Social licence questions again.

[ycbm]

I don't know if the editors of H&H have any idea what the average person on the street, and a big proportion of horse owners and carers will make of reporting the statement by Nick Skelton "We don't abuse our horses, we've nothing to hide" when it's accompanied by a horse apparently trussed up like a turkey. Most of us know that there's nothing inherently harmful in that lot as long as its being used very sensitively, but I think the horse world is going to have to get a lot more aware of these image problems.

 

[Highmileagecob]

After gradually moving my cob to treeless saddle, then bitless bridle, plus he had always worked barefoot, I was quite surprised by the comments of fellow horse owners. Apparently, I was only doing it for show, I couldn't possibly have any control, my horse would end up lame, sore backed, headstrong, no manners. Even my vet has me labeled as 'one of the barefoot brigade.' The comfort of my horse came first and he wasn't working right in standard tack. He is now 28, has a back like a two year old with no white patches, ultra soft mouth and manners to die for.
When I learned to ride over sixty years ago, you were thought to be failing in your schooling if you had to change out of a snaffle, and a martingale was for uncontrollable horses. Just where has all this extra tack come from? And why?

 

[criso]

I'm not sure if non horsey people would pick up on the straps issue and what is typical and what is excessive, especially in a picture with the horse at rest rather than one where it has its mouth open against a harsh bit.

I see videos on social media showing stressed horses weaving or hopping about on the spot set to music and the reaction from people who don't know horses is "oh look he's dancing"

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure if non horsey people would pick up on the straps issue and what is typical and what is excessive, especially in a picture with the horse at rest rather than one where it has its mouth open against a harsh bit.

I tested a couple of people and they were concerned about the chain, the number of straps, the obviously closely fitted thin grackle straps, the lever bit and they didn't even realise that one set of straps was draw reins but if they had they would have been horrified.
.

 

[tristar]

the bit looks very high in the mouth.

 

[stangs]

What criso said. I think the content of the article is more likely to rile up people who know a little than the photo.

It’s a ridiculous piece, because, rather than addressing any common criticisms, it just says “we couldn’t possibly abuse our horses because we love them so much”. To some extent, I agree with the bit on how to implement welfare-related rules, but the rest is just depressing. “Racing runs a very tight ship” doesn’t mean that that’s a horse-centric, good ship. And then “that’s why we ensure they receive the best of everything – from their stables to veterinary care, feed, love and attention”: not the best of turnout then, Mr Skelton? (I know that’s just semantics, but the fact that horse care starts with keeping them in boxes shows a fundamental issue with the way competition horses are often treated.)

I appreciate that he must have a short word limit, and can’t go into much detail, but the audacity to say “we’ve nothing to hide” and then try brush all the concerns (turnout, injury rates, tack choices) under the rug. Oh, and “it’s very hard to explain the element of risk to non-horsey people” - even harder to explain it to the horse.

I don’t care how other people choose to live their lives, so would ask others to show similar respect to ours.

Seriously? There have got to be domestic abusers who’ve said that exact same sentence.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks Stangs, I hadn't actually been able to read the article, it was the picture that got me. I agree with everything you've written.
.

 

[eahotson]

What criso said. I think the content of the article is more likely to rile up people who know a little than the photo.

It’s a ridiculous piece, because, rather than addressing any common criticisms, it just says “we couldn’t possibly abuse our horses because we love them so much”. To some extent, I agree with the bit on how to implement welfare-related rules, but the rest is just depressing. “Racing runs a very tight ship” doesn’t mean that that’s a horse-centric, good ship. And then “that’s why we ensure they receive the best of everything – from their stables to veterinary care, feed, love and attention”: not the best of turnout then, Mr Skelton? (I know that’s just semantics, but the fact that horse care starts with keeping them in boxes shows a fundamental issue with the way competition horses are often treated.)

I appreciate that he must have a short word limit, and can’t go into much detail, but the audacity to say “we’ve nothing to hide” and then try brush all the concerns (turnout, injury rates, tack choices) under the rug. Oh, and “it’s very hard to explain the element of risk to non-horsey people” - even harder to explain it to the horse.


Seriously? There have got to be domestic abusers who’ve said that exact same sentence.

Curiously enough I was talking to someone connected to an RDA centre.I asked if the care of the horses was good and she waxed lyrically about the superb arena and the beautiful stables!!!

 

[eahotson]

I don't like what I see BUT in defence of show jumping I have to say the following.The BSJA decided to try and make the sport more "horse friendly" and so they lightened the poles and made the cups much shallower.The consequences of all of this, as the tracks became more challenging and the heights of the jumps higher was that a lot more accuracy was needed, hence all the fancy tack around now.
The competition world at the top keeps talking about "pushing the envelope" but what is wrong about watching a simpler show jumping track/dressage test ridden properly and comfortably for the horse.

 

[Cragrat]

A vague waffly 'feel good' fluff piece, and a totally ill-considered photo , as if they just grabbed the first photo of a SJ horse they had on file.

 

[Cragrat]

I don't like what I see BUT in defence of show jumping I have to say the following.The BSJA decided to try and make the sport more "horse friendly" and so they lightened the poles and made the cups much shallower.The consequences of all of this, as the tracks became more challenging and the heights of the jumps higher was that a lot more accuracy was needed, hence all the fancy tack around now.
The competition world at the top keeps talking about "pushing the envelope" but what is wrong about watching a simpler show jumping track/dressage test ridden properly and comfortably for the horse.

it is an arms race - between the need to find who is best, and the need to be the best. As the courses get harder/ more technical, the riders 'improve' or change their training, and horses are bred diffrently, so the courses have to to get harder again....

 

[eahotson]

it is an arms race - between the need to find who is best, and the need to be the best. As the courses get harder/ more technical, the riders 'improve' or change their training, and horses are bred diffrently, so the courses have to to get harder again....

Yes you are right but the end results are very often very ugly.

 

[sbloom]

Talking of breeding horses differently, the level of dysfunction that accompanies this incredible level of movement is worrying, the industry really needs to take a long hard look at itself - https://www.facebook.com/reel/523663249946927?fs=e&s=m (look at the neck and head especially). If we insist on this sort of breeding we need to train for stability not range of motion, expression etc, the horses that get through are the ones that compensate the best. Ultimately however it will lead to more and more soft tissue issues, ECVM etc. It's bonkers but as with climate and all sorts of existential problems of our own creation we just don't seem to be able to stand back and see it.

 

[blitznbobs]

Talking of breeding horses differently, the level of dysfunction that accompanies this incredible level of movement is worrying, the industry really needs to take a long hard look at itself - https://www.facebook.com/reel/523663249946927?fs=e&s=m (look at the neck and head especially). If we insist on this sort of breeding we need to train for stability not range of motion, expression etc, the horses that get through are the ones that compensate the best. Ultimately however it will lead to more and more soft tissue issues, ECVM etc. It's bonkers but as with climate and all sorts of existential problems of our own creation we just don't seem to be able to stand back and see it.

It also has a lot to do with how we breed now. It used to be you had to get the mare to the stallion (or vice versa) you now just can look in a catalogue and order semen from anywhere in the world. The mare doesnt even have to have any health checks (although responsible breeders do) and there seems to be no question of what the mare is when you use a particular stallion. This means that the breeding dirextion can go faster and faster in one direction- because the choice is so vast . I am guilty of doing this but i am actually breeding for slightly less movement and more temperament cos I would like my foals to last longer than a couple of years but its very tempting to go for the flashy movement when you watch the videos - and if you are breeding at a comercial level you have to keep an eye on what is fashionable too.

 

[paddy555]

I tested a couple of people and they were concerned about the chain, the number of straps, the obviously closely fitted thin grackle straps, the lever bit and they didn't even realise that one set of straps was draw reins but if they had they would have been horrified.
.

I kept looking at that bit and wondered if they were draw reins but then thought they couldn't be could they.

There are so many bits and pieces on that horse's head it needs a labelled diagram to see what everything is.

forgive my ignorance but where the martingale goes around the neck at the junction of the orange/pink rubber bit what is the dark patch just to the side of it.

 

[eahotson]

It also has a lot to do with how we breed now. It used to be you had to get the mare to the stallion (or vice versa) you now just can look in a catalogue and order semen from anywhere in the world. The mare doesnt even have to have any health checks (although responsible breeders do) and there seems to be no question of what the mare is when you use a particular stallion. This means that the breeding dirextion can go faster and faster in one direction- because the choice is so vast . I am guilty of doing this but i am actually breeding for slightly less movement and more temperament cos I would like my foals to last longer than a couple of years but its very tempting to go for the flashy movement when you watch the videos - and if you are breeding at a comercial level you have to keep an 6 what is fashionable too.

Too much money around.

 

[blitznbobs]

Too much money around.

Thats not what the papers say

 

[Surbie]

I kept looking at that bit and wondered if they were draw reins but then thought they couldn't be could they.

There are so many bits and pieces on that horse's head it needs a labelled diagram to see what everything is.

forgive my ignorance but where the martingale goes around the neck at the junction of the orange/pink rubber bit what is the dark patch just to the side of it.

Sweat? From the veins on the horse & froth round the bit it looks like it's just been working fairly hard.

 

[sbloom]

Thats not what the papers say

The wealthy have got progressively wealthier, they're driving the asset market (horses, antiques, classic cars, property, investments) and any quantitative easing, and the way it filters back up to investor's pockets, means inequality widens. See Gary's Economics on youtube. The rest of us are poorer.

 

[eahotson]

The wealthy have got progressively wealthier, they're driving the asset market (horses, antiques, classic cars, property, investments) and any quantitative easing, and the way it filters back up to investor's pockets, means inequality widens. See Gary's Economics on youtube. The rest of us are poorer.

Interesting.

 

[paddy555]

After gradually moving my cob to treeless saddle, then bitless bridle, plus he had always worked barefoot, I was quite surprised by the comments of fellow horse owners. Apparently, I was only doing it for show, I couldn't possibly have any control, my horse would end up lame, sore backed, headstrong, no manners. Even my vet has me labeled as 'one of the barefoot brigade.'

I can predate you on this. . I got my first horse,, a cob, when I was 19. He was BF not out of choice but because he couldn't have his feet picked up, farrier with a rasp over the knees hadn't helped my training in this area very much. Who knew I would become the height of fashion in the barefoot world 50 odd years later.

He also wouldn't stop, even at a walk. Looking back I can see that whilst I knew he had been abused by men (he was terrified of them) I didn't know enough to see he had had no training with a bit or anything else. I also had no knowledge of how to do correct that.

Everyone told me to put a gag on to stop him and a few other bits and pieces. I probably didn't because I would have had little idea how to so I went my own way (I wasn't a "know it all" 19yo, I was quite sure I knew nothing) I attached a pair of reins to a headcollar and away we went and we could stop quite easily from a canter on open moorland. Then I got rid of the headcollar and put a neck ring on and again we stopped easily.

I haven't read the article mentioned but just find all that tack abhorrent.

There seems to be a lot of parallels in our breeding of difficult to ride horses and dogs.

Looking back dogs were nothing like the problem, show jumpers seemed to manage with a lot less. When I was a child Pat Smythe was one of my heroes. I don't remember all this tack yet still large fences.

ETA what is the chain for, is it for leading? I'm afraid I am not very worldy wise.

 

[eahotson]

Thats not what the papers say

Not for all of us but definitely for some of us.

 

[stormox]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

 

[sbloom]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

Jimmy Savile was pretty successful too (NOT a direct comparison!). But seriously look at the system and what role models like these, and the stories they tell, contribute to the mismanagement of horses.

 

[eahotson]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

Nick Skelton was a volunteer,Big Star wasn't.

 

[stormox]

Jimmy Savile was pretty successful too (NOT a direct comparison!). But seriously look at the system and what role models like these, and the stories they tell, contribute to the mismanagement of horses.

Are you saying Nick Skelton 'mismanaged' his horses? I'd like to see anyone on here ride Big Star round an Olympic course.
He has a fair bit of tack I agree, but would you rather he'd missed out on gold? I bet nearly everyone in UK was cheering him on, not assessing his tack.

 

[equinerebel]

Nick Skelton and Big Star have won Olympic Gold.
Who are we to criticise?

Is rollkur okay as long as they win Olympic gold?

 

[MagicMelon]

Everyone has varying degrees of what they think is kind and what isnt. In the equestrian world, the degrees of this seem extreme. I agree, most of the pro's tack looks insane to me. I dont believe we suddenly have much stronger horses (less trainable since they need all this stuff?) these days than the olden days where if you look at photos they had far more basic tack and managed to skip round badminton etc. Gone are the days of people starting at the "mildest" bit they can get away with, it seems to be a status thing that if you have loads of gadgets and serious bits then you must be a really good rider which I find pretty bizarre as surely its the opposite.

 

[MagicMelon]

Is rollkur okay as long as they win Olympic gold?

This. Why do some people feel pro riders at the top of their sport can never be questioned? Its a bit like the Oliver Townend thing, some people saying us amateurs have no right to judge as "he knows what hes doing". Crazy! We dont have to ride round Olympic courses to be able to say something doesnt look right or fair. We can all see basic animal welfare, we know horses just as well as professionals do. We have every right to judge and our opinions are valid.

 

[Caol Ila]

After gradually moving my cob to treeless saddle, then bitless bridle, plus he had always worked barefoot, I was quite surprised by the comments of fellow horse owners. Apparently, I was only doing it for show, I couldn't possibly have any control, my horse would end up lame, sore backed, headstrong, no manners. Even my vet has me labeled as 'one of the barefoot brigade.' The comfort of my horse came first and he wasn't working right in standard tack. He is now 28, has a back like a two year old with no white patches, ultra soft mouth and manners to die for.
When I learned to ride over sixty years ago, you were thought to be failing in your schooling if you had to change out of a snaffle, and a martingale was for uncontrollable horses. Just where has all this extra tack come from? And why?

I've also gone total hippy and my horses are treeless, barefoot, and 50% bitless. Fin does go in a fancy titanium snaffle at the moment because it seems to be the thing he likes best that gives me enough control to not end up in a tree, should we disagree about directions. It's attached to a Western headstall that doesn't have a noseband.

The reason I posted the photo of Hermosa trying out her new saddle pad was that I couldn't get a second opinion at the yard. People have never seen anything that isn't a traditional English saddle, so when asked, "Does that look okay," the answer is, "Oh, I don't know anything about that kind of saddle."