Stallion Grading.... AES or SHB GB?

Foxfolly

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I'm not sure I dare post this but, I really want to know what I need to do as we're breaking him in now!

Has anyone put a stallion through grading procedure for either of these stub books?

If so please can I have some feed back on your experiences and also what level I need to get my boy to before we try!

He has a SHB GB passport but his father is fully licenced with both AES and SHB GB

He will be 5 next year and is being broken at present. Only just got on his back. But he does loose school well and seen him loose jumped over approx 1m20 which he does quite happily and calmly. (Not sure if this is relevant but I figured I might get asked what he is doing now!)

Can I present him for grading without having to jump him under saddle as a 5yo?

I have looked on both webistes and it seems that AES he will have to jump under saddled (But at what height?)
I read it on SHB that it is at the option of the owner. So if I chose not to would that put me at a disadvantage?
The only reason I ask is that I am so rusty (2years off affiliated competing due to my eventer being injured then me, and now him again!!) that I would probably need to get someone else to ride him!

Please lets not turn this into a stallion bashing again like my last post, I just need the facts! I am trying to do everything the way people have advised and get him graded!!
 

AmyMay

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abbie77

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well why say it then ? we dont have our hanoverian stallion graded as we personally dont see the point he will still only be available to certain mares regardless is it really worth spending the money having him graded with a studbook after you have had him done they will put certain criteria on using him as a stallion anyway so unless you are prepared to meet these rules i personally would just enjoy him as he is good luck
 

Foxfolly

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[ QUOTE ]
well why say it then ? we dont have our hanoverian stallion graded as we personally dont see the point he will still only be available to certain mares regardless is it really worth spending the money having him graded with a studbook after you have had him done they will put certain criteria on using him as a stallion anyway so unless you are prepared to meet these rules i personally would just enjoy him as he is good luck

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of interest how do you register your boys offspring?
 

Foxfolly

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Well genetics say he does... but just not on paper!!
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Is it right there is a register with Weatherbys for stallions? If so does anyone know how I can find out more so that I can at least register my chaps first offspring (If all geos well due July 09) with his name on the passport!
 

sallyf

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There is the non TB register but to register him with this we will need to be bloodtyped and vetted before he will be accepted.
Then to register foals with Weatherbys the mare will need to be registered and bloodtyped with them as well.
You will not get any parentage verified with them either unless the mare is TB when they will verify her side but not his.
If he is accepted you will be able to get covering certificates for him.
Do beware though Weatherbys will not let newly registered stallions cover by AI any more.
There are new rules and regulations for stallions from this year.
 

joeathh

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Hi FF
I have looked into quite a few different gradings when I considered it for my boy. For me at the moment I only plan to use him for my own mares, I probably will grade him in the future, it seems a lot of expense to go through grading and lic every year for myself. I spoke to the AES and they said I can get papers beacuse dam and sire are full pedigree pink papered AES - with a note from the vet that foal is by/out of them I get full pedigree papers (not sure if pink but all pedigree is on there) - I don't need a covering certificate, sometimes you need to DNA test to prove if vet won't give you a letter.

You have options of AES, SHB GB, SSH and Equicours and overstamp with the one you grade with. I think also BWBS or whatever the new name is maybe an option under BSHR but not really a jumping book. AES and Equicours he will have to jump a course under saddle I think 5 yr olds it's 1.1m average with two fences at 1.25m. SHB GB and I think BWBS it's ridden section then jumping can be loose or not at all. Scottish sports horse I think is not ridden at all in any phase but they are considering changing this - they might not have for next year though - Hope this helps
 

koeffee

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yes wetherbys do take non tbs, they go through a vetting seen lunged for wind various other stuff and cost around £500 get in touch with them they will give you all the details.
i would try him aes personally. my stallion is not graded but he is medium trained dressage horse and being full trakenher his foals are elegible for part bred papers(so im told?)
 

gregforrest

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Whichever stud book you choose - go to the grading prepared. If possible go and watch a grading before taking your boy.
Our eldest stallion is approved by both the stud books you mention.
He was our first stallion and we chose to have him graded with SHB(GB) because they would be strict on things like confirmation / movement as at the end of the day if your stallion is to stand at stud publically it is supposed to improve the horse population. You have to send the colt back a year later with them for reassessment.
Because he is a jumper we also wanted to be graded with a more jumping orientated stud book, hence why we chose the AES when he was a bit older.
Both have worked for us - I would not criticise either as we have sourced customers from both societies' mare owners. Equally there are other stud books out there so it all comes down to personal preference etc.
 

Fahrenheit

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Basically... as a 5yo

SHB he will have to be presented inhand for his conformation and trotted up inhand, then ridden under saddle and over fences (height put up as judges/riders discretion until judges have seen enough) and then seen loose over fences.

AES he will have to be presented inhand for conformation and trot up and then either jump a course of fences under saddle at 1.15 (i believe) OR if going as a Dressgae stallion perform a FEI 5yo dressage test (although they probably won't make you perform the test but just walk trot and canter on both reins). They only perform loose jumping as 2 and 3yos with the AES.

Hope that helps!!
 

Foxfolly

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[ QUOTE ]
Should have added this link - I think this is where studbooks have to recognise breeding of foal if parents are in main section of studbook but not graded (point 12). I might have it completely wrong - Ciss would know though, she was there ! One day I'll understand it all, I've just got to try harder
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http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/horses/pdf/minutes160805.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting just not sure how I could apply this with ours..

Stallion is SHB GB and mare is AES!! Any ideas?
 

timmy1977

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i think its just a case of going to one of those gradings and giving it a go, mines going to be doing it next year too. and if they fail we just have to come to the decision as to wether you breed foals with no papers or get the stallion cut. personally ill get mine cut sell him on and look for another young colt if mine fails.
 

joeathh

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I guess it would be worth contacting AES, I emailed Marguerite Gaskin-Taylor (main email on website) she was very helpful. She may be able to help if you overstamp with AES (as I think the DNA database is accessible by all
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and why each society accepts covering certificates from other studbooks). I contacted SHB GB but I think with them it would be basic identity if stallion not graded - I don't know if that's changed with the directive if that was what it was for? I might be completely wrong but it's worth an email, I guess.

I basically wanted pedigree info to do futurity in the future. You need sire and dam on pedigree to enter - but as it is the futurity is possibly going to change in 2010 - 2012 anyway to progeny of graded sire and dams only so I'll probably be too late and need to grade him
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abbie77

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we dont its that simple he will never be up for public stud and will only be used on limited mares at the end of the day does it really matter just be prepared the best you can
 

Ciss

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[ QUOTE ]
Should have added this link - I think this is where studbooks have to recognise breeding of foal if parents are in main section of studbook but not graded (point 12). I might have it completely wrong - Ciss would know though, she was there ! One day I'll understand it all, I've just got to try harder
grin.gif


[url="http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/horses/pdf/minutes160805.pdf[/url]"]http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/horses/pdf/minutes160805.pdf
[/url]

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Yes this is good old section X, which was put in there because Dr Fussl says everything must have a passport from a studbook if both parents have original pedigree papers / passport issued by that studbook even if neither parents are grared ansd it is a condition of registration that one or more parents have to be graded (with me so far<sigh>?).

What a horse with Section X cannot do -- nor can any of its progeny -- is progress to the main breeding studbook (ie the one with all the bells, whistles and grading procedures) becuase it is not the product of one or more main studbook parents (still with me?).

So if you want to condemn anything you breed -- or anything bred from it in future -- to the prospect of permanent exclusion from the main studbook just becuase you do not/cannot present it for grading, then go ahead but remeber that people get what they pay for and they are certainly not usually prepared to pay anything like a price that gives a breeder a fair return when buying a Section X animal.

BTW, all this came about becuase compulsory passports means that all equines in the food chain (ie all equines as far as the EU is concerned) must have a UELN so that their history can be chased and in many EU countries (unlike the UK) there are no equivalent ID-only PIOs to deal with such a situation relating to unpedigreed horses or those bred from non-approved parents -- so I supsoe they do have their uues sometimes!
 

sallyf

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God that is confusing.
So are you saying that an ungraded stallion cant have studbook foals whatever or that if an ungraded stallion has one graded parent they can
 

southsidestud

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i would advise that you go to watch a grading AES next one will be Nov time its a good experience (to see whats being entered) whether it passes and what they do ect ect i watch Aprils as i want to take mine next year but im also going to watch Novs too
 

koeffee

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equicours have a grading this month on the 19th pop along and see how they do it, will give you a heads up on how they are prepared.
 

Ciss

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[ QUOTE ]
[Interesting just not sure how I could apply this with ours..

Stallion is SHB GB and mare is AES!! Any ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't apply -- as you say not in the same studbook of birth.
 

Ciss

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[ QUOTE ]
God that is confusing.
So are you saying that an ungraded stallion cant have studbook foals whatever or that if an ungraded stallion has one graded parent they can

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite! If an ungraded/unapproved stallion covers an ungraded/unapproved mare with birth papers/original passport from the same studbook then that studbook MUST give them a passport stating the breeding (ie register them). However, becuase neither parent is graded neither the offspring NOR any of its descendants will be eligible for grading into or regsitering with the studbook section proper becuase bascially the pedigree does not fit the breeding rules of the main section of the studbook. However, in order to accomodate these excluded animals a special section -- what we call Section X in this country -- has to be created to give them a UELN number and home.
 

Foxfolly

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Definitely want to be able to register the foals, if possible and the mare won't grade as she is unlevel from an injury.... correct me if I'm wrong!

Ciss..... can you answer my query about the jumping? Would you recommend me getting someone else to ride him if I am not confident at that leve myself?

I just want to make sure I give him the best possible chance to getting through a grading as i do see it as the best way to go! If I was only breeding to sell our own stock once it was produced then I wouldn't bother, but I would like for hm to be able to stand publicly as I have already had a lot of people enquiring about him just from the fact they have heard through the grape vine about him! We have not advertised him and don't intend to yet!!
 

Wisnette

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[ QUOTE ]
If an ungraded/unapproved stallion covers an ungraded/unapproved mare with birth papers/original passport from the same studbook then that studbook MUST give them a passport stating the breeding (ie register them). However, becuase neither parent is graded neither the offspring NOR any of its descendants will be eligible for grading into or regsitering with the studbook section proper

[/ QUOTE ]

I think different studbooks must have different rules regarding the decendants because that certainly isn't the case with the KWPN.

Foals from register B mares CAN get full foalbook papers. If the sire of the foal is KWPN approved and the sire of the Reg B mare is KWPN approved or registered in the foalbook then bingo, that generation is back in the "studbook section proper".
 
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