SSH STALLION GRADING RESULT

[Anastasia]

Well just in the door from the SSH Stallion Grading held today at DABBS. Sorry I never told any other HHOers I was coming down, but it was a last minute decision this morning.

Anyway...

Felt the grading was very well run today (well done the SSH), and really agreed on 99% if the judges decisions. There was one judge from the NRPS Society in Holland and another from the Hanoverian Verband in Germany.

All stallions were x-rayed before hand and x-rays checked to a high standard via vets in Newmarket. So all with scores of 1-2 on x-rays and free from any hereditary defects.

Of the 25 stallions forward 16 passed, and this was the results of who passed etc (note that no scores were given, so these will be available from the SSH), I would also like to say that I have put in my own comments, but these are my own personal views:-

Licensed Award (top award - marks over 75)

Acordo O (Liver Chesnut by Concorde x Damiro) - Owned by Braeface Stud (ex Ingliston House Stud) - JUDGES COMMENTS: Good type, really good in jumping but there was a query with the legs which they did not go into detail about.

My Personal Opinion - nice enough type of horse with good looks, unfortunately I missed the jumping part.

Voss (Chesnut by Voltaire x Animo) - Owned by Mr & Mrs Brake from Dorset - stallion currently competes at Foxhunter - JUDGES COMMENTS: Good type with good jump. Was given Licensed pending further veterinary investigation (not sure what they came across but I think it was minor but needed checking out)

My Personal Opinion - HUGE stallion! OK in movement, better canter than trot, jumping was good but nothing to him as he was playing with the fences.

L.C. Napenay (Chesnut by Salut Reve De Dimanche x Sigfird) - Owned by Dr S Monaghan in Fife - JUDGES COMMENTS: For a 15 year old he was a very nice type of stallion with a good jump. This stallion has competed up to GP Level showjumping in Argentina. He was given Licensed status pending full verified pedigree, as he is missing a generation. So unless they can verify the pedigree he would then drop to "Listed" status.

My Personal Opinion - Looks good for his age, quite nice in trot and canter. Did not open that well in the haunches over the small jumps, but improved a lot more when the jumps were put up to a decent height.

Registered Award (middle award - marks of 70-74)

Apollo IHS (Bay by Ingliston Allround x Grannus) - Owned by Mrs W Ferguson, Aberdeenshire - JUDGES COMMENTS: Nice enough stallion in type but had problems in the movement. Good enough in the jump.

My Personal Opinion - Felt this stallion was good enough looking but did not do a lot for me. Movement nothing to write home about and seen better jumpers on the day.

Cassalo Z (Chesnut by Casall x Carthago Z) - Owned by Braeface Stud - JUDGES COMMENTS: Really good in the jumping and likes the way it went with plenty of scope and technique. Most the conformation was good but they had issues with his hooves but not enough to fail him.

My Personal Opinion - Very pretty head and good type. Jumping was very good and movement was good enough.

Ardencaple Colosseum (Grey by Cruisings Mickey Finn x Mackrocket) - Owned by Wilma Collier from Dunfermline - JUDGES COMMENTS: Nice enough type of horse with a good jump.

My Personal Opinion - Very quiet and well behaved horse with a far better jump than movement. Type was ok.

Dali Van Overis Z (Dark Bay by Darco x Nimmerdor) - Owned by Des Le Marquand - JUDGES COMMENTS: One of the best stallions in type. Good attitude in the jumping and the jumping improved as he went on. Thought he may have got Licensed, but judges only awarded Registered.

My Own Opinion - Really liked this horse. Spiting image of Nimmerdor and really threw a big jump towards the end. He is only 2.5 years and felt he has a lot of scope for the future. Good feet on him.

(PONY) Tullynessle Fiscal Surprise (Chesnut by Domingo B x Going East) - Owned by Tullynessle Stud, Aberdeenshire - JUDGES COMMENTS: Nice type with good neck and shoulders. Small problem with the quality of the legs but not enough to be a major issue. Far better in the jump than in the movement.

My Own Opinion - Very pretty pony stallion. Liked his type and how well he was put together. Quite lively but soon settled in the jumping.


Listed Award (bottom award - marks of 65-69)

Zapata (Bay by Ingliston Allround x Ahorn) - Owned by Braeface Stud - JUDGES COMMENTS: Made a good impression and was good in his jumping, but he was weak through his loins and they had issues with his conformation.

My Own Opinion - Good enough jumping technique, opens up well through his haunches and comes up well through his shoulders. Movment is ok.

Vivaldi (Black by Concorde x Goodtimes) - Owned by Des Le Marquand - JUDGES COMMENTS: Very good top line, good enough movement and jump.

My Own Opinion - Dont have one as never saw him jump or move

Just Ross (Bay by Calvaro Z x Goldhills) - Owned by Andrew Ballentyne - JUDGES COMMENTS: Poor in the movement, better in the jump.

My Own Opinion - As above as never saw him.

Eclips V (Bay by Chin Chin x Palestrino) - Owned by Des Le Marquand - JUDGES COMMENTS: Cannot remember as somebody speaking to me at the time.

My Own Opinion - Very nice looking athletic horse, movement was "so so", far better in the jump, although I felt he was a little stiff through the back. But I was surprised he did not do better as thought he was a nice type.

Urlanmore Cavalier (Chesnut by Ricardo Z x Cavalier Royale) - Owned by Mr K Ashe, Aberdeenshire - JUDGES COMMENTS: Cannot remember as people were speaking next to me and missed what they said.

My Own Opinion - Good enough jump, better canter than trot, short neck and well developed. Opens haunches ok in the jump.

Baldorran (Chesnut by Marius Claudius x Duplikat) - Owned by RL Pitcairn - JUDGES COMMENTS: Only thing I remember is them saying that he is heavier in type but with a good enough jump.

My Own Opinion - A Duplikat look-a-like! Quite heavy and crunches behind in the movement, however, the higher the jump gets the better this stallion jumped.

McJonnas (Cremello by Mineral Gold x Quoniam Zakupsky) - Owned by Solaris Sports Horses (ex Rass Stud) - JUDGES COMMENTS: Again missed what they said.

My Own Opinion - Was pleasantly surprised with this stallion (not that I am sure what I was expecting). Felt he was a good model of stallion and had the most gorgeous tail (it was almost like shiny gold!). He is a far better jumper than mover, but he has done well on his first dressage outing.

PW Little Conquest (Bay by Victors Quest x Goldhills) - Owned by Mr P Williams, Lanark - JUDGES COMMENTS: Would like to see a bit more poetry in his movement, but in jump they felt he had a lot of scope to go much higher. I think this pony has been successful in BSJA already.

All other stallions failed. If people want to know the comments on them then I will tell you privately, as I dont think it fair to publish them on a public forum..

All in all a good day and even though there was a change of judges this year I felt the judging was of the same quality as previous years.

I also think that I can easily say that people are now starting to think much more about the quality of stallions they are putting forward for gradings. All stallions were of a higher standard this year and were presented very well and all were turned out to a very high standard. So I think that breeders are finally starting to understand the importance of looking more at the stallions they are putting forward.

Full results along with pictures etc will be published on the SSH website very shortly.

 

[volatis]

Is the SSH mainly seen as a jumping studbook do you think? Seems to be a lot of jumping blood presented and the stallions almost all seem to have been better jumpers than movers.

 

[Anastasia]

I think that people assume it is more geared towards jumping than dressage, but I think this is historical, and they are certainly trying to aim for all disciplines.

There were ones put forward today that were dressage bred but again did not necessarily show themselves well on the day.

There was one by Don Primero and the judges said that they were surprised because by his breeding alone he should not be able to jump, but he had a superb jump and I felt not so good on the flat. However, he is being aimed for eventing.

I would have said that for the jumping and eventing market there were stallions of suitable quality. But in fairness the dressage bred stallions were in very limited numbers.

In the dressage stallions I would say that our own is probably the only one graded in the Licensed/Approved categories, as the rest are all jumping lines. Having said that Ingliston Allround is producing horses that are very good movers as well, and so has Umenno.

There was word at one point of doing specialisation at the gradings, but this was only discussed and nothing else came forward about it.

Also wanted to add that the SSH is, I think, the only UK Studbook that has a clean set of x-rays as standard practice for their stallions, so again giving mare owners some added bonuses.

 

[ClaireT]

Anastasia, I've just realised that I managed to walk right past you without realising - OH said in car that he'd seen a lady with a Morayfirth Stud jacket - apologies for not hunting you down to say hello!

OH did find Opie for me to meet, at last!

It was an excellent day from a spectators viewpoint; I thought the judges were extremely frank with their comments - sometimes VERY frank, but I think this was mainly due to translation!!

I took some pics - below are a few random ones, as I haven't edited them yet. Opie's pics will be wayyy better, look forwards to seeing them

Follow Me -

Ardencaple Colosseum

Just Ross

Just Ross

Zapata

Cassalo Z

Apollo IHS

 

[DQ1]

PMd anastasia

 

[alleycat]

Thankyou for all the info. (Very interested to know more about this Ardencaple Colosseum horse now, since he's in, I like his breeding & he looks v. attractive in your picture. Any idea what's on the bottom line?)

Edited to say- Sorry- Claire's picture!

 

[Partoow]

great report! Thank you.
It was interesting as i have in the past ridden horses for Straloch, Berland and Ridinghill studs.
I have always found the book more jumping influenced but as you say that is due to the influences of the main movers and shakers in the past.
Still feel that people confuse a good sporthorse with what a stallion needs to be , which is a good progenator.
It has to have that something a bit 'more' but mostly it must be truely 'Male' in looks and attitude.With a clear conformation quality that would be of value to mares.
It would be interesting to see what you think on this.
I remember Duplikat and he was a true 'type' which, as you say is clearly genetically strong, your sisters stallion of this bloodline would probably be a good example of this 'type'. Like you say 'heavier' or more old fashioned but like anything there are a huge variety of mares out there.
I also dont think that there should be such a thing as clear as jumping or dressage interms of breeding. I am good at many sports because i have an athletic build , i think that this is true for horses. Those of exellent conformation, of athletic movement and good temperaments are what we are looking for in any equine sport. The likes of Olympic Ferro , as i have experience with this bloodline, are proof enough of this i think. Ulft, the grand sire was very powerful in both the dressage and showjumping breeding indexes.
Anyway its all fascinating!!

 

[Fahrenheit]

Great Report

[ QUOTE ]
Also wanted to add that the SSH is, I think, the only UK Studbook that has a clean set of x-rays as standard practice for their stallions, so again giving mare owners some added bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to make a very self indulgent remark and that was that Helios had to show clean xrays to complete his grading for Life Graded status with the SHB(GB)... the reason this is self indulgent is because he was 19yos at the time and had competed for his whole life, so was very proud when the vet looking at the xrays, had to ring me up to confirm that he was 19yos, when I said yes he is 19yos, they said he thought the age was an error because his joints were cleaner than most 6 or 7yos xrays he looks at

Its good to know you horses joints are good at that age and after that amount of work...

He does have some blemishs though but what horse doesn't get a scar here and there and a capped hock by the age of 24yos!! (which is how old he is now)

**self indulgence over**

 

[Anastasia]

Ardencaple Colosseum was a nice type of horse that showed a nice shape over the jumps. He is currently doing BSJA at Discovery and they are looking to event him this year. He also got a 1st Premium in September of last year. Think he will attrack the eventing type of mares.

His dam is Granola who is by Mackrocket and on the bottom line it is Chou Chin Chon, my head tells me this is Irish lines but I may be wrong.

I was speaking to Harry Aird who owns Mickey Finn and he is currently standing in Ireland for this year with the owner of Crusing and is proving to be VERY popular. Think he is going to be put forward to the Irish Stallion Approvals from what Harry said.

 

[Anastasia]

That is a shame we missed each other.

I like the judges frankness. I like the fact they are honest in their opinions. I do think that they did struggle for a start, but they gave very detailed critiques for the ponys.

I wished that they told everyone about the marks as they were speaking about the stallions.

When I was doing it with the KWPN last year we had the marks against each stallion and I wrote down the judges comments in English on each of the score sheets as we went through the stallions, so that the information was clear when he was speaking to the audience.

In Holland at the KWPN gradings they will say exactly was they like or dislike about stallions, and I think this is good because it then gives mare owners the whole picture on the stallion.

Its like anything with stallions, owners will gloss over the weaker points and promote the strengths...it would be silly to do anything else. However, if you are lucky enough to hear what a judge has to say at the gradings then you get a better overall picture and can then make better judgements on whether that stallion will suit your mare.

I really liked the judges and the fact that they always come from top studbooks means that they have good background on stallions because they are assessing hundreds of stallions each year.

The Hanoverian judge spoke about how some of the stallions that did not pass would make very good sports horses, but that they did not possess the qualities for stallions. I feel personally this is very true, and I liked the fact they did not dismiss the fact that these horses will go on to have good futures in sport, but that they did not feel that they would improve on mares, and at the end of the day that is what a stallion has to do.

As I have harked on about many times before, a good sports horse does not necessarily make a good stallion, and a good breeding stallion may never make a top class sports horse. And the same goes for mares as well.

 

[Anastasia]

Partoow, thanks for that. I wonder if our paths have crossed before....

I think that ANY stallion has to have the qualities that will improve on the mares, otherwise how on earth does a line progress. Also that mares have to be of good quality as well because stallions are not miracle workers...

Duplikat horses you can tell a mile off!! The stallion yesterday was a grandson and by god you could tell straight away he came off the line. He had his grandfathers face and livliness! He is the heavier, old fashioned type, but he will suit lighter types of mares.

I am not a believer in specialisation, I personally think that the KWPN are going to find in a few generations that they will have jumping stallions with no movement at all. And although you hope that a youngster with impeccable jumping bloodlines will jump, you have no guarantee until they are older. Whereas, if they can at least move, you can then ride them in dressage. Time will tell on that one.

There are many many stallion who possess the qualities of producing for both disciplines - Flemmingh (Holstein bloodlines, jumped himself, but known for dressage), Ferro (also did jumping as well as dressage), Argentinus - has International sons and daughters in both dressage and jumping. Sandro - jumped internationally but through Sandro Hit is known as one of the top dressage lines in the World.

As you say a stallion must look like a stallion, have superb conformation (and the judges were VERY strong in assessing the conformation faults yesterday, which I liked) and athletic movement.

For the stallions with strong jumping bloodlines then I expect them to show a lovely shape, with good scope, technique and ability, and to show quick reflexes in both their front and back legs.

With the stallions who are more dressage bred I want them to show uphill movement, with an active hock and good freedom from the shoulder and knee, and where the whole body is moving with ease and suppleness.

I also like them to have a good temperament, but if a stallion is sharp/hot then this would not put me off using them, as I would just put them on a quieter mare.

For instance Jazz and Heartbreaker are known for producing hot horses, and Jazz in-hand is something else to see!! He spends more time in the air than on the ground, but if you look at the stock at the top level in sport they are all Jazz sons and daughters. Libero H also produced horses with a bit of temperament, but they have got phenomenal jumps and many have been International horses.

I was speaking to someone who went over to the Hans Horn Stallion Show and one of the stallions I really like, I have been told that he will be less likely to make International level because he is soo quiet and laid back. However, his stable companion who is sharper in the stable and under saddle they say will go on to International level. However, I would still use either of the stallions because both are marketable.

It all depends on what you are marketing your youngstock as. Across the world only about 1/2% of horses will ever go on to become International horses. The rest end up in the hands of semi-professionals or amateurs, and more so for the amateurs you need a really good temperament.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Also wanted to add that the SSH is, I think, the only UK Studbook that has a clean set of x-rays as standard practice for their stallions, so again giving mare owners some added bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of interest, when we were at Nijhof last year they proudly told us that none of their stallions had OCD and then in the next sentence that they said that they X-rayed everything at 2 years old and operated on any that showed OCD lesions, so presumably once X-rayed again they would show up clean too! As I think this must be quite a common practice in some of the bigger Dutch breeding yards, becuase these operated-on animals are the ones they then usally then sell as riding horses or as potential stallions outside Holland (not the ones they thesleve s keep as stalliosn of course, which are naturally clean) does anyone know if 'clean' X-rays actually prove that the horse has been clear of OCD throughout (ie can identify if an operation has taken place to remove any lesions) or if they can only show that the horse is clear of OCD at the time of X-ray?.

Just wondered, as it occurred to me at the time but I have never got around to investigating it further (probably becuase I was so shocked by it!).

And BTW, the KWPN obviously know about all this as they were there when they said it and didn't turn a hair even though the audience was made up almost entirely of representatives of WBFSH member studbooks!

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]

The Hanoverian judge spoke about how some of the stallions that did not pass would make very good sports horses, but that they did not possess the qualities for stallions. I feel personally this is very true, and I liked the fact they did not dismiss the fact that these horses will go on to have good futures in sport, but that they did not feel that they would improve on mares, and at the end of the day that is what a stallion has to do.

As I have harked on about many times before, a good sports horse does not necessarily make a good stallion, and a good breeding stallion may never make a top class sports horse. And the same goes for mares as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree. Sometimes having to say it over and over again makes you feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall, but hopefully the message will get through eventually. Dr Haring always says that 'a stallion is a riding horse PLUS. . . ' and its the plus that people are so often reluctant to accpet that their dear little colt does not have <sigh>

 

[firm]

Hi AC

I liked Ardencapple Colosseum. He is not a flashy WB type as expected with those lovely Irish bloodlines

. The judges said he had a lot of scope to his jump & a good mind. They criticised him for not having enough stallion presence and he certainly was very laid back & easy. However as Macrockets are known as hot and Cruising can be sensitve I liked the fact he seemed so chilled.
His damline is Macrocket & Chou Chin Chow two cracking TBs. Macrocket sired many good jumpers including Grade As & of course the Olympic eventer of Mr Smiley's - Enterprise. Chou Chin Chow is very well known & respected - if you google him he will come up. The dam sire of Carnavally & also one of the Pessoa horses come from this line. Diamond Chin I would bet is this line too.

Then his sire is Cruising Mickey Finn with Criusing & Skyboy - can't ask for more LOL

Napeney was super, another real gentleman & showed how he can jump when the fences got bigger. His sire is the French TB Salut Reve De Dimanche which I had not realised another plus point.

 

[volatis]

Really interesting thread, thank you Anastasia for putting the comments up and starting the thread. Totally agree with the difference between a superb gelding and a stallion prospect. Stallions have to have that x factor. I know a lot of people who go to buy at the post grading auctions as the quality of sporthorse they can buy among the non-graded colts is so high.

 

[Partoow]

It is so good that a breeder like yourself thinks along these lines, and is probably why you continue to breed some nice horses.
I personally to not see 'sharp' as anything to do with good or bad characture. Carl says if it bucks when you tap it with a whip buy it!! i second that!! But then i am a proffetional rider and have the 'tools to deal with a hotter animal.
As breeders you have the difficult task of producing young stock to fill many demands not only for the sport but also for the riders!!
I still dont like 'freakish' movement, it is difficult to contain and train for top level dressage. I LOVE a lot of the sons Of Fidermark and Showstar. They all have 'complete movement with a lovely matching elastic diagonal pair ,good room and rhythm to the paces and good transmission with lovely set on of the head an neck.
I have a gorgeous , sharp Special D x Lancet colt that i am preparing at the moment i hope to present him in the Autumn, i am very excited about him as he rminds me soooo much of my special Ferro son so i have my fingers crossed as i believe totally in the strength of good grading for consistent production of good quality horses for equine sport.

 

[alleycat]

Excellent discussion. But what IS this x-factor? Is it just about being good in all respects- no questions on conformation etc.- just what you would normally be looking for- ( I assume its not because across some of the stud books- but especially OUTWITH Britain I have seen some stallions that I really did feel were not correct, especially with regard to back leg angles, front pasterns, etc. Also, not all good stallions would succeed in the show ring). Or is it a temprament thing; a "look at me- I am the man" thing- and if so, is it really relevant to producing geldings for competition?

I remember going to see an early SSH graded horse- Simply the Best (name changed to Kudos) by Mariuson, many years ago- he looked like a great docile lump & did nothing for me until let loose, when he fired up & began to demonstrate his amazing jump over twigs & bushes in his paddock; he looked a different animal. His stable mate had more "stallion quality" as I would recognise it; but let loose did nothing very much on the slippy ground. So am I misunderstanding what stallion quality is? Perhaps I should PM Anastasia to find out what was seen to be wrong with the ones that didn't have it.

As for dressage & jumping; I think top level demands of these sports require such different horses now that they will inevitably seperate. I think there are two main problems: the emphasis on (an exaggerated) trot in dressage, as the showier pace, at the expense of the canter, and - especially- the demand for dressage horses to have a high wither & a low rear-end; I do not think this is the same as moving uphill and I'm not sure it even helps the horse move uphill; it just gives the illusion of it IMO, but it is expected; whilst I think I'm right in saying that a recent French study of top-performing jumpers suggested being croup- high was actually normal & presumably advantageous for them. (Sorry I can't quote chapter & verse but I do remember reading that).

I think the rise of the purpose bred eventer will probably save the day and satisfy the desire in this country for a horse which can trot, gallop & jump, move in extension & collection, be sound & tough and be sane in exciting circumstances as well as competitive. I think we'll eventually produce a sort of of warmblood / sportshorse like a tailormade TB type for this discipline into which the other disciplines will dip when they need to give forward movement at canter, rather than going to the TB itself.

(Some people will say the Trakhener is this already, though I don't quite believe this myself.) I think this is the way Britain should be going; we have the TB heritage to do this and it seems that a lot of our breeders are drawn that way anyway in demanding an all-round athleticism in their horses.

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
whilst I think I'm right in saying that a recent French study of top-performing jumpers suggested being croup- high was actually normal & presumably advantageous for them. (Sorry I can't quote chapter & verse but I do remember reading that).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have definitely read this too, in reference to the French star Show Jumper Japoloupe (sp?)

 

[Anastasia]

OK will try and answer some of the queries posted:

CISS

The <u>ONLY</u> way of knowing for sure if a horse <u>EVER</u> had OCD would be to x-ray as a foal and then 2-year old. I know the chap who x-rays for the KWPN stallions and had long discussions about this with him last year when he was doing the SSH Stallion x-rays.

A foal can have OCD but through good nutrition and balanced development this will rectify itself before it is x-rayed at 2.5 years. Alternatively you could also get a foal with no OCD but with x-rays at 2.5 years old has developed this, possibly through lack of correct nutrition etc. But the only way would be to x-ray a young horse twice.

And yes, the operation for OCD is done through keyhole surgery, so if a horse has small lesions or chips in a stifle or hock etc then you will never ever know, unless the owner is VERY honest...

In Holland they have x-rayed stallions for years through the KWPN, however, they have not done the same with the mares, only if an owner decides to go down this line. Its relatively inexpensive to do in Holland.

When I spoke with Alfons in Holland he says that it is going to take another 3-4 generations before Dutch horses are clear of OCD. This is why the KWPN have done extensive research through x-raying several hundred yearlings a couple of years ago, but have not released the results...I am guessing for very good reasons...

And yes....I agree, too many people think that they have a world beater of a colt, when really it should be cut to make a good sports horse....

PARTOOW
Thank you for your comments. As you are a professional rider then the hot horse as you say will not phase you. However, its amazing how many amateurs see a "hot" horse/stallion and then say how bad tempered or dangerous it is...however if you go to one of the International shows abroad this is just classed as everyday behaviour by many. I hope you are successful with your Special D. I like Special D, having seen him many times, it is unusual for them to be hot, unless that is the Lancet line.

I cant say I have seen many freakish moving stallions or horses. Of those with more spectacular movement would be Florencio I and Quarterback, but Florencio I is doing very well at PSG just now with Hans Peter...and Quarterback is relatively young at the moment to know how he will mature and grow.

Fidermark is a lovely stallion, we used Fidertanz last year on one of our mares, but I am a great fan of the Florestan line.

And I think I know who you are now....

ALLEYCAT
The "x-factor" for me in a stallion is a horse that produces the goods. Yes you want to know that they have performed in sport etc, but as a breeder I want to know what the youngstock are like, both as foals, as young horses and under saddle. To me that is what makes a stallion. You can have a GP Dressage stallion but if he cannot produce the goods as a sire I would not go near him. Lingh is the case in point with that one, as he is a spectacular dressage horse but cannot produce the goods with his foals...unless under saddle they do better.

Personally I would rather use a stallion that competed at lower level in sport, but that is producing phenomenal offspring, than a stallion that won the World Cup but who's offspring are of poor quality, conformation, movement or jumping ability. Yes it would be great to have both the high performance AND the quality as a sire. PLUS you also have stallions that are so popular as sires that their owners are just not willing to keep them in sport because of this (as at the end of the day they have to pay for themselves). Example of this is Indoctro, and he has produced the goods several times over...

I would also agree on the conformation of some stallions abroad. One Hanoverian stallion in particular dishes himself quite markedly, and throws this onto his foals, but breeders are not put off with this because of the other qualities he possesses.

Showjumpers are known to be croup high because this helps them throw their backend out the way. If a horse is croup high it will never ever be able to lift itself through the body to be a top level dressage horse. This is the same with young horses...as they grow they go up at one end then the other, but when they are croup high their movement deteriorates because they cannot lift themself up through the front the same.

I dont think the eventer is just the "all round horse", and have seen a stallion that is used for eventing that I would not even have in a lucky bag....

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
The "x-factor" for me in a stallion is a horse that produces the goods. Yes you want to know that they have performed in sport etc, but as a breeder I want to know what the youngstock are like, both as foals, as young horses and under saddle. To me that is what makes a stallion

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. true- but that comes with hindsight. How then can anyone possibly judge whether a 2.5 year old- or even a 5 or 6 year old at a grading has stallion quality? Horses deemed by graders to lack this elusive stallion quality are cut before we can judge them through their offspring. So what is it? How do we recognize it? Its no good even saying "the judges are so experienced- they can tell-" because their decisions are self- fulfilling if their "failures" then don't breed.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the eventer is just the "all round horse", and have seen a stallion that is used for eventing that I would not even have in a lucky bag....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm itching to know which stallion.

Can't think of any I truly hate; even those who are not pretty do the job. But I think the demands of eventing by their very nature are aiming towards an all-round horse; especially now dressage has increased in importance. I'm not saying that any existing eventer IS the ideal all-round horse (although they may be the foundation stock of a new race of purpose-bred eventers) any more than you could say that a showjumper from oh, I don't know- the 1960s -is the definitive showjumper; but I think the discipline of eventing will eventually produce the animals that have the balance in their abilities that dressage &amp; showjumping horses will increasingly lack. (Just my opinion, but I believe I can see it happening).

Nor am I saying croup-high is good , as such. I was always told that a good horse should be level, withers &amp; croup; but specialist breeds and disciplines obviously think differently, though I do think there is an element of showmanship in dressage that allows croup-low to creep in, mistaken for a correct way of going; at least in showjumping croup-high, and the added leverage of the long hind leg, seems to be an actual mechanical advantage appropriate to that sport.

I think its only in eventing that you are going to get a competitive discipline that by its nature DEMANDS an all-rounder; and as all horse-sports become increasingly professional, the eventing horse will grow to fill the niche.

 

[alleycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Dali Van Overis Z (Dark Bay by Darco x Nimmerdor) - Owned by Des Le Marquand - JUDGES COMMENTS: One of the best stallions in type. Good attitude in the jumping and the jumping improved as he went on. Thought he may have got Licensed, but judges only awarded Registered.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this is interesting- "type".. this is another elusive quality. What do you think the judges meant by it here? Has the SSH settled down to a "type" yet? Shouldn't this just evolve?
I'm saying this as to me "type" sort of means those characteristics that match a pattern the judge has in his/her head, &amp; that aren't necessarily to do with function. Like, Arab "type"- dished face, high tail- an Arab could have perfect conformation and still lack type.

 

[firm]

There is a video of this stallion online if you have a search and you can get an idea.
My notes are different on him though - I have got that the judges thought he was an old fashioned type but he got better looking/more beautiful when he jumped because he was such an excellent jumper.

 

[alleycat]

Thanks, firm- I did &amp; I got this:

http://www.horseauctionbelgium.be/stock-horses.php#

I THINK I see what is meant.

I'm going to have a better look this evening; there seem to be a real variety of youngsters on there all jumping very differently.

I never realised there were so many different ways of getting from one side of a fence to the other, bar walking round it.

 

[JustRoss]

Just a quick not to say good report on the Scottish Sports Horse Stallion grading.

The stallion grading was a great day, really well organised and run. Well Done to the committe.

CORRECTION FOR JUDGES COMMENTS ON JUST ROSS -

THE JUDGE COMMENTED ON HOW WELL JUST ROSS MOVED (HE DID NOT SAY HE IS A POOR MOVER, AS REPORT SAYS.) HE ALSO COMMENTED ON HIS TOP LINE, GOOD CONFIRMATION AND SCOPEY JUMP.

 

[JustRoss]

Just a quick note to say good report on the grading.

Thought the Grading was a great day. Really well organised and run. Well Done to the Scottish Sports Horse Committe.

CORRECTION ON JUDGES COMMENT FOR JUST ROSS -

THE JUDGE COMMENTED ON HOW WELL JUST ROSS MOVED (HE DID NOT SAY THAT HE HAD POOR MOVEMENT!)
HE ALSO COMMENTED ON HIS TOP LINE, GOOD CONFIRMATION AND SCOPEY JUMP.

 

[Anastasia]

Just_Ross, sorry if I reported incorrectly about your stallion. I must have picked up what they said wrong, as thought they felt his jump was better, but congratulations never the less..

 

[Anastasia]

Firm I thought that the they said the Marius one was the older fashioned type, but I may have misheard them, certainy dont think the Darco was anywhere near as heavy as the Marius one.

And yes they did say he got more beautiful as he jumped..

 

[ClaireT]

Echo what Just_Ross has said.
As you will see from this short video, he has super movement and I can't wait for my foal by him to arrive!

 

[firm]

Hi Claire
You must be very excited!!
Does Just Ross have a little bit of Cleveland Bay in him - Forest Royal Laird? I thought the poster on HH who is an avid CB fan would be pleased to hear

I can't remember who it is but I do remember the CB posts

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dali Van Overis Z (Dark Bay by Darco x Nimmerdor) - Owned by Des Le Marquand - JUDGES COMMENTS: One of the best stallions in type. Good attitude in the jumping and the jumping improved as he went on. Thought he may have got Licensed, but judges only awarded Registered.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this is interesting- "type".. this is another elusive quality. What do you think the judges meant by it here? Has the SSH settled down to a "type" yet? Shouldn't this just evolve?
I'm saying this as to me "type" sort of means those characteristics that match a pattern the judge has in his/her head, &amp; that aren't necessarily to do with function. Like, Arab "type"- dished face, high tail- an Arab could have perfect conformation and still lack type.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alleycat within the SSH Guidelines it does not specify any "type", but they are looking for a horse/pony that will hopefully have the ability to compete on an International stage.

The score sheets that I presume they will have used (I say this because they could have changed since I last saw them) will have looked at several areas of the horse and be scored between 1 and 10 - i.e. assessing qualities of head, neck, shoulder, back, line of the back, loins, body, legs (including tied in, sicked hocked etc, pasterns, feet etc).

For the movement they will look at length of stride, impulsion, elasticity and balance. For the jumping they will look at direction, quickness, fore leg technique, back technique, haunches, scope, elasticity and carefullness.

Type does evolve through time and people look for different things.

You just have to look through the main studbooks of past foundation stallions to what is standing at stud today, the horses have evolved, but because sport and breeders have pushed them to go this way. Hence why people always refer to heavier stallions as "old fashioned"....yet with ALL fashions (they always go full circle) there will probably come a time when the current warmblood will go too refined and then they will all be rushing out to get something to give them more bone again...