Spinning & Bitting?

[Melody Grey]

HHO wisdom please!

My horse of 5 yrs (Welsh x sports in profile pic) has lately upped his game with spinning technique and I’m getting a bit fed up of it! Mainly due to it affecting others I hack with.

He spins (always right) on hacks as a spook. He sets his neck hard and the only thing I can do is continue turning him right until we’re facing the right way and then push him on very hard. After a couple of repetitions he gives in and goes past whatever was causing the issue. Sometimes clearly fear, but starting to wonder whether it’s a mickey take; when he did it today immediately had his head in a hedge trying to eat.
More annoyingly this has (lately with the arrival of fitness and spring grass) been accompanied by bogging off at speed and then being difficult to pull up- he gets his head down and tanks if there’s space.

He’s been ridden in a French link fulmer snaffle for 5+ years, but wondering now if I could use more brakes for the stopping?! What would you suggest if so? I’m very much for the milder bits used correctly approach, but it seems to be ineffective at the moment.

He’s never gotten away with the behaviour- I stay mounted the vast majority of the time, but have sometimes had to resort to getting off and leading past for everyone’s safety. He’s never been allowed to change route/ return home because of it. He’s generally good in traffic and pretty chilled on the road, once we’ve had our spinning moment!

Tips warmly welcomed!! I’m a confident rider, don’t panic and am calm, but could do without it!

 

[Upthecreek]

I would try universal cheeks on the mouthpiece he currently has for hacking and stick with the fulmer snaffle for schooling. If he is still putting his head down and tanking out hacking in the universal I would try a three ring gag for a while to remind him of his manners. Preferably with two reins so you can ride on the snaffle ring but have the stronger option available if needed.

 

[mini_b]

What noseband are you currently using?

 

[Melody Grey]

I would try universal cheeks on the mouthpiece he currently has for hacking and stick with the fulmer snaffle for schooling. If he is still putting his head down and tanking out hacking in the universal I would try a three ring gag for a while to remind him of his manners. Preferably with two reins so you can ride on the snaffle ring but have the stronger option available if needed.

Forgive my ignorance- universal cheeks in meaning traditional ring type sides or are universal cheeks something more specific? (I’m a bit old school so not down with the new fangled bits?!)

 

[Melody Grey]

What noseband are you currently using?

Just a plain cavasson noseband (not into gadgets!). The fulmer has keepers though so stable in the mouth if that’s what you’re wondering? He doesn’t open his mouth or cross his jaw.

 

[mini_b]

I found that changing the noseband to a grackle gave me better brakes and steering without bitting up.

if something truly does bog off with their head between their knees then a gag/elevator type bit and a kick on will help bring their head up.

 

[GinaGeo]

Is he putting his head up or down?

I had one who was a bit of a bugger for spinning, which started with chucking his head up. A couple of sessions with a loose pair of draw reins, just stopped him getting his head up and nipped it in the bud before it started.

Moved him to a Standing Martingale for a few weeks which helped and now back in his normal cavesson and fulmer snaffle.

Draw reins to be used carefully, and only if you’ve got experience of them. You have to release and reward at the right time. I chose them for our situation because I could be in full control of them.

 

[Illusion100]

American gag/elevator bit for the tanking off with head between knees.

Is he turning his head to left or right when he spins right? Whichever side he turns his head when spinning, maybe try putting a siderein on the opposite side so he can't get the flexion he likes to use for it. Not overly tight, but enough to let him fight against himself, you can just adjust it to what works.

 

[Carrottom]

My first thought was universal, google the NS universal for pics. I agree that a grakle can help depending on what he is doing to evade.

 

[Upthecreek]

Forgive my ignorance- universal cheeks in meaning traditional ring type sides or are universal cheeks something more specific? (I’m a bit old school so not down with the new fangled bits?!)

 

[Melody Grey]

Is he putting his head up or down?

I had one who was a bit of a bugger for spinning, which started with chucking his head up. A couple of sessions with a loose pair of draw reins, just stopped him getting his head up and nipped it in the bud before it started.

Moved him to a Standing Martingale for a few weeks which helped and now back in his normal cavesson and fulmer snaffle.

Draw reins to be used carefully, and only if you’ve got experience of them. You have to release and reward at the right time. I chose them for our situation because I could be in full control of them.

Thanks- I do have experience of draw reins (a long time ago!), however he doesn’t throw his head up....infact there’s no warning it’s whoosh and he’s gone through the shoulder. Unless I’m missing something. I’m not sure draw reins would help?

He gets his head down and behind the vertical if you see what I mean?

 

[Melody Grey]

American gag/elevator bit for the tanking off with head between knees.

Is he turning his head to left or right when he spins right? Whichever side he turns his head when spinning, maybe try putting a siderein on the opposite side so he can't get the flexion he likes to use for it. Not overly tight, but enough to let him fight against himself, you can just adjust it to what works.

Thanks- I hadn’t thought of this. With the spinning there is flexion to the right as he bends to the right. With the drop the shoulder and run manoeuvre, there’s no flexion, it’s like vertical takeoff by 90+ degrees right ?‍

 

[GinaGeo]

Thanks- I do have experience of draw reins (a long time ago!), however he doesn’t throw his head up....infact there’s no warning it’s whoosh and he’s gone through the shoulder. Unless I’m missing something. I’m not sure draw reins would help?

He gets his head down and behind the vertical if you see what I mean?

My spinner went up into it - so the stopping the head coming up stopped the spin in its tracks -doesn’t sound applicable to yours though ?

 

[Melody Grey]

My spinner went up into it - so the stopping the head coming up stopped the spin in its tracks -doesn’t sound applicable to yours though ?

Thanks anyway- will remember it incase he amends his technique!!

 

[dreamcometrue]

I suggest a ported Pelham. That stopped my Haflinger from spinning and tanking off.

 

[Melody Grey]

Update (and request for more help!):
I’ve stopped the spinning in its tracks with a running martingale quite tightly adjusted- he sometimes does a couple of steps sideways but that’s it.

The tanking continued. I tried a three ring Dutch gag (on middle ring) which had worked really well for hacking for a month or so but resulted in him ditching me at the weekend when we had a disagreement about speed. I’d tried it in the school first, I think it’s the first time he’d tried to throw his weight into it and got the full effect- which he clearly disliked! (Got his head between his knees rodeo style).

The bit bank have recommended a NS elevator bit (lozenge first, moving on to Waterford if it’s not enough) but looking at it I can’t see how it’s action differs from the Dutch gag?

Where would you go from here? It’s difficult to call as sometimes he really gets his head down and sometimes not. He clearly didn’t like the poll pressure of the Dutch gag- his head was high initially when he tried to go and rapidly came down (too much!).

 

[Melody Grey]

I wonder whether not trying to specifically address head high or head low but trying a Waterford snaffle might be worth a go to address the general strength?

 

[Hepsibah]

I would be looking at something with a different action. Possibly a kineton noseband, combination bit or even a hackamore.

 

[GrassChop]

Update (and request for more help!):
I’ve stopped the spinning in its tracks with a running martingale quite tightly adjusted- he sometimes does a couple of steps sideways but that’s it.

The tanking continued. I tried a three ring Dutch gag (on middle ring) which had worked really well for hacking for a month or so but resulted in him ditching me at the weekend when we had a disagreement about speed. I’d tried it in the school first, I think it’s the first time he’d tried to throw his weight into it and got the full effect- which he clearly disliked! (Got his head between his knees rodeo style).

The bit bank have recommended a NS elevator bit (lozenge first, moving on to Waterford if it’s not enough) but looking at it I can’t see how it’s action differs from the Dutch gag?

Where would you go from here? It’s difficult to call as sometimes he really gets his head down and sometimes not. He clearly didn’t like the poll pressure of the Dutch gag- his head was high initially when he tried to go and rapidly came down (too much!).

I understand a Waterford is supposed to stop them being able to get hold of the bit but I never had any luck with it. I think if they push down on it enough, it'll stop the breaking points working anyway! What about a Swales type pelham? That gives you chain action without poll pressure.

ETA: Kineton nosebands can work very well if your horse doesn't mind nose pressure.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Update (and request for more help!):
I’ve stopped the spinning in its tracks with a running martingale quite tightly adjusted- he sometimes does a couple of steps sideways but that’s it.

The tanking continued. I tried a three ring Dutch gag (on middle ring) which had worked really well for hacking for a month or so but resulted in him ditching me at the weekend when we had a disagreement about speed. I’d tried it in the school first, I think it’s the first time he’d tried to throw his weight into it and got the full effect- which he clearly disliked! (Got his head between his knees rodeo style).

The bit bank have recommended a NS elevator bit (lozenge first, moving on to Waterford if it’s not enough) but looking at it I can’t see how it’s action differs from the Dutch gag?

Where would you go from here? It’s difficult to call as sometimes he really gets his head down and sometimes not. He clearly didn’t like the poll pressure of the Dutch gag- his head was high initially when he tried to go and rapidly came down (too much!).

that’s what I use, for a horse that gets head down and leans out hacking, I find Waterford elevator good, (but my horse can’t have lozenges)

 

[Carrottom]

I used a NS universal with a waterford mouth piece which worked really well on a ex racer who raked badly and pulled me out of the saddle.

 

[Shilasdair]

Update (and request for more help!):
I’ve stopped the spinning in its tracks with a running martingale quite tightly adjusted- he sometimes does a couple of steps sideways but that’s it.

The tanking continued. I tried a three ring Dutch gag (on middle ring) which had worked really well for hacking for a month or so but resulted in him ditching me at the weekend when we had a disagreement about speed. I’d tried it in the school first, I think it’s the first time he’d tried to throw his weight into it and got the full effect- which he clearly disliked! (Got his head between his knees rodeo style).

The bit bank have recommended a NS elevator bit (lozenge first, moving on to Waterford if it’s not enough) but looking at it I can’t see how it’s action differs from the Dutch gag?

Where would you go from here? It’s difficult to call as sometimes he really gets his head down and sometimes not. He clearly didn’t like the poll pressure of the Dutch gag- his head was high initially when he tried to go and rapidly came down (too much!).

When you say 'tanking' - what speed is he going? Running away is an evasion which is best cured by - letting them run away, then making them run more when they are knackered. This is very effective on the lunge or ridden in a school or field - you keep them going until they are begging to stop. On a public road it might not be so great though....
IME of Waterfords - they can encourage a horse to come behind the bit resulting in no control at all (and I think you mentioned he had form for dropping the contact?).

 

[CPayne]

Having been through the Dutch gag, Cheltenham gag, Waterford etc I ended up with a Myler combination bit. It applies pressure to the nose and gradually to the mouth. I think that there are various mouth styles to choose from, but it gave me some brakes.

 

[Melody Grey]

Thankyou all for your replies- certainly a lot to think about and a lot of different bits etc consider! Just deciding where to start!