Spanish Walk or Piaffe First?

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Celtic Fringe

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What is the normal training sequence and why? Some expert insight would be useful :)

My little cob's trainer is contemplating teaching him Spanish walk. Her normal training sequence is Spanish walk to help improve medium/extended trot. Piaffe and passage then come later when the horse is ready to collect. However, someone else I know recommends that piaffe should be taught first. I will unpick the reasons for each persons choice with them but if someone can give me a rational explanation first that would be very helpful :)
 
Am no expert, but I'm going Spanish walk first then more complicated things. It might be a trick, but it's keeping him interested while on minimal movement because of an abcess.

The initial leg raise took 2-3 days for him to get with me trying to do it in short 10 minute bursts. Am now working on getting specific legs raised on command while standing then with movement (he will generally come on command).
 
Spanish walk is a trick - and often taught from the ground. The problem comes if you try to teach Spanish walk before the musculature is sufficiently developed. If the top line and back muscles are not sufficient the horse will learn the trick by pushing upward with the abdominal muscles rather than supporting the core with the back - like us learning to do a sit up without the correct technique or core strength.

If they learn an incorrect way of supporting themselves you will have an devil of a time helping them to unlearn it. I have no issue with teaching Spanish walk - and have done myself for several ponies needing tricks to keep themselves and their brains amused. As I teach touch or please. I have eventers not high level dressage horses - but for me I would hesitate to teach a trick like that to a horse in the early stages intended to develop the correct frame for dressage.
 
Shay said:
Spanish walk is a trick - and often taught from the ground. The problem comes if you try to teach Spanish walk before the musculature is sufficiently developed. If the top line and back muscles are not sufficient the horse will learn the trick by pushing upward with the abdominal muscles rather than supporting the core with the back - like us learning to do a sit up without the correct technique or core strength.

If they learn an incorrect way of supporting themselves you will have an devil of a time helping them to unlearn it. I have no issue with teaching Spanish walk - and have done myself for several ponies needing tricks to keep themselves and their brains amused. As I teach touch or please. I have eventers not high level dressage horses - but for me I would hesitate to teach a trick like that to a horse in the early stages intended to develop the correct frame for dressage.
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The cob has been on schooling livery with a Grand Prix rider since last summer and has been brought on very carefully. He is not taught anything until he is absolutely ready both physically and mentally. I am also 100% confident that he will be taught Spanish Walk correctly if the trainer decides to go ahead - and in very short sessions. He already does one or two sessions of in-hand schooling each week to mix up his ridden schooling and hacking. I will also ask the trainers in question but I'm interested in why this might be a good training 'trick' before working on collected paces.
 
my opinion is that spanish walk is a natural thing for a horse to do, so i would think your trainer is absolutely right.


whether piaffe comes before passage may be according to an individual horse`s tendences.
 
All I can think is that Spanish walk helps to stretch and mobilise the muscles and joints of the shoulder and forelimb and so is a useful gymnastic exercise that may assist the horse when lengthening its stride in the trot. It does not require the same strength or physical conditioning as the piaffe, which requires the horse to take more weight behind. Therefore I would happily teach Spanish walk to my horse (and have) before piaffe as he is not yet strong enough behind to work on piaffe. But I am a leisure rider so what do I know?!!
 
Celtic Fringe said:
OK - but the point is that the Spanish walk may improve his trot work so it is a potentially useful trick.
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Why don't any International winning level dressage trainers use it? Genuine question. I have always wondered whether it is actually good for the horse when I see it.
 
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GirlFriday said:
Piaffe is a trick. It happens to be one on the list that gets you dressage marks. But it is no more or less a trick than Spanish walk - unless you can explain any other difference?
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I've seen most of my horses piaffe a few steps loose in the field. I've never seen one Spanish walk or anything even remotely like it.

I've never taught it. I got part way with one horse (who was a natural at piaffe) but I thought it put a horrible strain on the back.
 
My trainer taught one horse Spanish walk but has said she would not teach it again, it encourages the horse to hollow its back so tends to undo all the work you've put in to get the horse working correctly over the back.
 
little_critter said:
My trainer taught one horse Spanish walk but has said she would not teach it again, it encourages the horse to hollow its back so tends to undo all the work you've put in to get the horse working correctly over the back.
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That's exactly the feeling I got with mine. He was long backed anyway, which of course the Iberian horses aren't, and he dropped his back as he lengthened his foreleg reach. Not what I wanted at all!
 
ycbm said:
I've seen most of my horses piaffe a few steps loose in the field. I've never seen one Spanish walk or anything even remotely like it.

I've never taught it. I got part way with one horse (who was a natural at piaffe) but I thought it put a horrible strain on the back.
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You've never seen a horse strike out it's forelegs in play or aggression towards another horse or dog?
 
stencilface said:
You've never seen a horse strike out it's forelegs in play or aggression towards another horse or dog?
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Yes of course I have. But I have never seen them follow that with the other foreleg while taking a rythmic walk step, never mind stringing three or four together. I would not define the walk as natural to a horse, just the one leg foreleg strike.

I've seen several steps of every GP movement loose in the field, I've even had a horse get the dressage comment 'lovely one time changes unfortunately not required at Novice level' :)

But I've never seen even two steps of Spanish walk.
 
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GirlFriday said:
Piaffe is a trick. It happens to be one on the list that gets you dressage marks. But it is no more or less a trick than Spanish walk - unless you can explain any other difference?
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You can teach piaffe as a trick, but that's why you see many incorrect piaffes- triangulating, swaying, hindlegs barely lifting off the floor. A correct piaffe happens because you very gradually transfer the weight onto the hindlegs so they can come under the body and support a truly raised forehand. It is the pinnacle of GP dressage training (and classically leads into the airs above the ground)
 
I'm not sure about any rationale behind piaffe of Spanish walk first (I'm not sure I believe that training works in such a linear fashion anyway), but I have seen Spanish walk used to increase the lift and movement of the front end in horses that are very front end heavy, with a big shoulder and short back. With that kind on conformation you can have the back end struggling to get motoring because the giant shoulder blocking the movement up front. Horses like that are often 'on the forehand' even though they don't look downhill, and you need to generate more quickness and a better action through the shoulder in order to be able to let the back end power through.
 
Spanish Walk is a very useful "gateway" exercise to all of the High School movements, and one which comes very naturally to most Spanish horses (and cobs, for some odd reason), it is no less a trick nor less natural than a piaffe the way it now is performed for modern dressage. It does not require collection and so is easy to introduce early on in the horses training, unlike the piaffe and passage which need great strength and balance. Spanish Walk is very effective at opening up the shoulder, creating expression and is a useful tool for improving the passage later on. It also teaches the horse to wait for the aids, separate the signals for each leg and listen to the riders subtle aids.

As far as various movements being "natural", I've never seen horses at liberty performing lines of one time flying changes, half passes or courbettes either. I think the snobbishness about Spanish Walk began at the Spanish Riding School, where they do not practise it
 
ycbm said:
Why don't any International winning level dressage trainers use it? Genuine question. I have always wondered whether it is actually good for the horse when I see it.
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My cob's trainer does compete internationally. I'm now wondering if I've given away their 'secret' training technique! As others have said although Spanish walk is not required in a test it can be a useful aid for loosening the shoulders and thus helping trot work so I think that is why they teach it to most of the horses that they train. I'm not expecting my little cob to become a grand prix horse but he is coming on leaps and bounds with his flatwork and is happily learning all the stuff that the 'proper' dressage horses do!
 
Cortez said:
Spanish Walk is a very useful "gateway" exercise to all of the High School movements, and one which comes very naturally to most Spanish horses (and cobs, for some odd reason), it is no less a trick nor less natural than a piaffe the way it now is performed for modern dressage. It does not require collection and so is easy to introduce early on in the horses training, unlike the piaffe and passage which need great strength and balance. Spanish Walk is very effective at opening up the shoulder, creating expression and is a useful tool for improving the passage later on. It also teaches the horse to wait for the aids, separate the signals for each leg and listen to the riders subtle aids.

As far as various movements being "natural", I've never seen horses at liberty performing lines of one time flying changes, half passes or courbettes either. I think the snobbishness about Spanish Walk began at the Spanish Riding School, where they do not practise it
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Thank-you :) What a great explanation - I think this is exactly what my trainer (rider) is aiming for (I will discuss with them too), I just couldn't find the words to express it clearly myself. My little cob has a massive trot in the field/free schooling/lunging but it would be great if he could produce it under saddle when asked too and I guess the Spanish walk might help with this. The point about aids is also very relevant as my trainer has been working on getting him to wait for more subtle direction rather than 'just' forwards or sideways.

He is doing amazingly for a short hairy beast. I moved him to his current yard when I had to stop riding due to arthritis. My aim was for a very well schooled pony with a good all round education but he is turning out to have an unexpected talent for dressage and his trainer is enjoying bringing him on.
 
GirlFriday said:
Piaffe is a trick. It happens to be one on the list that gets you dressage marks. But it is no more or less a trick than Spanish walk - unless you can explain any other difference?
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Not sure it is a trick, daughter's mare does it on the spot when hacking (and some nasty car gets close or a leaf falls off the tree or something equally scary), has definitely never been trained to do it.
 
My grumpacob does both Spanish stamp and half steps of piaffe-lite when she's having a strop about being asked to halt. :lol: slowly managing to teach that just halting is easier. :lol: I suspect collecting and lifting the front end is going to come more naturally to her than going sideways... but she'll have to learn sideways to develop the strength for proper collecting....

It's all circular really isn't it? Each movement improves the other which in turn improves the first. Spanish walk frees the shoulders which allows the back end under which improves the ability to free the shoulders etc. It depends on the horse which angle you come at stuff from. Some horses might need a higher degree of collection before being able to lift the front legs correctly and without strain other horses may be better set up in their conformation to start correct Spanish walk before working on greater collection... and freeing the shoulders a bit first might unstick a block to collection for that horse. The other thing about Spanish walk is that many horses seem to find it hugely fun and it may help inject a bit of joy and expression into their work generally.
 
Cortez said:
Spanish Walk is a very useful "gateway" exercise to all of the High School movements, and one which comes very naturally to most Spanish horses (and cobs, for some odd reason), it is no less a trick nor less natural than a piaffe the way it now is performed for modern dressage. It does not require collection and so is easy to introduce early on in the horses training, unlike the piaffe and passage which need great strength and balance. Spanish Walk is very effective at opening up the shoulder, creating expression and is a useful tool for improving the passage later on. It also teaches the horse to wait for the aids, separate the signals for each leg and listen to the riders subtle aids.

As far as various movements being "natural", I've never seen horses at liberty performing lines of one time flying changes, half passes or courbettes either. I think the snobbishness about Spanish Walk began at the Spanish Riding School, where they do not practise it
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As always from Cortez an easy to understand and interesting answer.

The comment re the cobs finding it easy is really interesting. My Shire x will offer his take on Piaffe as soon as he gets stressy, excited or is finding something difficult to understand. He finds 'sitting' really easy and we have to be very careful to encourage him forwards (he is only 6) when he starts to collect without being asked.

The other young horse RID x cob showed us a very impressive Spanish Walk from age 4 on the long line and then on the lunge. Totally temper induced and she could keep it going for quite a distance with equal steps. I laughed initially but soon changed my mind as it quickly became her 'go to' for anything she didn't find easy. I made the mistake of halting her when she did it, that annoyed her and on 2 occasions she got down to roll. I changed tactics and pushed her forwards. She grew out of it gradually and now 6 rarely shows it.
 
TheMule said:
Spanish walk is a trick, piaffe is a pinnacle of training
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Piaffe is not the pinnacle of training, it is, in effect, an intermediary step only to pesade and levade. The fact that it is trained to be the *pinnacle* is why there are so many poor piaffes performed during GP tests.
 
Casey76 said:
Piaffe is not the pinnacle of training, it is, in effect, an intermediary step only to pesade and levade. The fact that it is trained to be the *pinnacle* is why there are so many poor piaffes performed during GP tests.
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As I stated in my later post, but for mostwithin the competitive dressage world (and for most classical riders too) it is the pinnacle- most people don't want airs above the ground
 
If they surrounded the dressage ring with a herd of dairy cows, my Shire X would get high scores for her passage-piaffe work and be attracting the interest of the Spanish riding school for her excellent levades and terre a terre.
 
ycbm said:
I've seen most of my horses piaffe a few steps loose in the field. I've never seen one Spanish walk or anything even remotely like it.

.
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Now that you have an Appaloosa you may well see one doing Spanish Walk naturally! To say nothing of airs above the ground:D
 
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Caol Ila said:
If they surrounded the dressage ring with a herd of dairy cows, my Shire X would get high scores for her passage-piaffe work and be attracting the interest of the Spanish riding school for her excellent levades and terre a terre.
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:lol: :lol: If someone could organise a lorry passing too close my mare could show off a lovely courbette.
 
ycbm said:
I've never seen one Spanish walk or anything even remotely like it.
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I have a little NF stallion who routinely spanish walks up to 7 or 8 paces when he is reintroduced to his friends. It's his way of showing off, just as my little Dartmoor stallion piaffes. Can I get either one to do it under saddle... can I 'eck.
 
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