly pushing it that way.
I feel stuck in the middle- there's nothing for me. I have to spend a ridiculous amount on each event, travel miles to get to competitions because they often put intermediate classes on weekdays which I just can't do and get very little back bar the adrenaline of riding the jumping phases.

 

[zero]

Thats typical Gamebird has happened to me to.

I understand why people like competing against the pro's but for me an OR section means I have a much better chance of a placing riding against people of a similar standard. I put a lot of blood, sweat and money into my horses, and eventing is what I choose to spend my money on as I enjoy it far more than a night on the p*** so the thought of having a good chance of getting placed, a few points and maybe a bit of dosh back is a much bigger draw than being able to say I got a better dressage than OT but then had to SJ down so missed a placing.

 

[Gamebird]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want it all my way, just a few OR sections across the season, like the local section with special prizes that some events eg. Belton run.

I wouldn't ever change the fact that you get the chance to ride against the best. I beat Lucinda Green last season, but that's not the point. The point is that we got the chance to compete in the same class as her at all. It certainly makes me up my game as I know that to get placed - even at PN - my dressage has to be spot on and I have very little margin for error in the jumping phases.

 

[OldGit]

Having just watched "Cool runnings" about the Jamaican Bobsleigh team, I would give an arm, leg and any other non vital bits to "bumble around" against pros rather than compete in an amateur champ. Indeed my aim this season is to qualify for a 2* and maybe, just maybe, beyond.... if I survive.

 

[zero]

Im thinking along the same lines Gamebird, I am by no means wanting OR rider sections and then sections just for the pros but I think the option for people at odd events is a good idea. I also think these were and could be just as competative as normal sections. I also think these should only be PN and novice level after that I reckon anyone whos riding at intermediate and advanced should be up to taking on the pros.

 

[deskbound]

For me it would ruin most of the fun if it was two-tiered... I'm not sure (and I'm prepared to be corrected!) whether there is another sport with such equal participation levels all through (pro v am, male v female). However... I think more amateur/locals recognition would be fab - some events used to have great O/R or locals prizes, trophies etc and it's a really nice touch (plus useful for local sponsors? Am sure someone will correct me there too!). As for defining amateur, that's tricky.... perhaps "employed for min of 25 hours a week" & students, not to have worn GB flags either as teams or other international abroad.... (sorry S_J et al!).

So you could do amateur prizes at nationals / UK internationals, and O/R sections locally.... Does any of that make sense?!

 

[tigers_eye]

I remember at Blenheim there was an owner/rider prize, went to the guy who was 3rd (Tim Something, his horse was called Quackers!), and an amateur one. Not sure how they judgede it but down in lowly 26th or whatever I was I got the amateur prize! I think that's a good way to do it. Was a really nice painting presented by the artist btw.

 

[zero]

Yeah I think at the higher levels that a great way to do it. Theres no way Im expecting OR rider sections at 3 days or intermediate and above as you wouldn't get the entries. Im not for a two tier system either as do agree its nice to compete against the pros but I would like the odd event with OR sections so you had the choice. Then you have the option. I entered my 5yr old in the local pavo last year as I felt that even though I was going to be against pro's on their 5yr olds I wouldn't be against more experienced horses and also so I could compare how mine was coming along compared to theirs. I was pleasantly supprised.

 

[teapot]

Agree about a Novice champs - friend of mine who's brought her horse on a green 4yr straight from a field in Ireland to double clears at novice level has nothing to show in terms of any amateur recognition. She can't run and qualify for the Grassroutes final as the horse has got points and it's his jumping that brings her up the results rather than it all being a dressage competition unlike PN etc) She's definitely a true amateur as works 5 days a week to fund all her costs, no arena etc and does it for the sport.

Don't get me wrong - her's and one of my dreams is to one day beat someone like Lucinda Green in a PN or N section for example, that's the very beauty of BE I think about competing against the pros. However some recognition above PN would be great!

 

[LEC]

I think we all like competing against pros but it would be nice for the amateurs to get a bit of recognition. Especially when doing incredibly well. In USA they have pro and amateur leagues. The pro is defined as anyone who works with horses as their main income.

 

[Horsemad12]

A few years back they ran an amateur championship at Oasby at the end of the season. They defined amateur and it was based on getting a top 10 place to qualify, think they did PN and Nov.

Initally it was planned to run over 3 days, and then did run over 2, with the SK being the final phase in reverse order. They did this for a couple of years and then stopped it so I cannot have been popular,

I think it was sponsered by Hils website eventriders, I am sure she could shed more light.