Spring Worming

[Hippophilia]

Hoping all you clever HHO people will be able to help me on this one.
I normally worm my mare in March when the spring thaw hits, as I want to catch the little blighters just as the weather warms and they become active. However, this year it is still really cold (think -20 kind of cold) and I am due to fly back to the UK just as it starts to get into plus zero temps in about 2 weeks. I'm away until mid-April when (hopefully) the snow will be gone and the ground will be warming up.
So my question is: should I worm before I go away when everything is still frozen? Will this clear her system of worms if they are still dormant?
OR should I ask my YO (who will be looking after her when I am away) to worm her just after I go when it begins to thaw?
OR should I wait til I get back and the thaw is well under way?
Pancakes and maple syrup for any answers
PS) I worm every few months through the year without an egg count as I am on a large livery yard and no-one does counts so as I understand it counts on my girl alone would be a bit useless.

 

[Hippophilia]

No one?

 

[MrsMozart]

Bump

 

[mandwhy]

How come counts on your girl would be useless? Possibly silly question, I just thought you do the count, if there is low count you don't need to worm that time, and if it is above a certain count you do? I have never done counts before but hoping to use them this year.

 

[Hippophilia]

How come counts on your girl would be useless? Possibly silly question, I just thought you do the count, if there is low count you don't need to worm that time, and if it is above a certain count you do? I have never done counts before but hoping to use them this year.

I'm just sure I read somewhere that all the horses on a property have to be counted, but now that I think about it I have no idea why that might be

 

[martlin]

I would go for mid April when you are back I would say march is a bit early anyway.

 

[Silent Knight]

wirm with moxidectin that will kill the round worms that are encysted alsi worm with praziquantel ti kill the tape worm. you can get a two in one now called paramox. worm counts are no good in winter. many worms are hybernating in the body and are not laying eggs to count. the counts dont pick up tape worm burdens.

 

[tallyho!]

I would worm count. I started worm counting based on advice from vets and a newsletter from the Liv.

There is an overwhelming problem in the UK which many horse owners still seem to be ignoring... resistance. The majority of horses do not have a major worm burden.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/diagnosteq/section_three_masterclass.htm

You can get a test kit for less than £10 and the results are quick and accurate for all except 2 species... Encysted Redworm and Tapeworm. You can get an ELISA test from you vet for tape but you have to expel the encysted redworm as there are no diagnostics for these in the Autumn and ONLY MOXIDECTIN has any efficacy.

My worming count cycle is 3x per year. October, March and April. Last 2 counts have been low, one was medium. I will test again at the end of April. Then again at the end of the summer.

 

[dollymix]

Thanks Silent Knight
Sorry to hijack thread but this had been my worry
YO insisted on worm count last wk end and although both mine are 0 (!!) I sceptical!
Read somewhere (maybe on here?) about someone who wormed by using egg count as her guide and very sadly just had her horse PTS due to colic caused by worms. It's my understanding that worms are dormant and that counts don't take into account tapeworm etc??

Any advice for me? I am feeling I should worm regardless in a couple of weeks....

 

[dollymix]

Good advice from Tallyho too! Should I still b worming for redworm then?

 

[tallyho!]

Good advice from Tallyho too! Should I still b worming for redworm then?

Absolutely!

Worm counts do not mean do not worm at all and it sounds as if the tragic story of your friends horse was ill-advised and I would worry if a lab told me "0". All droppings will contain parasites... the ones they look for are the harmful ones. There are squillions of others which do no harm at all.

Feacal Egg Counts means you can be more targeted and expose your horse to less chemicals and stop resistance. Once the worms build up a resistance, there is nothing anyone can do and horses dropping dead from high worm burden could be the reality we all face.

You need to worm for Encysted Redworm & Tapeworm in late Autumn and if you didn't, you will need to do it now. Equest PRAMOX contains MOXIDECTIN & PRAZIQUANTEL which will *hopefully kill those species. Then worm count again at the end of April to make sure there are no other species.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

Worm counts are very good spring to autumn but they do NOT pick up (reliably) tapeworm and they do NOT pick up the encysted stage of the small redworm. Both are extremely dangerous, the tapeworm causes a lot of colics and the encysted small redworm can cause fatal colic if (as can happen) there is a sudden emergence of lots of the encysted worms.

So anyone using worm counts MUST still worm for tapes and encysted redworm in winter.

Tapes can be either wormed for eg by Equitape or blood tested for by vet so you only worm if positive result.

Encysted redworm has to be wormed for using eg Equest.

Pramox covers both types of worms, nb it is consequently very powerful a bit like drain cleaner so I would use it only on an otherwise healthy, not colic prone horse who has had a good worming programme before.

Worm and leave horses on the old field for a few days before moving them to clean pasture (used to be advice to move them to clean after worming but thats changed as theyve realised that just means exporting 100% wormer resistant worms to the fresh pasture, instead you want them to breed with any untreated worms in the ground who wont be resistant).

 

[Borderreiver]

If you wormed for encysted and tapes in Nov/Dec then count this time. If you didn't then worm with Equest Pramox and count next time.
It is absolutely imperative that everyone stops dosing horses without doing tests. Worm control should be based on tests, as outlined above, probably three a year with a winter dose for encysted and tapeworm. Add a second tapes dose 6 mths later if high risk otherwise don't worm if results are clear <50 epg or low <200 epg, no such thing as a count of 0.

The egg reappearance times for moxidectin are already shortening which means resistance is coming.

We have just had a customer on the phone who has used Equest extensively over the last few years, wormed with Equest Pramox in Dec, Equest in January on advice of vet as the horse was thin. Horse has a medium count for redworm last week. She has given the correct dose for size. What can she do next? If her horse has worms which are resistant to moxidectin and there is widespread resistance to Panacur then there is nothing left for treating encysted redworm. Please will people start to listen!

Great advice in above post about worm and move too.

 

[TheSylv007]

I think I'm being thick and I agree that we should be testing rather than just routinely administering wormers, but if encysted redworms and tapeworms cannot be reliably tested for, what alternative is there other than to worm? Sorry if I'm being daft!

 

[mandwhy]

Ok this is very helpful worm experts! Sorry for another hi jack I am confused about this....

I bought my horse in October, owner said she was last wormed in August which I assume was for encysted red and tape so I did not worm in Autumn myself, do I need to worm for those two now it is march and then get worm counts for the other visible-in-poo types of worms in April, which will tell me whether she needs it?

I also have a small companion who in the loan contract it says must be worked with equest every three months, due end of march, I thought like borderreiver says that would create resistance? Should I worm the pony for encysted red worm and tapeworm and then also do a worm count in April for her and review whether she needs worming in June (obv will consult owner if its ok).

Interesting about the pasture Lachlanandmarcus, mine are on their full two acres, I know it used to say keep horses off the grass for however long - why was this? to stop them pooing on or to stop them eating the grass?! Should I worm on one section then put them on another section shortly after, or just worm them and leave them as they are?

Also is it particularly important to make sure all previous poo is removed and then be vigilant for next few days, or would it actually be better for the worms to 'mingle'?

 

[dollymix]

Absolutely!

Worm counts do not mean do not worm at all and it sounds as if the tragic story of your friends horse was ill-advised and I would worry if a lab told me "0". All droppings will contain parasites... the ones they look for are the harmful ones. There are squillions of others which do no harm at all.

Feacal Egg Counts means you can be more targeted and expose your horse to less chemicals and stop resistance. Once the worms build up a resistance, there is nothing anyone can do and horses dropping dead from high worm burden could be the reality we all face.

You need to worm for Encysted Redworm & Tapeworm in late Autumn and if you didn't, you will need to do it now. Equest PRAMOX contains MOXIDECTIN & PRAZIQUANTEL which will *hopefully kill those species. Then worm count again at the end of April to make sure there are no other species.

Thanks for the advice!
I will put a note up in the livery yard tack room tonight about this and speak to the YO. I must admit I was a little concerned by the statement 'no one needs to worm!'

I will suggest worming now with Pramox - then a follow up in April!

Thanks again

 

[tallyho!]

Best practice to help with pasture worm burdens is to cross-graze with other species of grazers e.g. sheep and cows.

You can buy or even borrow sheep from a local farmer.

I wouldn't buy a cow

 

[mandwhy]

My last field neighbours had a small holding with sheep, and the people who manage the land rental said 'no you can't put sheep on there, this is horse grazing', how very silly!

 

[tallyho!]

My last field neighbours had a small holding with sheep, and the people who manage the land rental said 'no you can't put sheep on there, this is horse grazing', how very silly!

Indeed it is... and I wish more people would realise how valuable it can be in the fight to keep parasites down for all our grazers.

Equine species of worms cannot survive in ruminants digestive systems and are therefore killed completely. Vice-versa.

 

[meandmrblue]

I have wormed my horses with equestpramox which local tack shop has told me to do they never said wait another month before giving it to them I hope this is correct everything seems to be changing

 

[tallyho!]

I think I'm being thick and I agree that we should be testing rather than just routinely administering wormers, but if encysted redworms and tapeworms cannot be reliably tested for, what alternative is there other than to worm? Sorry if I'm being daft!

This is a valid and important question.

Tapeworms CAN be tested for, just needs an ELISA test routinely carried out by a vet.

We could just continue to use broad spectrum and worm every three months. This is how we got into this mess in the first place.

At least with FEC's you can see if you actually NEED every antithelmintic or just the one class. More importantly, the horse is not exposed to so many chemicals every three months which carry inherent risks.

You still need to worm, its the WAY we worm that needs to change. FECs do not remove the need for wormers.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I have a colic prone horse and I minimise the wormer use. That means I get the vet to do a winter MOT of teeth, flu/ tet jabs and at the same time they take the blood sample for the tapeworm ELISA blood test. The big advantage is that it absolutely tells you if they have tapes or not. If they don't you don't need to worm for tapeworm.

However encysted small redworm is the only type which presents a big risk and for which there is no blood test yet and it doesn't reliably show on FECs. So everyone without exception should be worming for that in the winter, no ifs or buts.

If you don't use the ELISA blood test for tapes then you must worm for both tapes and encysted redworm, either with pramox which does both, or using separate wormers such as Equest for the encysted and Equitape for the tapes.

My vet told me that horses that year on year test negative in the tapeworm blood test tend to stay clear, whereas horses who have positive results tend to have more positive results in subsequent years. My mare has always been clear all 3 years whereas my gelding was positive for tapes last year and the year before (and was wormed for tapes as a result ) but was clear this year hurrah!

 

[barehoofhannah]

Hello,
I'm keen to get changed to a more targeted worming programme. I aim to worm for Encysted red worm, blood test for tape worm (then worm dependent on the results) and fecal test for strongles and astrids and whatever else can be seen (then worm d on r)

This was something in a usa magazine I subscribe to and will start to pay more attention to:

http://www.holistichorse.com/horse-health/diseases/1655-worming-in-harmony-with-lunar-cycles

I have an mp3 interview about it on my computer... If anyone is interested contact me for it. Basically like female ovulation cycles if you test for eggs as certain times they won't have been released so test will come back with little in. Theory is that stuff in nature relates to the moon cycle.

Hannah