Spaying - but one for anyone with vet/behaviour experience

[danhappy]

Right, Amber is booked in for her spay next friday. However, after talking to two behaviourists (one which my vets deal with) it has been suggested I shouldnt (not advised as they cant do this) because it may make her dog aggression worse.

Does anyone have any experience in this kind of thing? I found an article by James O'Heare which supports this

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/medical/neuter.shtml

I wanted one of them done before Ambers next season. We have half sorted out arrangements for Dante to go to a friends (we cant get him neutered either a) he's not mature enough yet, he needs to be cocking his leg for at least one month first and he doesnt, also he's hitting puperty and we'll mess his hormones up and b) he already has low confidence and chopping his man bits wont help him at all.)

Your views please! Both behaviorists are very reputable.

 

[gemmaw]

What sort of aggression does she show, is it towards all other dogs or in certain circumstances?

 

[danhappy]

All other dogs, I am following the behaviorists advice until mid Dec when she can see me once I have got the vet referral paperwork sorted out.

Basically for now I have to stop them playfighting so much, and keep a happy calm house! Not allowed to walk Amber unless I can guarantee I wont see other dogs for the time being too, and not to walk my two together.

Better than the last lot of advice I got from my last behaviourist, she was recommending I alpha roll a 37kg Malamute!

 

[gemmaw]

aaahhhh!! not the easiest thing to do i can imagine!!

spaying usually has a calming effect more than anything, really depends on why she's agressive to start with. If its a dominating issue then yes spaying can help, the top bitch is the one who breeds, hence the hormone balance changes when they cant breed which allows them to be more passive towards other dogs. What does she do when you meet other dogs out??

 

[danhappy]

She lunges and barks and growls and gets herself all worked up. The behaviourists say it sounds like she wants to play, but goes so over the tops that if she could she would probably flattent the other poor dog and then remember she only wanted to play. It has also been suggested she is a very confident bitch (she cocks her leg to pee sometimes and always kicks out behind her, in season she also did most of the attempted humping)

Shes 2 years old, had two seasons and we have had her six months so we dont know her history other than she possibly wasnt well socialised.

 

[gemmaw]

have you tried taking her to a professional trainer who can see first hand what she is like? it does sound like she's approaching to play but doesnt quite know how. One of the really important things if you do take her anywhere like that and she does quieten down and approach the other dogs is done let any of them jump on her or try to dominate her. If she's just starting out socialising now it wont take much to make her aggressive, you dont want the risk of that. Where abouts are you? We're in Staffs, if you are close enough we could look at doing a private session. When you approach any other dogs how do you react? If you've got in the habit of wrestling her away you will probably make her worse, try taking treats or her favourite toy and coaxing her away, if she wont come then pull her but then reward her really quickly with the treat. She'll soon learn that if she leaves the other dogs alone she gets good things which will help you when you do finally introduce her to other dogs

 

[danhappy]

We have tried most of that but once she sees another dog she doesnt listen to anything. The last behaviourist I saw told me to use a slip lead and correct her at any slight interest in another dog, and practise the whole dominance thing ALL THE TIME, it felt like I was bullying her, the result...... she started snapping at people.

Im down in Dorset - thank you for the kind offer

 

[danhappy]

Sorry to answer you more fully, when I see another dog I remain as calm as possible, and just try to keep her in a heel, I dont make a big deal out of it.

This is a link to how she behaves on a dogmatic, she isnt in heel as I could hold the camera properly and I was only just starting to train her to it.

http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd229/danhappy/?action=view&current=Amber-1.flv

 

[gemmaw]

You've got a real toughie there!! Dont know that spaying her will help you, you need to find out if there is agression or playfulness but without anybody getting hurt, how is she with a halti?? might be worth a try if she's good in it to find somebody who you know with a placid dog and let them introduce, at least with a halti you've got hold of her mouth just in case, even a muzzle mabe for the first time although that might defeat the object in the long run, might be a good starting point. We have quite a few in training and you can pretty much tell by the first 10 minutes if its going to be a mixing dog or not. She will probably relax more when she's allowed to meet other dogs so i'd give the muzzle a think, as long as you're on neutral ground though like the park not either dogs home you should see her true colours. I hope you get her sorted, we've got a big collie bitch who isnt nasty but if any dog challeges her she will nail it well and truly, not seen a bitch fight like her before! you do learn to live with it but its so much nicer when you can let them off and not worry!!

 

[danhappy]

Unfortunately I have had her with a muzzle and slip lead on walking next to a sameyod (sp) with the last behaviorist and she kept going for it suddenly, mainly its back

Just leaves me with this spaying issue... I spoke to the vet and he gave me the medical side, and the behaviourists are giving their side, unfortunately the two dont match! I just dont want to make her worse. (Now Ive stopped the whole dominance bullying she hasnt snapped at any people either.)

 

[Onyxia]

IME, spaying calms them down a lot.
Having said that, I am not a proffesional,thats just form my personal experiance.

Good luck whatever you decide to do, never easy when you dont know what to do for the best.

 

[CAYLA]

It is pretty common for dogs to act this way towards others when restricted by the leash. even the most well behaved and wellsocialised dogs.....when given a chance to play freely in a controlled environment....u would see in the larger majority of situations that the dog in question interacts in play.
All of our rescues bar none are introduced to the established pack ASAP.....for instance...if amber where in our rescue.....after a few days of settling in ....she would be out with the calmer adult dogs whilst supervised.....u will generally get a dog trying to push its luck at first and we step in to correct it...u can guarantee that after 20 minutes its found a suitable play mate and they never look back......the malanute we have in now was the same.....now she is great.
I think she definatley needs to have a chance to meet dogs in a controlled environment for some free play.

Speying a female does not generally make a difference in regard to agression in the same way it does with a dog...however I can reasure u it will in no way make her more agressive/or alter her behaviour.....looking at your video...I have seen far worse than that in dog behaviour......my own Akita was far worse than that when I first got her....she has now mixed freely with a multitude of dogs and its become the norm to her......the longer u keep dogs isolated from others the worse they become in regard to their behaviour towards others.

If she was mine I would definatley go ahead and spay....and try to get her in an environment where she can mix with other dogs...if I lived near u...I would not hesitate to bring my lot over to u

 

[danhappy]

Thank you for your reply Cala, I wish I could meet up with someone like you who has had some experience in this field! Got a feeling Im going to end up forking out a small fortune in behaviourists instead.

Unfortunately I had already cancelled the spaying before I read your post, however plans are already in motion to get her the injection to stop of having her season this time round, and hopefully we can get her spayed before her season after that... at least I wont have to worry about unwanted pregnancies this time!

I will be getting her spayed eventually, at least if I can go through this one I would of seen the behaviorist by then.

Although one good thing, just taken Dante out on his own in the fields by us and he's still fine round other dogs, he was on an extendable (his recall is useless but I am working on it) but he was just quite happily bouncing around with 5 Red Setters

Means he hasnt picked any bad habits of Amber yet.

 

[CAYLA]

Is it just the problem with other dogs u are having? and has she ever had any free play or are u a little hesitant to let her or for that matter...find anyone brave enough...lol

 

[danhappy]

Very hesitant to do it, Ive seen a couple of people who have a few years experience with dogs i.e. breed them etc, and they said it looks like she wants to eat them! (their dog that is, not them

) But it all could still be a big front.

It seems to be all other dogs (apart from Dante, she's fine with him) apparently she's okay with her own (malamutes, huskys etc) but Ive never come across any.

 

[CAYLA]

LOL....I totally understand.....people often comment on how mad I am letting my dogs together for the first ime and how we let them run together....ask BUCKYBEE she has seen the proof....alot of it is in the confidence....Im pretty confident esp with my own dogs in regar to introducing new dogs in...thats why its always best to introduce them to calm well behaved dogs that can be controlled if a situation arises.....u would be suprsed at how many dogs that look like they are going to eat another actually react really well with others after the initial meet....where did u say u lived again

 

[danhappy]

Down in Dorset, I still think its hard to tell with her, but Ive never had the guts to let her off. Its also hard as I cant see her face myself so I cant tell if she's bearing teeth, its mostly just woofs and more frustrated growls.

I think the confidence thing is part of Amber, she is very confident (I think she thinks she's a bloke too!)

I think if I ever did do it I'd have my eyes shut!

Its hard as you will know when you dont know their full history either.

 

[Onyxia]

Have you thought about training classes with her?
I think Cala is spot on about her needing to learn how to interact with other dogs in the corect way(you can just see her ego growing cant you?

).
I'm sure if you call around and explain a bit about her you can find a class that will help.
One of childhood GSD's was similar to Amber at first, training classes really helped him no end-only stipulation was that untill the trainer trusted his behaviour he wore a muzzle for the other dogs safty.
Wont do any harm and will be a lot cheaper then one on one with a behaviourist.

 

[wireweiners]

We had an interesting discussion about this on another dog forum I belong to. I don't think spaying her will increase her agression, I would go ahead and do it. If anything, it will calm her down. Since males and females hardly fight, could you possible try allowing her to play with a somewhat laid back male of a size similar to hers?

As far as your male dog, I don't think I would neuter at all unless he becomes agressive or you can't control his leg lifting. There aren't as many medical reasons to neuter a dog as there is to spay a bitch. Neutering does not decrease prostate cancer in dogs and there is some evidence that it may increase it.