Stabling issues - at wit's end!

[Starbo]

Hoping there will be some suggestions as I'm really at the end of my tether.

My mare has been living out all summer and about two weeks ago, she was brought in for the winter, and she is really struggling to settle in her stable. She generally does exhibit stress behaviour like weaving and box walking but in the past it has been manageable and after a few days in her stable it goes away for the most part. Unfortunately for whatever reason, this autumn it really hasn't stopped and she is worse than ever.

I need to look at addressing the root problem, and while I will look into ulcers (while she isn't exhibiting any obvious signs, it wouldn't surprise me if she is prone to them because of her stress behaviours), I want to explore some other options.

Some general thoughts:

* Magnesium calmers don't work on her - I've tried the Hack Up Bespoke supplements with no great success (unfortunately, as I've heard great things about them)

* I'm going to look at diet as well - at the minute she's just on a standard mix with some Alpha A and haylage, but aware that diet can make a big difference

* Behaviourists - is this something a behaviourist could help with? If so, does anyone have any recommendations for one who travels to Hertfordshire?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

Do you have to stable her is my first question?

 

[Starbo]

Do you have to stable her is my first question?

Ideally yes...Unless I absolutely can't find a solution, I might be able to convince the yard to let her live out but it's not really the ideal set up. And I should mention that I live in London, so yards with fields where a horse can live out but still have nice facilities are few and far between.

 

[Equi]

Standard mix is high in sugar, alpha A is also quite nutritious and sugary and haylage is higher in sugars and nutrients than hay. Have you tried magox rather than a calmer with it in it? How long is she getting out of the stable for? No chance of moving? Even a turnout paddock, can be bare or whatever, will help.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If you take her off alfalfa and haylage you will probably find that she is like a different animal.

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

As already suggested change her diet and could you invest in a stable mirror?

 

[chillipup]

Do you have to stable her is my first question?

This ^^^

Are you now stabling her 24/7? does she get any turnout? if so for how long? It sounds like she would be much happier and less stressed being out rather than in.

chillipup

 

[wkiwi]

Stereotypic behaviour (as it sounds she is showing) never completely goes away once developed.
as above, a mirror has been shown by research to reduce weaving.

Can you work out what is different this time to when she was last in a stable and did settle? Is she missing a favourite companion or next to one she doesn't feel comfortable with? Also have you tried a busier or quieter part of the yard (depends on horses preference)? There is some research on window number/position having benefits too, but can't remember the details off the top of my head.

Look up 'enrichment' programmes for pther ideas on how to reduce stereotypic behaviour. Grills between horses, giving different forages in haynets round the box, toys (although some horses won't play with them after the first show of interest), even root vegetables and things can help.

What not to do - don't use weaving grills or anything else physical to stop the behaviour, as this actually increases the stress of the horse (again, there are research articles out there to prove this). As you have found, calmers are unlikely to work on this type of behaviour (as it is believed that the neurological pathways involved are similar to those created in drug-addicts i.e. the behaviour is inherently rewarding and the horse does it as a coping mechanism) although short-term use can help reduce stress for some horses with new situations.
Best wishes

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses who are stressy with stables must spend part of everyday in the stable if you are going to have any chance of managing this issue .
So that's every day all summer .
It's mad to leave a stressy in the stable horse out all summer and then expect it to accept stabling in winter .
Things I would do now ,
Mirror .
Experimenting with different stables on the yard.
Work ,lots of work , lots of long slow work ,working twice a day using the walker if the yard has one .
Feeding lots of different types of forage .
Strict roultine .
And as much turn out as possible .
You might have to question if the mare is suitable for you if you can't get her calm and happy and you are fixed in where and how you must keep her by circumtances outside your control.
Next summer stable her part of everyday I wait until the flies are awful then catch them gradually they learn they get respite in the stable and I have had two who I have turned round completely doing this .

 

[Ladyinred]

Horses who are stressy with stables must spend part of everyday in the stable if you are going to have any chance of managing this issue .
So that's every day all summer .
It's mad to leave a stressy in the stable horse out all summer and then expect it to accept stabling in winter .
Things I would do now ,
Mirror .
Experimenting with different stables on the yard.
Work ,lots of work , lots of long slow work ,working twice a day using the walker if the yard has one .
Feeding lots of different types of forage .
Strict roultine .
And as much turn out as possible .
You might have to question if the mare is suitable for you if you can't get her calm and happy and you are fixed in where and how you must keep her by circumtances outside your control.
Next summer stable her part of everyday I wait until the flies are awful then catch them gradually they learn they get respite in the stable and I have had two who I have turned round completely doing this .

Some great advice here. I would also get her straight off the sugary foods she is currently having and feed her non-molassed forage based feed. Fast Fibre, speedi-beet, and a straw based chop. Give her a couple of smaller nets of hay in two different places in her stable so she sees something slightly different whilst eating.

I expect changing from the sugary mixes will give you a result faster than you could imagine.

 

[MissTyc]

Some great advice already given -- the other thing I suggest is to build up to the time you want her in rather than expect her to cope with it right away.
I have one who is not fond of the stable, so I bring him in with a head torch after dark and put him out first ... The following week I make it a little earlier and a little later. I have 3-4 GRIM weeks, it's true, but by then he doesn't seem to notice that he's coming in with the other and going out with them. If you try that at the start he gets furious and stressy.

He does now live out 24/7, however, and is a reformed character who quite enjoys the odd night in when the weather is supervilefoul, possibly because it's now just respite and he knows he will go back out the next day.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

As you have found, calmers are unlikely to work on this type of behaviour (as it is believed that the neurological pathways involved are similar to those created in drug-addicts i.e. the behaviour is inherently rewarding and the horse does it as a coping mechanism) although short-term use can help reduce stress for some horses with new situations.
Best wishes

That is reay interesting!
I had a WelshxTB mare who we eventually (after many trials and tribulations) found was intolerant of all cereals and refined sugars. I have always said that she was like a junkie , looking for the next fix. And when we took the problem foods out of her diet, we did it in one fell swoop, which I wouldn't do again, with a horse which was so reactive over such a long time, she was just like a drug addict going cold turkey. So if this horse's behaviours are related in some part to her diet, that owuld make complete sense.

 

[DabDab]

Horses who are stressy with stables must spend part of everyday in the stable if you are going to have any chance of managing this issue .
So that's every day all summer .
It's mad to leave a stressy in the stable horse out all summer and then expect it to accept stabling in winter .
Things I would do now ,
Mirror .
Experimenting with different stables on the yard.
Work ,lots of work , lots of long slow work ,working twice a day using the walker if the yard has one .
Feeding lots of different types of forage .
Strict roultine .
And as much turn out as possible .
You might have to question if the mare is suitable for you if you can't get her calm and happy and you are fixed in where and how you must keep her by circumtances outside your control.
Next summer stable her part of everyday I wait until the flies are awful then catch them gradually they learn they get respite in the stable and I have had two who I have turned round completely doing this .

This is really good advice. The only other thing would be, if you can manage it, to have her in the stable for an hour or so, then ride, then return to the stable for the night with a small feed, as this can help settle them. Also make sure you have very strict routines for everything that you do with the horse in the stable - feed, rug up etc. always in the same order, pick out feet in the same order, put everything in the same place, go through the same routine when you leave etc. Just to give her some routines around the stable to latch onto and feel a little more secure.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

There are yards which allow 24/7 turnout, mine included, which sounds like the best solution rather than having her stressed. I think I'd be looking for such a yard.

 

[wkiwi]

That is reay interesting!
I had a WelshxTB mare who we eventually (after many trials and tribulations) found was intolerant of all cereals and refined sugars. I have always said that she was like a junkie , looking for the next fix. And when we took the problem foods out of her diet, we did it in one fell swoop, which I wouldn't do again, with a horse which was so reactive over such a long time, she was just like a drug addict going cold turkey. So if this horse's behaviours are related in some part to her diet, that owuld make complete sense.

Sorry, actually meant it in relation to stereotypic behaviour, not the diet.
I am not aware of any research where diet intolerance leads to activation of the same sort of pathways in the brain, but maybe someone else could provide a link/reference?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Sorry, actually meant it in relation to stereotypic behaviour, not the diet.
I am not aware of any research where diet intolerance leads to activation of the same sort of pathways in the brain, but maybe someone else could provide a link/reference?

Yes, I realised that but was making the link in my own mind of the possibility that her stereotypies and the stress that leads to them come from the possible problems caused by OP's horse's diet.

Possibly a link too far?

 

[wkiwi]

Yes, I realised that but was making the link in my own mind of the possibility that her stereotypies and the stress that leads to them come from the possible problems caused by OP's horse's diet.

Possibly a link too far?

You never know, but the only nutrition-stereotypy link I can think of is the one regarding crib-biting. So, maybe a link too far or maybe the research hasn't found it yet (or of course I just may not have read it), although I don't think dietary changes in general have been specific in reducing stereotypy other than as it being another stressor to add to the pile of domestic life for a horse??

 

[Doublethyme]

I have a mare like this. Sadly used to be fine stabled but had a massive scare when she was 3 with a visiting homeless man (long story he wasn't out to hurt her but she didn't see it like that and had an extreme reaction to him sleeping in the barn).

Anyway overnight I had a horse that could weave so fast it was awful, she wouldn't stay in her stable. Had to live out for a few weeks in middle of winter and took an hour and my old mare going in the stable first(foaling box) to even consider going in.

it was heartbreaking and frustrating and I planned to find a 24/7 winter turnout option for her but have a retired old girl also who prefers to be stabled.

Therefore after mirror, clicker training, calmers, horse communicator. ....all of which helped slightly, I did the thing I should have done in the first place. I got permission from YO to take down a panel board between the stressed mare and my old girl so they have an open window.

Instantly the mare was massively better. It was like a switch. It has taken longer to really get her liking her stable. She now mostly happily stables overnight. When she is stressed she will always go to the window instead of the door which helps the weaving.

I do have a weave grid on the door as at her worst she threatened to rear over. Much against my beliefs but weirdly it helps her relax....don't ask me how but it does.

Anyway my advice would be if at all possible get windows in her box where she can see and even better touch another horse.

Has worked for my ultra stress head mare.

I do like Goldenstars post though and a kick up the backside for me next summer, as I admit I tend to ignore the issue over summer when out 24/7 and it doesn't help coming back to winter routine.

I do find keeping the routine set for bedtime helps. My mare always has her nut ball already in stable for her and prefers to walk in on her own not with the handler going in first. However this is probably left over from the homelesd man trying to go in her box to get rugs to sleep on and her busting out of the box in fear (she was found loose on yard in morning). She doesn't like going in the box if someone is already in stable.