Stabled horses and the Animal Welfare Act...your thoughts??

SatansLittleHelper

SatansLittleHelper

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Just musing really but I wondered what people's thoughts are on horses that spend a lot of time stabled in relation to the AWA 2006.
It states that the horse must have "appropriate company" and be able to "express normal behaviours". So how does this fit in with horses who are kept stabled for a good proportion of the day? Obviously they are far from able to express normal behaviours and are alone??
I'm not stable bashing or anything like that, just genuinely curious :)
 
So how does this fit in with horses who are kept stabled for a good proportion of the day?
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It doesn't, and that's why a heck of a lot of horses who are kept in for long periods of time throughout the day develop stable vices and OCD behaviours.
 
I don't think they class as 'alone' when on a yard, they can all see one and other so I wouldn't class that as 'alone' personally, as even when mine are out they are in individual paddocks, so technically alone but they are surrounded by horses. My horses are stabled all the time at the min due to the awful weather and the fields being drenched, but they get turned out in the school on a night and rode when I go down, so get to go and have a blast around the school to let off some steam, which is 'experssing normal behaviours' although not in a natural environment... I don't think that Act is very applicable in this day and age.
 
Not all stabled horses are alone. Some actually share their stable with another, others have a partial wall between them and their neighbour, still others are kept in a barn system. I like ours to spend as much time as possible in the field but if weather dictates that they must stop in, at least they can interact with their neighbours, over the walls, which is no less than those horses which graze in individual paddocks. So not ideal but acceptable imo although I would not want that to be their only opportunity for interaction, when ours go out they are in shared fields. Roll on summer when they can spend all their time outside with company.
 
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The law states that, but does not state how long for. It can mean that it must get out an hour a day, or 15mins or 10 hours. There is no law on that because they know full well that it can not be a) appropriate for all horses b) policed at all. Hence just the suggestion that it should be able to. Also, company can be a human or any other animal. There are many lone horses about and it is not against the law to keep a horse alone.
 
SpringArising said:
Why not?
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Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
 
ljohnsonsj said:
Because how can it apply to every single horse. Competition horses for example, that are stabled majority of the time and get turned out in their own paddock. Their welfare is still obviously important to owners/grooms and they are kept better than majority of 'everyday' horses although if you just grouped it under this act, it would suggest that they aren't getting what they are supposed to be. (Wording isn't brill, i know what I mean but wasn't sure how to word it!)
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But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
 
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Queenbee said:
But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.
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Amen. I don't agree that a pampered competition horse is better looked after than a cob in field as part of a herd. A thick bed, big rugs and 3 feeds a day doesn't replace interaction with other horses, space to move about and freedom to be a horse - which they all are at the end of the day. Horses have been conditioned to adapt to the way they are now kept - doesn't mean it's good for them.

Other European countries have laws against horses being kept alone.
 
Queenbee said:
But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
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It isn't always a choice,many yards in my area only do individual turnout, they are next to each other and can groom each other over the fence, but can't actually get together. I personally don't think any horse either in a herd or turned out individually is any worse off than the other, as long as the said horse is happy and relaxed.
 
I often wondered about the size of the stable, I have seen horses who have little choice but to stand diagonally. One would think this would be something that could be in legislation.
How does this compare with legislation for zoo animals and poultry in cages, not sure, just asking.
Also, when I enforced dairy cow legislation the buildings had to be well ventilated, and natural lighting provided. This is not something that stables seem to consider. To keep animals in dark wet boxes with no outlook is not good husbandry, yet is seems to be allowed for horses. The stabling needs planning permission, should that not include these considerations if to be used for housing animals?
 
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Queenbee said:
But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.

I'm not quite sure if people with competition horses believe their horse will melt if it lives in any way like a horse should, but if turnout and socialisation with other horses is good enough for carl jesters competition horses then I'm pretty sure it won't harm other competition horses either.
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On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.
 
I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.
 
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A thick bed, big rugs and 3 feeds a day doesn't replace interaction with other horses, space to move about and freedom to be a horse
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But they are not getting what they are supposed to be getting.

Just because they have their own personal stable and their own personal field and are wrapped up in cotton woll, does NOT mean they are getting what they need. They don't get the opportunity for social interaction. I'm sorry but a competition horse is still just a horse and as such should have those basic needs met, just as any other horse should.
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Absolutely agree.

The most basic and fundamental thing any horse can have for their wellbeing and mental health is turnout and company. I despair at how long some horses are stabled for per day, and how their owners think it's completely fine and normal :(
 
If I were a horse I wouldn't want to be locked in a stable for any length of time. To me, that must feel similar to being locked up in a small utility room, enough room to lay down, get fed and watered, but what sort of quality of life is that?
Competition horse or not, every horse should be given the opportunity to express themselves and interact with others with lots of turnout. My little herd live out 24/7 with access to their stables (doors pinned open) if and when they choose.
I realise people on livery sometimes don't have the same freedom to choose this system, but at the very least they should ensure maximum turnout for their beloved horses.
 
What does make me laugh are those who feel the need to stable/rug up their horses at the slightest bit of rain! Mine is out 24/7 and even with access to field shelter chooses to stand outside come rain or shine or blizzards! It's what horses used to do and hence why they have their woolly coats in winter . They won't melt! I would rather see my boy running free in the rain than cooped up in a stable bored to death. Agree some horses are mollycoddled these days!

Obviously I'm not getting at those who don't have the advantage of any kind of turnout but I do find some people who choose to stable their horses tend to think they are giving their horses a better existence.
 
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LittleRoodolphRider said:
On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.
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You need to visit my herd of stallions and geldings living out peacefully together. Stallions turn out together rather well, provided they've not been turned into mental cases by being stabled 24/7.
 
Unfortunately we have 0 winter turnout so all my yards have been in since November. But I always ensure my boy is turned out in the school is free to roll and do horsey things, and that he has physical contact with another horse. I wouldn't go to a yard where individual turnout was I personally don't like it- although that be said my boy probably wouldn't care whether he was in a paddock full of horses or with none at all. He's quite the people horse!
 
It's a bad act IMO 'freedom to express normal behaviours' in means of course ,perch to scratch that sort of thing but we encourage curtailment of reproductive freedom and of natural aggression , it's normal for male animals to fight , make a complete mockery of each of the five freedoms if you set out to.
Then what's normal if you a native pony you could argue that 24/7 on a moor ( not much point of owning a pony in those conditions but that's natural living for them )
But a TB product of over three hundred year of selective breeding to run fast with no thought given to it being able to survive on it's own because people had a lot of imput into it's management , that's not so clear cut .
And then consider where 24/7 turned out horses are kept I am not at all sure the tiny mud filled paddocks I see on some yards are a good natural enviroment to live in and certainly they don't trump stabled with turnout and exercise .
Humans used to live in caves it was natural to us does not mean it's the best way to live now .
 
you have to dovetail the idea of the act,with why we have horses though................competition horses are part of an industry and have a job to do, their owners do not pay just to see them all happily mutual grooming in the field.

it is of course important to make each life as happy/healthy/natural as possible within the parameters of the horses intended use.

also as GS points out, all the people that smugly say "well my horses live out 24/7 so MUST be happier/more correctly kept than yours"................but actually have 4 ponies on a tiny mud pit with no shelter, need to think again!

i like mine to go out, but they go out in individual paddocks to minimise the risk of injury and are stabled overnight to allow better control of diet and fitness, which to my mind is an appropriate compromise.
 
ljohnsonsj said:
It isn't always a choice,many yards in my area only do individual turnout, they are next to each other and can groom each other over the fence, but can't actually get together. I personally don't think any horse either in a herd or turned out individually is any worse off than the other, as long as the said horse is happy and relaxed.
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don't get me wrong, I'm not against individual turnout. Currently my boy is on individual and grooms over the fence with other horses and sometimes has a paddle around in the mud with his neighbour Toucan. He's been a bit of a loner since he lost ebony so for him, it's fairly ideal... It's not something I'd have been happy about with my other horses and if ebony were still alive they would be in together. However, my reference is more for those competition horses that are boxed the majority of the time and have minimal turnout, or even a horse kept in a field completely without company in some cases none and little to no opportunity for any interaction.
 
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When I was at equine college (some 20 years ago) we all had to spend an hour in a small "stable", with no entertainment (i.e. no books etc). It certainly makes you think about stabling and when it is appropriate.

I now have a hairy cob who lives out 24/7, but I have known plenty of horses that wouldn't be happy with his current lifestyle, including some that were happier stabled in any bad weather (providing they had a large stable and other horses around them).
 
LittleRoodolphRider said:
On another note..if a lot of male racehorses and showjumpers ar stallions it is not safe to have them tuned out with other horses, they may fight with other stallions or geldings or get mares in foal. Yes turnout with companionship is the IDEAL but this is not always possible. I agree it is best and think what CH does is brilliant but I certainly wouldn't class stabled competition horses as cruel.
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Bonkers2 said:
I am totally pro turnout, but there are risks, broken legs among them.
NH racehorses tend to have very busy lives, they also usually sleep rather a lot, so except for very few, they seem to be OK in stabling, they usually get three months off in a field every year.
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I understand the reasoning behind it, and the belief that they are ok in stabling, however, when they leave their yard and go on to private homes, it would seem that in many cases they were not ok with their way of life, invariably there is a whole hornets nest of issues to resolve. Not all of these are a direct result of over stabling, but I doubt that some of the issues would be quite so bad if they were managed differently with regards to turnout and socialisation.

My point is not even about the physiological, it's about the mental state. I'm pro turnout of course, but I also realise that as much as we are individuals so are horses, there are those die hard owners who would turn out 24/7 regardless just because it's how horses live in the wild. My poor boy would break his heart... He loves to come in to his bed. My point is more that, just because it suits owners to keep competition horses stabled the majority of their lives, we have a duty of care to think of the mental and emotional impact this has on the animal. To some extent yes, we should try and enable them to live as a horse, for this is what they are. We should respect that, I believe that in doing so we will get a better more healthy and productive animal, with less ailments, issues and vices. It may be that vices and issues is a trade off that a competition home is happy to put up with, but personally, a lifestyle that may contribute to ulcers, weaving, cribbing, soundness or mental issues is not something that we as horse owners (leisure or competitive) should be happy to risk.

It's very difficult, as I've already said, horses are individuals and so there is no one template that fits, saying a horse should have x amount of turnout, or turnout with a companion - may not suit some horses, and it may be completely impractical for the owner - but it should always be about what is best for the horse, to the best of our ability we should do whatever we can to meet the needs of the horse as an individual.
 
Queenbee said:
I understand the reasoning behind it, and the belief that they are ok in stabling, however, when they leave their yard and go on to private homes, it would seem that in many cases they were not ok with their way of life, invariably there is a whole hornets nest of issues to resolve. Not all of these are a direct result of over stabling, but I doubt that some of the issues would be quite so bad if they were managed differently with regards to turnout and socialisation.
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The problem with ex racehorses very often is that the people who buy them don't have the facilities or the ability to work with them, this is the reason why the various charities take racehorses in and re hab them.
We had one or two who who could never have gone on to be re habbed, we were often able to keep them in training, but in the end we did not send those ones to public auction sales.
I am not wanting to get in to an argument about ex racehorses, just saying that a lot of people buy horses that are not suitable for them, often because they are cheap.
Some racehorses do get daily turnout, but most NH horses get more exercise than most happy hackers, they are out of the stable in the morning [60 - 90 mins and in the afternoon 20-25mins.
 
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PS Some trainers do turn them out, I have worked in both types of yards and dont see any difference with the "happiness", in fact the ones that had no turnout were looked after better generally. I think that was general management being poor in the yard that did turnout: their horses were turned out whether they liked it or not, and some did not.
 
I am very pro turnout. Mine get turned out every day for at least 10 hours and are out 24/7 for at least 7 months of the year.

However, I think there are horses who cope with little turnout very well and even enjoy it. You have to judge each case on its mertis. My share horse is pretty anti-social. He's in a very settled herd of 6 geldings which hasn't changed for about 8 years (along with my horse who's in the middle of everything and is everybody's friend) but he's always on the fringes, doesn't like horses in 'his' space and interacts very rarely. I've seen him groom one of his fieldmates (the same one - an old, almost blind, very unthreatening boy) twice in 8 years.

When he was on 5 months box rest, he was happy as larry in a little pen in the corner of the field in the day and in his stable overnight (the others were stabled overnight too as it was winter). As he got ready to go back into the field, we gradually made his pen bigger and he spent more and more time in there (now spring so other horses out 24/7). When we put him back in the field, he spent the first three days trying to get back into his pen. He didn't want the others anywhere near him. He's actually scared of them which is why he doesn't want them near him. His herd have found a way to manage him, they leave him alone and he keeps out of trouble, but he would be totally happy on his own with just humans for company.

Mine on the other hand...I'd have hm PTS rather than put him on box rest - even a couple of hours late for being turned out turns him from Victor Meldrew (grumpy but harmless) into Hannibal Lecter (psycho who wants to eat humans). I know he'd never settle so if he couldn't be fixed in the field, it's not something I'm prepared to put him through.
 
Maybe if the act was enforced then livery yards would have to be organised differently to fit in with the horse's needs. I think that problems with injuries during turnout are going to happen much more often when stabled horses are just turned out an hour a day to stretch their legs or where horses are turned out with different companions on a regular basis rather than when they have settled into a stable herd where everyone is sure of their position in the herd ranking.
 
Bonkers2 said:
The problem with ex racehorses very often is that the people who buy them don't have the facilities or the ability to work with them, this is the reason why the various charities take racehorses in and re hab them.
We had one or two who who could never have gone on to be re habbed, we were often able to keep them in training, but in the end we did not send those ones to public auction sales.
I am not wanting to get in to an argument about ex racehorses, just saying that a lot of people buy horses that are not suitable for them, often because they are cheap.
Some racehorses do get daily turnout, but most NH horses get more exercise than most happy hackers, they are out of the stable in the morning [60 - 90 mins and in the afternoon 20-25mins.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not against racing, or arguing against it, you are very correct, many people simply don't have the knowledge or the facilities to re-hab such horses, but this is just one factor, the fact is that many horses need rehabbing, there is a difference between rehab and retraining, all racehorses would need retraining, but rehabbing is dealing with physiological and yes sometimes behavioural issues that arise, not just from the racing but also from the way they have been kept. It's commendable how stringent you have been about passing horses on, I only wish others would do the same, I was only talking last week to a trainer and discussing this silly issue - why do people feel that a horse has to go on to do a new job, for example Kauto Star, or even continue racing - Best Mate, why not find them a slot in a less pressurised situation Where they can continue their lifestyle in a less pressurised situation - for example as a nanny on the gallops etc, of course not all horses can do this, but sometimes the expectation that these horses would be happier being pushed to do something else is a little bit bonkers to me (but then that's a whole different thread and I am digressing!)

With regards to the level of work that the horses do, being out in a field is not the same thing, to my mind just because a horse has done a significant amount of exercising does not mean that they should not have some turnout, a time to just be themselves, have. Good roll, eat some grass, buck and fart a bit, socialise if it's appropriate or possible, but to me, exercise, field time and stable time are three completely different things.
 
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