So demoralised :(

Zipzop

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So I ride classically/biomechanically and have been for ten years or more, and we work towards the horse being in self carriage and with lightness being the key and maintaining a non tense, soft but firmly stable position.

However, I occasionally teach on a riding school/livery yard and I get the chance to ride some school horses and occasionally some of their dressage horses.

The problem is I cannot for the life of me ride these horses as they just do not respond to the way I ride. I imagine I must look like a beginner and I feel so crap and despondent.

The RS horses just won't go for me as they all need to be ridden quite hard with pony club kicks and regarding the big dressage horses they have to be held up so tightly on a short rein, they seem to be ridden by the rider 'holding' them together, that it causes tension all down the arm and then as a result through the riders position which is so far in the opposite direction of how I ride my own horses at home and how I am taught.

I am fairly good at teaching but when my manager sees me ride, I think she must think, WTF! Feeling so down :(
 

cobgoblin

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Poor riding school horses!.....I hate this modern way of holding a horse together, I can't imagine what damage it does.

You carry on with your nice classical method..and save your horse's neck and back...and your own arms!
 

Zipzop

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Poor riding school horses!.....I hate this modern way of holding a horse together, I can't imagine what damage it does.

You carry on with your nice classical method..and save your horse's neck and back...and your own arms!

Thank you, so nice to hear some encouragement :)
 

FlyingCircus

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So I ride classically/biomechanically and have been for ten years or more, and we work towards the horse being in self carriage and with lightness being the key and maintaining a non tense, soft but firmly stable position.

However, I occasionally teach on a riding school/livery yard and I get the chance to ride some school horses and occasionally some of their dressage horses.

The problem is I cannot for the life of me ride these horses as they just do not respond to the way I ride. I imagine I must look like a beginner and I feel so crap and despondent.

The RS horses just won't go for me as they all need to be ridden quite hard with pony club kicks and regarding the big dressage horses they have to be held up so tightly on a short rein, they seem to be ridden by the rider 'holding' them together, that it causes tension all down the arm and then as a result through the riders position which is so far in the opposite direction of how I ride my own horses at home and how I am taught.

I am fairly good at teaching but when my manager sees me ride, I think she must think, WTF! Feeling so down :(

Could it just be the initial transition to your style on the RS horses isn't very pretty? My horse is used to racing around and jumping with his ears up my nose, so when I'm asking him to work properly, it looks REALLY ugly at first. He's very clever, so I need to be consistent in making his life hard when he's working incorrectly and then soften instantly when he works nicely. This must look AWFUL to anyone watching the battle of wills we have at the start of the session, but this is becoming less and less and when he's working properly, I can be nice and not make his life so difficult.
 

Mari

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A few years ago I was asked to judge dressage at a riding school. Ok it was very hot but all the RS horses & ponies were kicked & whacked around the arena. i told the writer (my friend who had got me to judge). That I didn't want to judge there again as the riding was so awful, I felt for the ponies! She obviously passed my comments on as 2 years later I agreed to judge again. What a difference! No sticks & all riders riding from the leg. Ok noses poking out & not round but the ponies and I were so much happier. So we're the riders when they say their score sheets!
 
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xspiralx

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Part of being a good rider is about being able to adjust your style to get a tune out of different horses, even if they are trained in a different way from how you prefer to ride.

Your post is actually coming across as a bit of a stealth boast and a bit of a snub towards the way the horses at this yard are trained and ridden. I'm not really sure what it is you're hoping to achieve with this post? At the end of the day if you want to get a good tune out of these horses then you'll have to adapt your riding style, as I presume you're not in a position to be retraining them. If you want to stick with your classical style of riding then you'll have to accept that not all horses will respond well to that if they haven't been trained in that way. It's up to you really.
 

FlyingCircus

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Part of being a good rider is about being able to adjust your style to get a tune out of different horses, even if they are trained in a different way from how you prefer to ride.

Your post is actually coming across as a bit of a stealth boast and a bit of a snub towards the way the horses at this yard are trained and ridden. I'm not really sure what it is you're hoping to achieve with this post? At the end of the day if you want to get a good tune out of these horses then you'll have to adapt your riding style, as I presume you're not in a position to be retraining them. If you want to stick with your classical style of riding then you'll have to accept that not all horses will respond well to that if they haven't been trained in that way. It's up to you really.

To add to this, my instructor rides loads of different horses and can get a good tune out of ALL of them. It might take a bit of work, it might look ugly at first, but she has them going nicely by the end. That's one of the things I like about her - her riding changes to suit the horse she's riding. She is VERY soft and still with her youngster who has been trained correctly from the start, but gives my lad a hard time when he giraffes because there's no way riding softly like she does on her youngster will promote a good response from him. He'll just pootle on with his head in the air, as that's what is easiest for him to do because of the muscles he had built up.
 

FfionWinnie

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Part of being a good rider is about being able to adjust your style to get a tune out of different horses, even if they are trained in a different way from how you prefer to ride.

Your post is actually coming across as a bit of a stealth boast and a bit of a snub towards the way the horses at this yard are trained and ridden. I'm not really sure what it is you're hoping to achieve with this post? At the end of the day if you want to get a good tune out of these horses then you'll have to adapt your riding style, as I presume you're not in a position to be retraining them. If you want to stick with your classical style of riding then you'll have to accept that not all horses will respond well to that if they haven't been trained in that way. It's up to you really.

Yes I agree. I rode my friend's western trained cutting horse a few years ago. I've never ridden western and had nearly no clue really what the aids were or how to sit in a western saddle (nor does my friend she bought her as a hack) but I still was able to ride her and get her to do lots of her tricks by trial and error! The horse wasn't upset by me trying different things and we both had fun.

You should be able to ride any horse and bring them towards your desired way of going without being demoralised.
 

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I find every horse I get on is sooooo different, I can't see how every ridden horse of every breed size conformation temperament and type of work required of it is ever going to ride the same, it would be a very boring thing if they did, I like getting on different steeds as I find it improves my experience and confidence.
 

sarcasm_queen

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Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are? No shame in that, but maybe you need more practice riding a range of horses.
 

Wheels

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Do you have to ride these horses as part of your job? If you do then you are going to have to find a way to make it work - maybe ask the usual riders of the dressage horses to give you a lesson or two.

If you don't have to ride the horses though and you don't enjoy their way of going or the way they are ridden then just dont ride them. There is nothing wrong with sticking to your principles
 

Leo Walker

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It depends what sort of riding school you teach at. I've worked at some where the horses where kept tuned up and would go well when ridden properly, but I've also worked at more than one where they wouldnt, they just wouldnt be physically capable of working correctly as they shuffle round all day long. I wouldnt ever teach anyone to boot them to go and yank to stop etc but sometimes all you can achieve is them moving forward off the leg when asked sadly.
 

Fidgety

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The RS horses just won't go for me as they all need to be ridden quite hard with pony club kicks and regarding the big dressage horses they have to be held up so tightly on a short rein, they seem to be ridden by the rider 'holding' them together, that it causes tension all down the arm and then as a result through the riders position which is so far in the opposite direction of how I ride my own horses at home and how I am taught.

I am fairly good at teaching but when my manager sees me ride, I think she must think, WTF! Feeling so down :(

Ride the horse you have. If a RS horse is used to cantering when the rider whistles the tune to God Save the Queen and your own horses are used to cantering when you hum something from the Planet Suite and you expect a RS horse to canter when hearing 'Mars' then you are bound to be disappointed. You need to quietly hum a tune that the horse vaguely knows until you teach it the same tune that your own horses recognise.

As a rider and trainer in classical ways, you are the one that needs to wean the horse off using a spanner on a nail instead of a hammer. You shouldn't expect the horse to have read the works of Sylvia Loch if they've only been bought The Beano :).
 
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Zipzop

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Part of being a good rider is about being able to adjust your style to get a tune out of different horses, even if they are trained in a different way from how you prefer to ride.

Your post is actually coming across as a bit of a stealth boast and a bit of a snub towards the way the horses at this yard are trained and ridden. I'm not really sure what it is you're hoping to achieve with this post? At the end of the day if you want to get a good tune out of these horses then you'll have to adapt your riding style, as I presume you're not in a position to be retraining them. If you want to stick with your classical style of riding then you'll have to accept that not all horses will respond well to that if they haven't been trained in that way. It's up to you really.

Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are? No shame in that, but maybe you need more practice riding a range of horses.

I'm not boasting, snubbing or saying I'm great, I'm not sure where that has come across. I'm well aware of my limitations, but I guess Im saying I disagree with holding reins so tightly to 'hold the horse up' or to pony club kick it to death. In my eyes although these methods exist they feel utterly wrong and I guess I'm asking is this way of feeling wrong? The more time you spend riding unresponsive horses and ones you have to hold together, the harder it is to go back and be that soft rider again. Residual tensions, muscle memories and habits will come in to play when you try and go back to the bio/classical stuff. IMO.
 

Arzada

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... I guess Im saying I disagree with holding reins so tightly to 'hold the horse up' or to pony club kick it to death. In my eyes although these methods exist they feel utterly wrong and I guess I'm asking is this way of feeling wrong? The more time you spend riding unresponsive horses and ones you have to hold together, the harder it is to go back and be that soft rider again. Residual tensions, muscle memories and habits will come in to play when you try and go back to the bio/classical stuff. IMO.
I choose to avoid places where I don't like the way animals/people are treated. It's too upsetting.
 
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xspiralx

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I'm not boasting, snubbing or saying I'm great, I'm not sure where that has come across. I'm well aware of my limitations, but I guess Im saying I disagree with holding reins so tightly to 'hold the horse up' or to pony club kick it to death. In my eyes although these methods exist they feel utterly wrong and I guess I'm asking is this way of feeling wrong? The more time you spend riding unresponsive horses and ones you have to hold together, the harder it is to go back and be that soft rider again. Residual tensions, muscle memories and habits will come in to play when you try and go back to the bio/classical stuff. IMO.

Still not sure what your point is really. Your way of training may be 'better' but that is not how these horses have been trained or are used to being ridden.

As I said above, a good rider can get a tune out of any horse by adapting their riding. That does not necessarily mean booting a horse to death though or yanking it in the gob. If I get on an unresponsive horse that doesn't go off the leg then I'll use spurs or a whip to get a sharper reaction so I can train the horse to be more responsive. If I get on one that is heavy in the hand I'll do lots of half halts and work to lighten the horse and soften it in front. It's schooling - a session should improve the horse but you don't build Rome in a day. And you also can't get on a horse like that and expect to be able to use light soft aids straightaway and have the horse respond - you need to work to get to that point.

I'd say that's probably the key difference between a person who rides and a person who can train a horse. The person who rides has been taught a set of aids and will get on a horse and apply them - to greater or lesser effect. The person who can train a horse will get on, feel how the horse goes, and adapt their riding to get the best from the horse and improve its way of going.
 
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xspiralx

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Err, I'm not. It wasn't clear what you were hoping to gain from the post - people usually post with some intention, either asking for advice, or they want sympathy or praise.
 
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dominobrown

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I have been there, when i bought my event horse he was professionally produced by a 6foot man and held together. I physically couldn't do that. I had a classical trainer and things got worse until they got a lot better, he goes better than he ever did before and i have reduced his dressage penatitiles by 10 on average.

However, although i empathiae, i do agree with sprial. Yes you may be able to ride classically, but can you train?
I went over a period of 3 years trsining with classical and dressage trainers, only a drop in the ocean, but most horses i school I can improve. Working on dealing yards you had to get a tune out of anything asap.
You need to work on training techniques, like if a horse is heavy in the hand wanting to be held together, firstly encourage him to stretch down to the contact and seek it himself, the bring in the exercises to increwse engagement behind, gradually encouraging him to take weight of his forehand and carry himself.
 

Goldenstar

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A good rider can ride any horse and coax a tune out of them .
horses like you describe need riding with compassion but determination so that they will give free forward movement ,finding what each ones responds to best is a skill that takes time to develop .
To be a truly effective rider on all types of horses showing all types of issues you need to be training to quickly use your feel to indentify what's going on and what you you need to do to get that horse going better .
It's a question of having your theory of training clear in your head and being able to apply it in a flexible way while riding and using your feel and timing to adjust the way the horse goes .
To do this of course you need to ride lots of different horses to develop your skills .
 

Red-1

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I agree that there is a difference between being able to ride to a method on a horse that is trained, and being able to input training into a horse that has not been trained as you would wish.

I would see it as an opportunity to improve your skills. When training new riders for the Police we would have a couple of horses who were well able to ignore riders who did not yet have the skills of intent and timing. If it spiralled down to the riders kicking and hitting, to very little effect, when a rider would say "he won't do it" then I would have to mount up and hey presto, the horse would be strutting his stuff, on the bit, best foot forwards. That is not a quick fix, that is years of experience, it is definitely timing rather than strength, but when the horse understands, then it is quite quick, as in within one session showing considerable improvement.

I would have a look at Andrew McLean and his methods. It would be worth attending one of his clinics as a spectator. He has refined down the timing to a method that is understandable and really works. It would not contravene your principals.
 
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