So.....definitely not known for my rants....BUT...

[Tia]

....2 questions -


Why do people continue riding horses who are quite obviously lame?

Can you not see you are doing damage to your animal that you profess to love? What are you thinking?



And why do people whose horses are on bute BELIEVE they are sound?

Surely they aren't completely stupid? Bute numbs everything - therefore your horse is NOT sound when on bute. Why do you think that he is? Doh!

 

[lilpete]

I so agree with you, one thing I hate is people that bute a lame horse and carry on riding it.

 

[GTs]

But Tia everyone is going to agree with you, point fingers at others, claim they never do it, but due to a lack of experience or knowledge are culprits.

I am quietly confident in my ability to detect lameness - when Clarita went lame I could tell in the first 3-5 steps at the walk that she was not right. When I trotted for my pro to get his opinion, he said she looked fine. Her lameness was so slight, it was only visible when turning her suddenly to the right at trot.

The thing that gets me - people here give me grief as I have a hard line with my horses. I do not treat my horse like a pet, or a member of the family - they are livestock (which contrary to popular belief you can still love). I never planned on keeping any horse more than a couple years, and firmly believe that a horses skills to find a good home are solely their manners. I probably had some of the firmest boundaries, but at the same time I probably had to get after my horses the least on here. I remember one time with Clarita as she kicked at the tie rail, and about 1-2 times a month with Stella just because she was young. I never rode with a whip or spurs, got my horses moving nicely off my leg (I think this is partly due to knowing what type of horse I like, and what works for me), but neither of them ever spooked, bucked, reared or had any battle of wills. When it came to their health - Stella was purchased with a surgical problem which we fixed, and all other problems were treated properly. I am not saying I am perfect, but when I mention I put my horses on a trailer for an 1100 mile journey over 4 days with a total stranger, or when I told the vet that if a kick to the gut was cheaper then a sedative that would be my choice, and people here suggest I do not care about my horses is unfair. I would rather have that lifestyle than be a useless P.O.S. which is all too common these days!

 

[Chambon]

It's one of my gripes too Tia! I posted about this a couple of weeks back.

There are quite a lot of horses in my neighbourhood and to see them literally hopping up the lane out on a hack is soul destroying.

These people should be shot!

 

[Happytohack]

Sadly there is a school of thought that lame horses can "be ridden through it". There is also another school of thought that an old arthritic horse should be kept "going" on bute so that it can be ridden. Our big chap has arthritis in his fetlock, despite injections into the joint, he is still slightly lame. He is fine pottering about in the field, but IMO it is unfair to ride him, so he is now happily retired. I have been actively encouraged by others to keep riding him "through it" and bute him up to "make him sound" - no way.

 

[H's mum]

You can't make sweeping statements like that though - sometimes it's in the horse's best interest to "bute them up and ride them through it" - As I have had to do on a number of occassions with my mare - and how others on the forum have had to do with theirs - It's not nice having to do it - but that's life- it's better in the long run for the horse's welfare and long term soundness - Sweeping statements do not help -

Also - what happens to that slightly arthritic but ever so capable competition horse? Should that have to endure pain and stiffness in order to be ridden? (as everyone knows it's the best thing to keep them working and moving in order to keep the joints loose?)... Should that horse struggle - or should life be made easier on it?

Kate x

 

[Murphs_Mum]

GT - I kind of agree with you here - accept that, my horse is definately my pet and was bought with the intention of staying with me for life but I am tough I expect him and the horses I work with to have perfect manners, I don't tolerate bad behaviour and to be truthful horses tend not to mess me around.

Tia with regards to riding through lameness I hate it but around here it certainly happens, one friend had to ride her mare through a stiff shoulder as recommended by the vets and someone else I know who's horse is diagnosed with pedal ostitis is about to go down the bute route. If that fails the vets want to de nerve him which I hate the sound of.

 

[sojeph]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do people continue riding horses who are quite obviously lame?

Can you not see you are doing damage to your animal that you profess to love? What are you thinking?



[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get that at all!!!

[ QUOTE ]
And why do people whose horses are on bute BELIEVE they are sound?

Surely they aren't completely stupid? Bute numbs everything - therefore your horse is NOT sound when on bute. Why do you think that he is? Doh!

[/ QUOTE ]

agree, infuriating again!
I realise that some things need treating with bute and that some things are eased with movement and therefore bute to take the edge off so they can move about will help but to totally mask the pain with bute and kid yourself that your horse is sound is wrong IMO!! Its not ok until you take it off bute and its still sound!
I know my back is better with moderate exercise and that some mornings I need a couple of anti-inflammitaries(sp?!) to get me moving again

 

[bellaboo]

Agree totally!
My mare had a lot of treatment and was given alot of time to recover after a problem in her fetlock. Vet advised she stayed on bute (just one sachet) for about two months after as the slight lameness he could see, he thought was mostly in her head from fear of it hurting. Did this and now (touch wood) she has been fine ever since.
I think if i did'nt give her the bute, her not being right would have continued for alot longer.

 

[TheresaW]

My horse has arthritis in his fetlock and we still ride him on advice from the vet. He is lame in the mornings and hobbles out of the stable. By the time we get to the field he has pretty much worked it off. He is then ridden in the evening. Vet told me that we should keep him as mobile as possible to stop the joint becoming stiffer. I don't bute him at the moment unless he is going to a show or sponsored ride (again, vet said it is fine) and he does them only occasionally. Obviously, as he gets older, the situation will be reviewed and if I have to, I will stop riding him and let him retire.

 

[Murphs_Mum]

The Vets round here certainly push for the work them through it route, with bute when necessary. You can only really go on the advice your given and I know one of our old mares comes out of the box crippled and loosens up nicely by the time we get to the field. It worries me more with the horse I know that has a serious diagnosed problem - de-nerving really scares me.

 

[malibu211211]

How would you get around my boy's problem?

He has a coffin joint problem which in the summer when the ground is rock hard he goes lame

Despite 3 joint injections he will always go lame on hard ground no matter how careful I am.
He is 11 years old and perfectly capable of riding club activities. Our vet (who I trust completely and has ALWAYS done the best for him) suggests complete box rest for a week with a sachet of bute a day. Then to start riding him in the school, taking things very slowly, once he is cantering in the school he is allowed to hack out. When he is hacking out he is turned out. The bute is reduced very slowly. He has been on 1 Bute a day for 6 weeks now and is now being reduced to 1/2 a bute a day, eventually he will come off it completely.
This is what happens every summer and has worked for the past 3 years.

Would you retire my horse then?

Buteing up a horse that is obviously lame and you don't know the cause just to hack out that day or to compete that day is wrong but I don't think Buteing a horse with ongoing problems under veterinary supervision is wrong.

 

[H's mum]

[ QUOTE ]
Buteing up a horse that is obviously lame and you don't know the cause just to hack out that day or to compete that day is wrong but I don't think Buteing a horse with ongoing problems under veterinary supervision is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]
WELL SAID!!!! Could agree more!!

Kate x

 

[charlie76]

I know a number of horses which has arthritic type problems that HAVE been diagnosed by a vet which are happy enough doing rc type off work on 1 bute a day. I think that as long as you know what is wrong with the horse and the horse is under vet treatment then there is no problem with this.

If a horse is a little stiff then exercise will help it loosen up and if 1 bute a day helps the stiffness then this must be better that the horse stiffening up and left in a field?

 

[henryhorn]

I think Tia is actually refering to a vid that appeared with the owner asking forum people's opinions if the horse was sound. We don't know if she rode the horse just for the video or longer, so feel unable to make a judgement.
There are degrees of lameness in my opinion, arthritic horses often start off pottery and after half a mile are absolutely sound. Some horses when ridden on bute are sound if you watch them, so can then be classed as "sound", and "unsound" when off bute. I worked several of my best riding school ponies for many years on daily bute, and their other option would have been euthanasia. As it was they had a happy life and when the bute ceased to work, I had them pts.
Our senior stallion is being pts on November the 1st, he is in his twenties and has been unsound on one joint for years. His quality of life however was such that he ran about his paddock happily and was ridden once a year for the carnival. This year however he went lame part way through it, we brought him home, gave him some bute to get him through the next few days and looked at him carefully over the following days. He is sound on the straight and lame on corners, downhill etc, so after seeing him attempt to run along his fence and limping, the time has come to put him out of his pain. he probably could carry on buted but a stallions life is a tough one mentally anyway so the decision and the vet have been booked.
We have never believed he is totally sound on bute, and treated him accordingly.
I feel as I said at the start some people don't immediately rest their horses when they go lame or give them sufficient time off to recover, that's a very different thing to riding an arthritic horse on bute...

 

[Tia]

Quite!

At no point have I suggested that people should go against the advice of their vet. I know fine well that most vets prescribe to working the horse through the issue whilst on bute but there are some who still ride a lame horse without calling in the vet or giving the horse the rest it needs.

I wasn't talking about folks who have elderly/arthritic horses on bute or horses under veterinary supervision. However those whose horses are on bute under veterinary supervision often make the mistake in thinking that their horse is sound and not that their horse is "sound on bute".......these are not the same.

 

[Gingernags]

I was thinking it wasn't like you to be so dismissive but the explanation is better!

I would only bute under vets advice, would never ride a horse through lameness unless on vets (or farriers) advice and agree there are two ways to look at it -

Sound "on bute" is not sound full stop.

I think HH has summed it up well with her stallion. Whilst it helped and he was happy - then you can't argue with the bute making him more comfortable. Now it is worsening and causing pain, have to say I agree with the next decision. Very responsible attitude and one many on here would follow.

There is no excuse for riding a lame horse without veterinary advice just to "get them through it" or just giving bute without referring to a vet.

 

[GTs]

After time off while the horse is still on bute - can you really call that 'riding'? Walking and a bit of trotting isn't what I classify as riding.

And about trusting your vet - we had a horse at the hospital with laminitis. The horse had been seen by a vet earlier in the week, who diagnosed him and informed the owner to jog him for 15 minutes per day in the round pen.

 

[debbielinder]

i agree totally and you cant tell these people their horse is lame as they would prob call you all the names under the sun for interfiering.

on the bute thing i would do whatever my vet said i trust him completley and hes always got my horse sound/healthy again. last year my mare was diagnosed with very slight bone spavin but was quite lame she was given box rest cortisone injections and then he put her on a 2 week course of bute and told me to ride her he told me she may feel lame at first but to ride her through it and it worked she come completley sound back to normal work.

i am now in the process of bringing her back to work after a tendon injury although not cantered her yet she is sound though her hocks do not have the same movement due to the mechanics changing in her bad one. she trots up sound but occassionally has the odd bad stride (this prob once or twice in an entire hack of a bout an hour and 15 mins) and my vet is very happy with the way shes going she isnt on any painkillers or any medication for it tho still having physio once a fortnight i think my horse is 200% happier now that she can be ridden and is back to her usual self trying to jump on the postman the leg doesnt seem to bother her and if shes happy i am happy!

 

[Theresa_F]

For years my old TB had a bute every other day to keep her comfortable. She was in her late 20s and a little stiff. As a result she was still able to have a full and very active life.

She was the sort that retirement would have meant misery - and I would have had her pts. She lived to work and in all other ways she was perfectly healthy. My vet made this recommendation and she hunted etc to the day she died pain free and enjoying herself.

Cairo is in light work - he went out for an hour this weekend and really enjoyed himself, and had a canter with the others which he loves. He does very occasionally go lame - normally on hard ground if he has done something daft out with Chancer. Again he is getting on and I do give him bute and a few days rest then bring him back into gentle work. I will continue to work him when and if he eventually does go on bute. My vet has advised me to do this as to leave him without excercise will not do him any good.

I do disagree with buting up a horse to compete or keep working a lame horse without seeing a vet is wrong, I also agree that you should not give bute to cover up lameness.

I agree that a horse on bute for pain is not sound, but there are times it is necessary, especially with the OAPs to strike a balance between able to extend the quality of life with gentle exercise or having them uncomfortable.

 

[tabithakat64]

people who ride a lame horse or do not follow the vets advice about medication, workload etc really make me mad. Theres a beautiful mare at our yard who has arthritis and is meant to be on bute and in light work only. The poor mare is ridden every couple of weeks and galloped and jumped by the teenage daughter and also her friend who looks after the mare, they don't warm up, are convinced that she's sound, they haven't got a clue and it makes me so mad because there is nothing I can do, the teenagers mother has no control over her and doesnt really care but wont put the mare out on loan, let anyone else take care of her because her daughter would be upset...

 

[emma69]

I think there are a number of answers - firstly there are an awful lot of owners there who can't tell if a horse is lame or not. At the livery yard we frequently trudged across fields to point out the horse wasn't a 'bit fresh' it was 'hopping lame'. Generally they were mortified, they just couldn't tell. Secondly, there are a lot of people who think 'working through' is the answer - in some conditions, yes, but as a general rule (and certainly if it is a new lameness) no. As for riding on bute, yes, it is warrented in some circumstances, and I think it needs to be taken on a case by case basis