Sold an unhappy horse with ulcers

[EquineHOSS]

Hi, so I’m just looking for people’s opinions really in a very sticky situation I am in.

I purchased a horse this summer that was going to be my first competition showjumper, something to learn with that has been there and done it.
Was told cribbed just minorly after being fed.
Didn’t see him crib once in the three times I went to view & try as was in a stable with bars all around so never thought about it.
Swung for the seller who was putting the saddle on his back, so red flag went off. She Brushed it off and told him to “oh behave”.

said she treats all her horses and him as if he has ulcers/ diet wise, even though no scope was ever done. So I put the saddle issue down to pain memory as he was absolutely flawless whilst riding.
flatwork & jumping was unbelievable. Good to groom, hose down, everything else.
Stood for you quietly to get on and off so fell completely in love with him.

had a two stage vetting just because he was a bit pricey (wish I had 5 stage) but came from people that I knew and trusted and professional people, jumping Grand Prix themselves. He was fit for purpose and nothing major was picked up, vet just said he was very anxious. Assumed it was because of lack of turn out and stabled a lot.

put a deposit down but wanted a trial just to check with the hacking he wasn’t an absolute lunatic, finally agreed after much persuasion for 2 days. Hacked him out in open spaces with another 2 horses, galloping, absolutely perfect. Didn’t put a foot wrong just a bit strong. Decided to go forward with the purchase as he was everything I ever wanted and was very talented.

took him to lessons, clinics, unaffiliated, local county shows during the summer a few months after I had him. He was brilliant BUT the crib biting was far more extreme than I was told. October came and I felt he wasn’t working properly one day, didn’t feel forward, felt like he completely switched off no matter how much I was trying to push him forward, transitions whilst schooling.

So I decided to get a master saddler out to check, told me his back was really sore from ill fitting saddles for so many years and he was never sold with tack to me. Their thing was a devoucoux fits all.

gave him a month off and a new saddle, had physio, rehabilitation therapist, dentist. There were issues with all. Brought him back in to work slowly for a good few weeks, then the bucking and the explosions started to happen. 90% out of the times I would ride him he would either shoot off randomly or randomly buck. Each buck getting bigger. First thought it was fresh, contacted person I bought from and showed the videos, they also said it was freshness.
week or two went on, issues were not disappearing but getting worse.
eventually agreed to myself something was wrong, a lot of tail swishing, random bucking.
then the last week he started attacking my mare who is normally his best friend, normally graze side by side. As they are the only ones turned out together. Vet came out straight away and as I suspected she agreed he had very reactive symptoms to gastric ulcers. He is now booked in for scope, had bloods done & back x ray to rule out kissing spine.

Previous owners before person I bought him from informed me that he has always been very quirky and they tailored him a very strict unique lifestyle that suited him. I was sold a “school master, easy do-er, lives out, don’t have to ride constantly”.

I feel very very done by. Especially by a professional who I trusted. Do you think this is one of those things or have I been withheld information about issues just for a purchase?

There are a few more stories that wasn’t told about but hasn’t affected him so far yet. Like staying at a show ground over night.

 

[EquineHOSS]

Just to add to this post, his diet was also very tailored just incase. He also is turned out pretty much 24/7 now, lives a very chilled out lifestyle but yet everything has spiralled.

 

[dixie]

Well it’s difficult to tell. It sounds like he wasn’t too bad when you got him. Maybe the additional move has set the ulcers off or made them worse.
what routine did the previous owner to the dealers say he was on?
and did they suspect/treat for ulcers.
Hopefully he’ll scope positive and can be treated successfully. He sounds like he could still be a lovely horse and it might help with his cribbing too.

 

[Melody Grey]

I’d treat the ulcers and go from there. It doesn’t sound like a mis-selling in the sense that you were aware of the potential for ulcers, windsucking etc at purchase.

did your vetting notes mention anything re: ulcers? Just wondering if your insurance might claim the condition is pre-existing if they did?

 

[Leo Walker]

the first thing I do when I get a new horse home is get the dentist, physio and saddler out. You didnt do that, so presumably used tack you had? You competed happily all summer until he got worse. He may well have always had issues, but he behaved for you for months, so it could well be you that caused those issues.

If I was buying something that cribbed I would always work on the basis that it had ulcers regardless of what the seller said.

I wouldnt spend any time thinking about it and would just focus on getting your horse well again. Ulcer are normally a symptom of other pain, so I'd want to make absolutely sure there werent any other issues with lameness etc before I treated them

 

[SpringArising]

It sounds like the seller knew you were a bit naive and played things down. As soon as she said 'I treat all my horses as if they have ulcers' I'd have been out the door. No one says that unless they know a horse needs special treatment.

 

[AmyMay]

I feel very very done by

I’m not sure that you’ve been done by. You were told about the cribbing, and cribbing will often be an indicator of ulcers. You’ve probably had the horse around six months in which time he’s been all you wanted. It’s quite probably a management issue (and now that you have a properly fitted saddle and confirmation of ulcers you will hopefully be able to move forward with a happier horse).

 

[JFTDWS]

TBH, I'm not sure why you're blaming the seller when you've had him for a good number of months now, and he was relatively asymptomatic and a nice ride when you bought him. The tack issue is certainly your fault as much as theirs as your saddle didn't fit, hence you needed a new one.

 

[ycbm]

If your saddler is suggesting that six months in your own saddle is not enough to have caused whatever pain they found, I'd get another one that talks better sense.

.

 

[Red-1]

Sadly, they don't come with a lifetime guarantee, and as you say "...took him to lessons, clinics, unaffiliated, local county shows during the summer a few months after I had him. He was brilliant..." would lead me to think that he was not problematic to ride for a long time after you bought him.

The other part..." BUT the crib biting was far more extreme than I was told." is kind of countermanded by the fact that you visited 3 times and did not see him crib once. It sounds like he really did not crib much for them. They did declare the cribbing, and that is a red flag for other issues, such as ulcers, but also for a condition causing pain that causes ulcers...

It does sound like the saddler thinks your saddle was not ideal, hence a new saddle. I can't see that his saddle with the old owners was that bad as you are explicit that he was flawless, and flatwork and jumping was absolutely unbelievable.

FWIW, all of my horses are also fed an ulcer friendly diet, as I think this is a better way to feed rather than because any horse has a particular problem.

Moving forward, I would just be consoled that this horse was so good for so long, and if he is comfortable with the new saddle, has a scope and any treatment that he needs, that he will probably make a lovely horse in the future. I have found that you have to 'own' whatever problems you have currently to progress forwards, and if you blame the old owners then you are more likely to get stuck.

 

[Puzzled]

I’d treat for ulcers...approximately 70% of horses have them so chances are he has to. As for the diet I personally feed all my horses with ulcers in mind....that’s common sense to me! I feed a low starch and sugar diet and make sure they have plenty of access to fibre.
I don’t think the seller was trying to hide anything, hoping you can get him sorted out. Remember you can get hind gut ulcers to!

 

[Melody Grey]

As said by others, ulcer friendly diets for all here....so if we get them, we know it’s not management related.

 

[Abi90]

Ulcers can come on pretty quickly and you’ve had a good while of good behaviour. I’m not sure he’s been missold I think he’s just developed ulcers since moving house

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse was pricey so you had a two stage vetting .
never ever do that again .
You are several months down the road and these problems have develped on your watch .
You did not have a five stage you don’t have any bloods
So now you have deal with it it’s part of horse ownership .
You need a proper problems with performance type work up I suspect ulcers will be the least of your issues .

 

[EquineHOSS]

The horse was pricey so you had a two stage vetting .
never ever do that again .
You are several months down the road and these problems have develped on your watch .
You did not have a five stage you don’t have any bloods
So now you have deal with it it’s part of horse ownership .
You need a proper problems with performance type work up I suspect ulcers will be the least of your issues .

only ever bought one other horse 16 years ago for £800.
Definitely learnt from my two stage vetting.
Bought in August and problems started end of October. Assuming ulcers have flared up, scope will let us know Friday.
I’m trying to help this horse as much as possible unlike all the other homes he’s been passed around in, that is not a problem at all.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

OP, you say yourself that the horse performed well over the summer. The problems have developed since then, while the horse has been with you, your saddle needed to be replaced, why would these things be the previous owner's fault/responsibility? I think you need to step up and meet your responsibilities, tbh. The horse is in your care, so you need to get to the bottom of the problems and deal with them as best you can.

 

[EquineHOSS]

Sadly, they don't come with a lifetime guarantee, and as you say "...took him to lessons, clinics, unaffiliated, local county shows during the summer a few months after I had him. He was brilliant..." would lead me to think that he was not problematic to ride for a long time after you bought him.

The other part..." BUT the crib biting was far more extreme than I was told." is kind of countermanded by the fact that you visited 3 times and did not see him crib once. It sounds like he really did not crib much for them. They did declare the cribbing, and that is a red flag for other issues, such as ulcers, but also for a condition causing pain that causes ulcers...

It does sound like the saddler thinks your saddle was not ideal, hence a new saddle. I can't see that his saddle with the old owners was that bad as you are explicit that he was flawless, and flatwork and jumping was absolutely unbelievable.

FWIW, all of my horses are also fed an ulcer friendly diet, as I think this is a better way to feed rather than because any horse has a particular problem.

Moving forward, I would just be consoled that this horse was so good for so long, and if he is comfortable with the new saddle, has a scope and any treatment that he needs, that he will probably make a lovely horse in the future. I have found that you have to 'own' whatever problems you have currently to progress forwards, and if you blame the old owners then you are more likely to get stuck.

I’m definitely sure the ulcers have flared up since being with me.
but seller only owned for 4-5 months herself in the summer months. Problems have just developed since going in to winter months.

saddle was not ideal I agree which is why I had saddler. Saddle was used with risers, had clearance from withers but if a saddle needs to be used with risers then it does not fit. Saddle that was tried in definitely did not fit!
Honestly not blaming any one. I just wanted advice to see what people thought. I want to help as much as possible to put him right. Just not sure what stress would have caused to flare up ulcers worse.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s very likely if he has ulcers they are a secondary problem .
You need some good veterinary advice .

 

[EquineHOSS]

OP, you say yourself that the horse performed well over the summer. The problems have developed since then, while the horse has been with you, your saddle needed to be replaced, why would these things be the previous owner's fault/responsibility? I think you need to step up and meet your responsibilities, tbh. The horse is in your care, so you need to get to the bottom of the problems and deal with them as best you can.

It’s very likely if he has ulcers they are a secondary problem .
You need some good veterinary advice .

We had pain issues with dentist, was told he was up to date. Had him checked.
Had a sore back, had correct saddle fitted and time off to heal.
Vet is also double checking for any suspected kissing spine with X ray Friday.
scoping is first as he has many symptoms.
not sure if we’ve eliminated the pain as he has already had pain issues or if there is something else underlying.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Just to add to this post, his diet was also very tailored just incase. He also is turned out pretty much 24/7 now, lives a very chilled out lifestyle but yet everything has spiralled.

I bought a lovely mare from a pro who had her in a strict routine with limited turnout. I slowly introduced her to a stable herd and then turned her out 24/7. In theory the 'better' and more chilled way to manage horses. Well it blew her mind! She went virtually feral. She developed ulcers. She box walked incessantly when she did come in. There was a pig nearby which freaked her out too and I moved yards but even in the new yard she needs limited turnout and a regular routine. She's sweet as again now on her strict routine and doesn't go out for too long. She has forced me to confront and change my assumptions about what horses need. She's telling me what she needs and although it feels strange, she needs restricted turnout to stay contented. Not saying your horse is the same but it's worth bearing in mind that your ideas and his ideas may differ! Also even though my horse's problems developed far quicker than yours, it never occurred to me to blame the seller. I accepted it was a management issue not a miss selling one and my responsibility to find a way of managing her that kept her relaxed and happy.

 

[teddypops]

The horse was pricey so you had a two stage vetting .
never ever do that again .
You are several months down the road and these problems have develped on your watch .
You did not have a five stage you don’t have any bloods
So now you have deal with it it’s part of horse ownership .
You need a proper problems with performance type work up I suspect ulcers will be the least of your issues .

You can have bloods taken with a 2 stage if you request them. My vet doesn’t do them as standard with any vets, when you book the vetting you are asked if you want bloods taken. 5 or 2 stage.

 

[doodle]

Just the stress of moving can cause ulcers. Soli moved yards, still with me and moved with, stabled with and turnout with his same field mate.

 

[bubsqueaks]

You have my sympathy as could have written very similar story myself.
3 months after purchasing ours bronked - scoped & showed glandular ulcers - years treatment - ulcers present again - turned away 15 months ulcers now clear - have little doubt ulcers caused on journey over from Ireland as terrible traveller too - exacerbated by terrible K&M new saddle bridging back - & yes he did crib slightly & had massive facial pain expressions.
Youre doing everything you can now so Im sure you will get to the bottom of things - hes lucky to have you but no you cant look back & blame the seller, its just a very very steep lesson in life - we know we've been on it for 3 years now! Good luck.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

My horse came having been ridden in a pretty rubbish saddle for a long time. He showed signs of ulcers by being a nightmare to tack up - didn't see a sign of it when I tried him. He was scoped and vet said she thought he'd had ulcers for years judging by the scarring. I've had him 6 months now - I just accepted that the ulcers had been down to a badly fitting saddle and exacerbated by various things. You can't predict how a horse will be moving house, or with a new saddle that they don't like or whatever.

And your horse may have been exactly as the seller described in their yard. I always think a horse that has come from a big yard to a one horse owner changes quite dramatically because as a one horse owner, you pick up on a lot more than they would.

I think a huge amount of horses have ulcers and their behaviour is just brushed off.

 

[skint1]

I bought my horse at the end of October, when I bought her she sailed through a 2 stage vetting and I tried her twice in school and out hacking and she was quiet, unbothered by my nerves and very tolerant of my less than stellar riding. Upon getting her home first person to see her was the farrire, then saddler, then the physio, who did find some stuff to work on but nothing awful.

I rode her quite a bit in the first few weeks (in line with physio advice) and again she was quiet and didn't put a foot wrong, but she wasn't putting on the condition I would have expected given that she had ad-lib haylage and good turn out during the day and I just felt something was not right with her, she tossed her head a lot and swished her tail when ridden which worried me. She was getting increasingly narky with people over her stable door (though not with me) and she was getting really narky to tack up and would not stand for me at the mounting block, not helped by the fact that I am short and slow and she is very large and business-like! She was regularly seen by saddler and physio in this time and no additional issues noted

So, I got the vet to check her over and on their reccomendation we got her scoped and also treated for tapeworms. She had stage 2-3 ulcers, which we spent 6 weeks treating. She is now feeling very well indeed, and looking pretty good too, she is much more relaxed with people around her stable- but as a ridden partnership, sadly, she has proven to be too much for me, she is just so forward going, she has a busy brain and is very responsive and also very large- not an ideal horse for a not very confident, still quite novicey at times rider who just wants to poodle about the countryside. She was when I bought her, but not now.

I am absolutely gutted because I love her and we have a great relationshiip on the ground, but I know when I am overhorsed and the leap is too big for me to make. Right now, she has no ridden or stable vices, I want to keep her that way hence my decision.

I don't blame the sellers, you can't predict how a horse will change with a different owner in a different place and I don't regret investigating and treating her for these things even though it has resulted in her being just too forward going for me. I hope now to find her a great home where she can be ffully appreciated for herself and that somewhere out there there is a horse for me. So the moral of this long, rambly story is, you can never tell with horses how things will turn out, it doesn't always mean you were misled by the seller,

 

[SEL]

Did the behaviour get worse after you got a new saddle? While I think scoping is a good idea perhaps your new saddle doesn't fit?

I have a very expensive saddle gathering dust. Fitted to my horse, checked and re-checked. She hates it.

 

[AUB]

So the horse was a known cribber, which is typically a sign of some sort of pain management. That ulcers can flare up when a horse is stressed is well known. The horse has moved yards, is in a new herd, is probably fed differently, has a new rider, is introduced to work he hasn't done before etc... Also you've done quite a lot with him shortly after the purchase. The vet said at the vetting that he was very anxious, so even though he's experienced and had been easy, he is probably a sensitive soul. All of this combined can definitely cause ulcers, so you will probably have a difficult time proving that the problem was already there at the time of purchase. I think you just need to move forward and have him scoped and treated. Hopefully you will again be able to enjoy him as it seems you did for the first period, and maybe it will even be good for you as a combination that you will have to spend some time with him from the ground and just groom and cuddle.

Also, horses often change behaviour when moved even if there is no medical reason for it. I've known my mare for years, she's never had seperation anxiety at all. Then we moved to our current yard and for some reason she's developed seperation anxiety. Can't figure out why, but I can forget about grooming, saddling, have her stand for the farrier and so on without bringing in another horse. We've been there for 2 years now, so it's not just a phase. It's weird but it's just one of those things when having horses...

 

[sportsmansB]

Can you find out from the dealer exactly how they managed him (without appearing to blame them for the changes)? It sounds like he was as well as could be expected there, and if you treated the flared up ulcers and reverted to a similar system that they used, combined with a saddle which fits, you could be onto a winner.
Given that you had a few great months with him I doubt having bloods taken would have made a difference.
Its most likely that the changes in his life have upset him internally more than maybe they would upset another horse (they are all different!) and you just need to get a handle on it.
As AE says, the 'standard' management doesn't work for all, so finding out what actually did work for him is key. Perhaps they had methods of significantly reducing his cribbing which benefitted him? Or conversely, maybe they just let him tear away at it which kept him happy? Ask and find out.. Good luck

 

[EquineHOSS]

My horse came having been ridden in a pretty rubbish saddle for a long time. He showed signs of ulcers by being a nightmare to tack up - didn't see a sign of it when I tried him. He was scoped and vet said she thought he'd had ulcers for years judging by the scarring. I've had him 6 months now - I just accepted that the ulcers had been down to a badly fitting saddle and exacerbated by various things. You can't predict how a horse will be moving house, or with a new saddle that they don't like or whatever.

And your horse may have been exactly as the seller described in their yard. I always think a horse that has come from a big yard to a one horse owner changes quite dramatically because as a one horse owner, you pick up on a lot more than they would.

I think a huge amount of horses have ulcers and their behaviour is just brushed off.

sounds so much like mine!
I don’t mean to bash seller at all, she has been great but I just can’t figure him out.
Have made new post with vet report.

 

[EquineHOSS]

So the horse was a known cribber, which is typically a sign of some sort of pain management. That ulcers can flare up when a horse is stressed is well known. The horse has moved yards, is in a new herd, is probably fed differently, has a new rider, is introduced to work he hasn't done before etc... Also you've done quite a lot with him shortly after the purchase. The vet said at the vetting that he was very anxious, so even though he's experienced and had been easy, he is probably a sensitive soul. All of this combined can definitely cause ulcers, so you will probably have a difficult time proving that the problem was already there at the time of purchase. I think you just need to move forward and have him scoped and treated. Hopefully you will again be able to enjoy him as it seems you did for the first period, and maybe it will even be good for you as a combination that you will have to spend some time with him from the ground and just groom and cuddle.

Also, horses often change behaviour when moved even if there is no medical reason for it. I've known my mare for years, she's never had seperation anxiety at all. Then we moved to our current yard and for some reason she's developed seperation anxiety. Can't figure out why, but I can forget about grooming, saddling, have her stand for the farrier and so on without bringing in another horse. We've been there for 2 years now, so it's not just a phase. It's weird but it's just one of those things when having horses...

thanks for your post! Really appreciate it.
Have posted a new updated regarding vets report.
Definitely a sensitive soul