Speaking as an owner

bonny

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Been reading all the grand national threads and thought I would add my own experience as I was in the position of having a horse killed in a field who I replaced with a horse who was killed racing....which one did I feel guilty about ? That's easy, the horse that broke a leg in the field, catastrophic broken hind leg in a horse turned out for the summer, she was not discovered until nearly dead from shock and blood loss and had a horific death. The replacement horse broke a shoulder on the flat between jumps and was dead within 5 minutes. I missed them both but felt guilty about only one ........
They were both bred to race and both rescues, sometimes it's a cruel world
 

Moomin1

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Been reading all the grand national threads and thought I would add my own experience as I was in the position of having a horse killed in a field who I replaced with a horse who was killed racing....which one did I feel guilty about ? That's easy, the horse that broke a leg in the field, catastrophic broken hind leg in a horse turned out for the summer, she was not discovered until nearly dead from shock and blood loss and had a horific death. The replacement horse broke a shoulder on the flat between jumps and was dead within 5 minutes. I missed them both but felt guilty about only one ........
They were both bred to race and both rescues, sometimes it's a cruel world

Very sorry to hear of your losses. It must have been heartbreaking for you.

I do feel that IMO one of those deaths is almost entirely unavoidable in a reasonable world (ie turning a horse out to pasture which is a near natural life) whereas the other is an imposed risk. Very much similar to a child getting hurt running in a playground of it's own accord, or a child injured being made to perform high level gymnastics ( for example), at the parent's pushiness.
 

JosieB

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I would feel guilty at not finding the one in the field earlier and even more guilty about making a horse race which was then killed.
 

bonny

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I would feel guilty at not finding the one in the field earlier and even more guilty about making a horse race which was then killed.

However often you check your horses there will be hours when no one sees them, just really bad timing in truth but that didn't stop me feeling guilty about what happened to her. The horse that was killed racing had a very rare inury, in fact they both did...having horses, especially tb's means things will go wrong, sometimes with a terrible outcome.
 

Moomin1

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However often you check your horses there will be hours when no one sees them, just really bad timing in truth but that didn't stop me feeling guilty about what happened to her. The horse that was killed racing had a very rare inury, in fact they both did...having horses, especially tb's means things will go wrong, sometimes with a terrible outcome.

True, horses are large animals with a risk of major injury. But with regard TB's in particular - we have bred them over the years to such an extent that they are more injury prone.
 

JosieB

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You are right, i check mine twice a day however if one was injured after i left then it would not be until morning that i would find it.
I cannot understand though how there are no regrets or guilt at all at the racer dying simply because it was pts quickly.
 

bonny

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You are right, i check mine twice a day however if one was injured after i left then it would not be until morning that i would find it.
I cannot understand though how there are no regrets or guilt at all at the racer dying simply because it was pts quickly.

I didn't say no regrets, I said I didn't feel guilty. It was a freak injury which happened on the flat not jumping. I had rescued him, he was my horse of a lifetime and I was suicidal at the time but I wanted to race him, he wanted to race and sometimes things just go wrong.....that was the point I was trying to make.
 

Moomin1

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I didn't say no regrets, I said I didn't feel guilty. It was a freak injury which happened on the flat not jumping. I had rescued him, he was my horse of a lifetime and I was suicidal at the time but I wanted to race him, he wanted to race and sometimes things just go wrong.....that was the point I was trying to make.

Bonny, excuse me if this sounds like I am being sarcastic or nasty - it really isn't meant to be - I just am asking out of pure interest. But how do you know he WANTED to race?
 

Ladydragon

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which one did I feel guilty about ? That's easy, the horse that broke a leg in the field, catastrophic broken hind leg in a horse turned out for the summer, she was not discovered until nearly dead from shock and blood loss and had a horific death. The replacement horse broke a shoulder on the flat between jumps and was dead within 5 minutes. I missed them both but felt guilty about only one ........

Horrible situation...:(

But you're determining guilt based on type of death, rather than causation... I'd have felt guilty about both - although less guilty about the 'how' for the field injury and more because I'd not been there - an emotional guilt though rather than one with any foundation...

Horses aren't companion pets like dogs or cats so it's understandable that we go hours without seeing them and that injuries or illness occur when we're not around... I was lucky with the timing when my filly developed a gut torsion - half an hour later and she'd have had a more traumatic death, without my intervention... I'll always be grateful that I could act for her but it certainly didn't 'lessen' the sense of bereavement...
 

bonny

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Bonny, excuse me if this sounds like I am being sarcastic or nasty - it really isn't meant to be - I just am asking out of pure interest. But how do you know he WANTED to race?

It's just my opinion I suppose, I couldn't ask him what he wanted to do with his life ! He was a front runner and very good, possibily could have gone on to be brilliant. The best racehorses are the one's that seem to want to do it, the slow ones at the back are often the one's who probably would prefer not to. He was a long way in the lead when he died, no one made him run like that....
 

Moomin1

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It's just my opinion I suppose, I couldn't ask him what he wanted to do with his life ! He was a front runner and very good, possibily could have gone on to be brilliant. The best racehorses are the one's that seem to want to do it, the slow ones at the back are often the one's who probably would prefer not to. He was a long way in the lead when he died, no one made him run like that....

Fair enough. I am not trying to be horrible or anything - just curious.

I can also imagine how horrible it must have been for you to lose both horses.

Speaking as someone who knows of no statistics as such but has an opinion on NH racing in particular, can I ask you whether in your opinion you feel there is too much pressure placed on the horses running the GN due to the course or other factors?

Just interested in whether there are pro-racing peeps out there who feel that the National needs to change/stop.
 

bonny

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Fair enough. I am not trying to be horrible or anything - just curious.

I can also imagine how horrible it must have been for you to lose both horses.

Speaking as someone who knows of no statistics as such but has an opinion on NH racing in particular, can I ask you whether in your opinion you feel there is too much pressure placed on the horses running the GN due to the course or other factors?

Just interested in whether there are pro-racing peeps out there who feel that the National needs to change/stop.

I honestly don't know the answer to that but I would say that this years GN and last years I hated watching and I never thought I would say that about any race. I accept there are risks but I think the race has had it's day and maybe it's time it ended. It's also becoming a PR disaster which jump racing can ill afford to have. I struggle to justify so many deaths and I've been involved in racing for a long time.
 

Moomin1

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I honestly don't know the answer to that but I would say that this years GN and last years I hated watching and I never thought I would say that about any race. I accept there are risks but I think the race has had it's day and maybe it's time it ended. It's also becoming a PR disaster which jump racing can ill afford to have. I struggle to justify so many deaths and I've been involved in racing for a long time.

I tend to agree with that. My OH loves NH racing and in particular the National, but he was very sad with what happened this year.

I do think that if the GN was reduced in field size (not sure if this would be feasible as I am not at all knowledgeable on racing!) then maybe there would be a slight improvement.

I do agree with you OP that people are wrong if they say ALL racehorse owners/trainers don't care etc - I don't think that's the case at all - and I am not pro racing.

Again, sorry for your losses and I wish you all the best with your geegees in the future! :)
 

bonny

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I tend to agree with that. My OH loves NH racing and in particular the National, but he was very sad with what happened this year.

I do think that if the GN was reduced in field size (not sure if this would be feasible as I am not at all knowledgeable on racing!) then maybe there would be a slight improvement.

I do agree with you OP that people are wrong if they say ALL racehorse owners/trainers don't care etc - I don't think that's the case at all - and I am not pro racing.

Again, sorry for your losses and I wish you all the best with your geegees in the future! :)

I would go so far as to say that all trainers and owners care, certainly everybody I've ever met connected with jump racing does, I think flat racing is more commercial and the horses come and go and alot of them are unloved by their connections.
I think the grand national can't really be changed anymore and still be the same race. By lowering the jumps and cutting the numbers down it would be the same as any other staying handicap. I'm also not convinced that it's much more dangerous than other chases it just attracts alot more publicity, especially this year. I found last years race much more uncomfortable to watch but no high profile horses were killed.
ing
 

labruyere

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my 2 pennies worth
(will duck behind wall on hitting submit)

i think this is a case of he who is without sin, throw first

i suppose none of the people who think the original poster is heartless for 'making' her horse race
ever jump their horses, take them XC, hunt them, ride them on the roads
- all of which could be argued as forcing the horse to take an unnecessary risk of injury

be v wary of accusing someone of forcing their horse to do something
unless you find you're being accused of the v same thing by some 'animal rights' person the next time you pop out for a gentle hack

i assume most people posting here at the v least ride horses, if they don't own them
i therefore find it astounding that people are being accused of making horses do anything, as we all know most horses are more than capable of making their views known should anyone attempt this.
(in today's world, any sign of genuinely forcing a horse to do something, quite rightly, ends up with the perpetrator being hauled up in front of the stewards/judge/animal charities)

if you don't think horses love galloping round with a bunch of other horses i assume you can only all be on livery yards where horses live in their natural state of being stabled with some individual turnout if they're lucky

perhaps you all ride v strange horses but if all of the others gallop off together
i don't generally find my problem is making 'mine' join in
- somewhat the contrary

i suppose some horses 'love' being left for months on end stuck in the same field and overfed to the point of permanent injury or cardiac attack
-strange how these types of 'loving' owners always seem to escape any criticism
 

Ladydragon

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my 2 pennies worth
(will duck behind wall on hitting submit)

i think this is a case of he who is without sin, throw first

i suppose none of the people who think the original poster is heartless for 'making' her horse race
ever jump their horses, take them XC, hunt them, ride them on the roads
- all of which could be argued as forcing the horse to take an unnecessary risk of injury

Um... I've not seen any such suggestion in the thread :confused:
 

Moomin1

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my 2 pennies worth
(will duck behind wall on hitting submit)

i think this is a case of he who is without sin, throw first

i suppose none of the people who think the original poster is heartless for 'making' her horse race
ever jump their horses, take them XC, hunt them, ride them on the roads
- all of which could be argued as forcing the horse to take an unnecessary risk of injury

be v wary of accusing someone of forcing their horse to do something
unless you find you're being accused of the v same thing by some 'animal rights' person the next time you pop out for a gentle hack

i assume most people posting here at the v least ride horses, if they don't own them
i therefore find it astounding that people are being accused of making horses do anything, as we all know most horses are more than capable of making their views known should anyone attempt this.
(in today's world, any sign of genuinely forcing a horse to do something, quite rightly, ends up with the perpetrator being hauled up in front of the stewards/judge/animal charities)

if you don't think horses love galloping round with a bunch of other horses i assume you can only all be on livery yards where horses live in their natural state of being stabled with some individual turnout if they're lucky

perhaps you all ride v strange horses but if all of the others gallop off together
i don't generally find my problem is making 'mine' join in
- somewhat the contrary

i suppose some horses 'love' being left for months on end stuck in the same field and overfed to the point of permanent injury or cardiac attack
-strange how these types of 'loving' owners always seem to escape any criticism

Your post is very ironic - I wish I could actually point out why but I choose not to.

For a starting point though - I don't see anyone here who has said OP is 'heartless' - quite the contrary. Please get your facts straight before posting.

Secondly, my mare very rarely goes on the road or to be honest, gets ridden due to my work hours - so again, my mare is at less risk than those running the GN.

Thirdly, do you think that horses made to get on an overcrowded lorry to Europe for slaughter are getting on without fuss because they WANT to go there? Or do you think that it's maybe something to do with herd response/mentality?

Fourthly, your point about horses being left in fields for months on end and suffering cardiac problems or injury - errm that's a very blanket comment - where are your statistics or examples of this?!

With regard 'forcing' a horse to do something - nobody has said anyone has 'physically forced' a horse to race. Just like nobody can physically force a horse to remain walking at it's leader's side on a headcollar, or physically force a horse to remain in it's stable when you open the door to walk out. I don't see many people up in court for 'forcing' their horses to do those things.

My mare quite often does not want to go in her stable at night - she will stop -I will ask her to move on, she will do - should I be taken to court over that for forcing her to endure being in a stable overnight? Fact is, there is very little chance she will mortally wound herself in the stable overnight.

As for horses 'loving' galloping around with other horses - yes if it's of their own accord in a field sometimes. Sometimes no - it is a herd response and they do it out of fear or out of natural response. One goes - the others go.

I expect you are one of those that thinks just because a horse continues to follow a race jockey-less then it 'MUST' be having the time of it's life and enjoying it!! Err - no - it's merely following the herd. It may well be enjoying - it may well not - none of us can tell that unless the bloomin horse can speak!!
 

labruyere

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i must have imagined these ones then...

I do feel that IMO one of those deaths is almost entirely unavoidable in a reasonable world (ie turning a horse out to pasture which is a near natural life) whereas the other is an imposed risk. Very much similar to a child getting hurt running in a playground of it's own accord, or a child injured being made to perform high level gymnastics ( for example), at the parent's pushiness.

even more guilty about making a horse race which was then killed

But how do you know he WANTED to race?

there is too much pressure placed on the horses -i appreciate this poster was just querying people's opinions on this
 

Ladydragon

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i must have imagined these ones then...

I do feel that IMO one of those deaths is almost entirely unavoidable in a reasonable world (ie turning a horse out to pasture which is a near natural life) whereas the other is an imposed risk. Very much similar to a child getting hurt running in a playground of it's own accord, or a child injured being made to perform high level gymnastics ( for example), at the parent's pushiness.

Moomin was correct... If the horse in question hadn't raced he wouldn't have died during a race... Horses would still die due to injuries in a herd environment... There was no suggestion the OP was heartless - just an accurate observation of fact... I can actually vouch for the child gymnast bit...:D

even more guilty about making a horse race which was then killed

You missed the "I would" at the beginning which clarified an opinion the poster felt would be relevant to themselves... Still no suggestion that the OP was heartless...

But how do you know he WANTED to race?

A question the OP appeared happy to answer... Still no 'heartless' etc...

there is too much pressure placed on the horses -i appreciate this poster was just querying people's opinions on this

Moomin can correct me if s/he feels inclined to do so but that appeared to be a question directed to the OP that the OP was happy to answer... It was even preceded politely with a "can I ask you whether in your opinion..."

So I really still don't see where this assertion that the OP was considered to be 'heartless' came from...

As for the rest of it... Perhaps I'd better have a conversation with my youngster tomorrow and make sure his opinion on being broken is both heard and adhered to... Wouldn't want to make him go through that if he would rather not...
 

ribbons

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Labuyere. I understand exactly what your saying and totally agree. I see suffering caused by ignorance or idleness every day, unfortunately the guilty owners don't see it.
I'm afraid your wasting your time trying to point it out.
The subject of horses in knowledgable hands doing a useful job that will carry some risks v. Horses in ignorant hands doing little or nothing and receiving 'lots of love' who are almost permanently at risk from longer slower unnoticed suffering, will never be understood by the majority of horse owning public these days.
 

Moomin1

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Labuyere. I understand exactly what your saying and totally agree. I see suffering caused by ignorance or idleness every day, unfortunately the guilty owners don't see it.
I'm afraid your wasting your time trying to point it out.
The subject of horses in knowledgable hands doing a useful job that will carry some risks v. Horses in ignorant hands doing little or nothing and receiving 'lots of love' who are almost permanently at risk from longer slower unnoticed suffering, will never be understood by the majority of horse owning public these days.

This is not what everyone is discussing though - we are discussing racing! We aren't talking about people allowing their horses to become unfit or overweight or underweight or having slightly dirty water in their field and cracked hooves.

A GN horse may well be in knowledgeable hands - but does that make it any less at risk than a field ornament who is ridden occassionally? What exactly is this 'longer slower unnoticed suffering?'. Are you suggesting that horses who are merely used for general pleasure by your average horse owner, as opposed to high level competition horses owned by top riders, are in some way 'suffering'. New one to me.

I think if you read back through the thread I have at NO point called the OP heartless in any way whatsoever. I have asked polite questions as to her opinions on the GN (it strikes me OP is obviously very experienced in the racing industry). I was merely interested and at no point was I meaning to be critical or rude - just trying to have a balanced discussion and gain some more insight.
 

Mithras

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Worst horse death I've witnessed was out hacking...someone fell off, horse got loose, got hit by a car, bled to death before vet could arrive. Just awful. Somone had to sit on the horse's head to stop her struggling, although she couldn't really get up with her injuries anyway.
 

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Labuyere. I understand exactly what your saying and totally agree. I see suffering caused by ignorance or idleness every day, unfortunately the guilty owners don't see it.
I'm afraid your wasting your time trying to point it out.
The subject of horses in knowledgable hands doing a useful job that will carry some risks v. Horses in ignorant hands doing little or nothing and receiving 'lots of love' who are almost permanently at risk from longer slower unnoticed suffering, will never be understood by the majority of horse owning public these days.

I agree with this ^^^
 

Orangehorse

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Some people are never going to agree with racing, full stop. Like trying to convert an anti fox hunter (although that has been done several times!!!!!!!!)

If I had a racehorse I would race it, knowing that it might get killed or injured. Or it might never get to the racecourse having been injured in training. Or it might never get to the trainers as it has been injured in the field.

Or it might win, doing the job it was bred for.
 

Mithras

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I do feel that IMO one of those deaths is almost entirely unavoidable in a reasonable world (ie turning a horse out to pasture which is a near natural life) whereas the other is an imposed risk. Very much similar to a child getting hurt running in a playground of it's own accord, or a child injured being made to perform high level gymnastics ( for example), at the parent's pushiness.

So what do you think of the example of the horse I mention killed out hacking? Should we not hack horses either? You can argue its just as much to do with money as horse racing, as we purchase horses to hack and keep a livery industry going to keep them...

But how do you know he WANTED to race?

Horses which don't want to race, won't. They either won't start, or will stay in the pack, or not exert themselves, or run out os stop. If they want to race, they will try to stick their heads out in front and be ahead of the other horses.

there is too much pressure placed on the horses -i appreciate this poster was just querying people's opinions on this

I feel I place far more pressure on my horses to showjump than in racing (I have worked in both). Racing builds far more closely on the natural instinct of a horse to run in a herd and to race and be competitive, which some horses are naturally. Whereas in showjumping, you take them into an indoor school, away from other horses, on an unnatural surface, on their own, and quite often you are thinking up strategies which are basically to avoid napping at all costs.

I don't therefore find it illogical to pick on horse racing particularly, simply because it is on tv more. I find that inflamatory, and more to do with personal interest and making your own conscience feel superior, than with horse welfare.
 

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my 2 pennies worth
(will duck behind wall on hitting submit)

Agree with whoever said this is a truly bizarre post, and surely must be up for some sort of award for the most assumptions ever made in a single post?!

What's with all the straw man arguments anyway? (not just this thread). Are the only people 'allowed' to have an opinion on the Grand National or racing in general, those who are strictly vegan and have never owned an animal :confused: :rolleyes: Why the insistence of comparing one race with racing in general, with any competitive equine sport (or otherwise - death rates in the London Marathon were being discussed on another GN thread :D)? Why can't people simply say they think 2 horses out of 40 dying in one race is too much, in their opinion, if that is how they feel, without being attacked?

As an aside, I think most horses would 'prefer' to be turned out 24/7 (or 'stuck' in the same field if you insist on using the hysterically emotive terminology); it's quite possible to manage grazing without horses routinely dropping dead with laminitis :rolleyes: True cardiac arrests are also extremely aware in horses so I'm not quite sure where you are getting your 'information' from :confused:

OP - sorry for the loss of both of your horses. At the end of the day in my opinion both of them were as a result of 'freak' accidents :(, unusual and unexpected. It was interesting to hear your thoughts on the GN too, which mirror mine somewhat.
 
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