stallion numbers

[TarrSteps]

Just out of curiosity, piqued by the number of threads on here about the "business" of standing sport stallions, does anyone know if there are statistics on how many mares stallions in the UK average per year? Apparently the average in North America is something like 10 mares per stallion per season, including stallion owners own mares and race horses, some of which have huge books.

Which, if you work it out, is pretty sobering information. It means most sport stallions hardly get any outside mares in a season. It seems that many people really do go in expecting at the very least stallions will cover their costs but looking at the numbers, even that much income is unusual. Is it REALLY so different in the UK?

(Don't get me wrong, many of my best friends are stallion owners and well aware of what they're up to. I just wonder if people coming in to the world of stallion ownership are aware of the realities of the situation and that they'll likely be doing it for love, not money.)

 

[AndyPandy]

We did a little bit of data gathering & statistical work a while ago, and the average number of mares bred to stallions in the UK was... 6 (yes, six... well, actually it was 5.8, but we'll call it 6). It's crazy!

 

[KenRehill]

I think I'm right in saying that last year Twemlows collected semen from over 100 different stallions, and I believe that they inseminated around 600 mares with the semen of over 250 stallions. So each stallion averaged around 2 and a bit mares, although some would have got substantially more than others.

Many believe that own stallion equals free semen, but it doesn't. As any dragon will tell you, the cost of keep, competitions etc etc, actually make the semen quite expensive. In fact it would have been financially more prudent to use a top 100 stallion and have foals that are actually worth something, thus to use the "free stallion" actually costs the owner money in the end.

"I won't invest, so I'm out!"

 

[Anastasia]

Ken that is a very good point you make about having your own stallion. To keep a stallion in competition with a rider (if you are not lucky enough to be super talented to take it to the top yourself) costs thousands each year!

This is why we only have the one stallion and use AI for the rest of our mares. We may perhaps go down the line of having a 2nd stallion in the future, but its A LOT more hassle than people think!

I would rather walk a mile barefoot over hot coals than try and find a rider!!

 

[Anastasia]

TarrSteps to answer your question...I have not seen one UK Studbook that actively reports on the amount of mares each of the graded stallions have. Unlike the KWPN who provide statistics each year on the amount of mares plus the amount of foals born.

I think it would make very good reading if there was such a list in the UK.

 

[volatis]

SHB should have a list? As they certainly do the fetility stats to award the King George??? Cup for the highest percentage fertility.

 

[Anastasia]

V do they actually publish the figures or do they just use it for their own use to give the award?

I know the SSH keep the stats on their stallions each year, and these are given to members who attend the annual AGM. However, they are not published anywhere else.

 

[TarrSteps]

Well, any studbook would technically have the data since they have breeding reports and technology would presumably make it easy to crunch the numbers. Which makes it all the more interesting that the information is not readily available.

I'm not surprised, really. First off, don't you think stallion owners would scream? Not to mention that books make their money from having the most people involved possible so the publication of sobering statistics would hardly be good for business!

 

[Anastasia]

I have to say because our stallions were graded through the SSH system, it does not bother me in the slightest who knows what mares he has covered, so to make it public knowledge would not be a problem for myself. As I say the figures are distributed at the annual AGM so people know the information.

Yes as a stallion owner you want to have a lot of mares to your stallion, but what I think is more important is the quality of the offspring, not the quantity...

 

[Maesfen]

Interesting that Weatherbys have always published stallion returns in their Stallion Book, from I think, the year dot and I think it behoves other societies to do the same.
I know of someone last year who was thrilled their stallion had got a paying mare in foal, the only mare that was covered by him while at a semen collection yard at some great cost to himself. Nothing unusual in that except that it was a Grade A, with a pro rider and kept entire only because they thought it would pay for itself, even possibly fill up their coffers a bit too. Poor deluded fools.

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry, that was a rather blanket statement and came across as unfair!

But then again you seem a reasonable person with a good, realistic grasp of the industry. I also agree with your quality over quantity expectation. But I suspect some people with less than successful stallions, especially if they've done a lot of talking, might not want people to know they're not getting any outside mares because they feel it would put people off. (I would argue people are already put off - hence the no mares - but not sure if the actual owners of the horses would agree!)

I think it's a bit like pricing horses on "potential" - people who don't have real performance and progeny results to promote on are keen to keep the illusion going as long as possible, perhaps knowing it will come to an end but not wanting to let go of the dream. People who are actually out there competing their stallions or their offspring successfully don't have to worry because they know their stallions will prove themselves on their own merits.

I was thinking more for people coming in - would the dream survive if more people knew the reality? But then I guess that's what keeps people buying lottery tickets!

 

[sallyf]

Weatherbys do show stallion returns in there stallion books but only for either GSB or NTR registered mares.
The normal sport/horse pony type mares dont show.

 

[Maggie2]

The IDHS(GB) used to, and probably still do, publish a list which also shows the sex of the foals, twins, and if the mare died before foaling etc.

SHB Fertility award was the Henry Tudor Cup, and again they used to show in their catalgues (when they had only TB stallions,) the number of mares covered in the preceeding seasons.

Useful information IMO. Interesting to see where mare owners sent a high number of their mares, so that a stallion that may have had a lower placing was, despite that, well used by mare owners.

 

[volatis]

When the orginal BHD was in existance, they used to publish the top ten covering stallions by discipline in their annual book

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]
Weatherbys do show stallion returns in there stallion books but only for either GSB or NTR registered mares.
The normal sport/horse pony type mares dont show.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point S, that as a pure 'breed society', Weatherbys have always done this, but I agree, that with now so many different types being bred to TBs, that also, don't use Weatherbys for registering their stock so their returns are not sent in, then some of the figures are gong to not be as complete as they should be but they will still give a very good indication of stallion usage and results, which is the least we should expect from other registering societies IMV.

 

[sallyf]

your right they do but with a stallion such as my small stallion Weatherbys will only show him as having covered around 6 or 7 mares a year when in fact he covers between 20 and 30 ina normal year.
It does give a fair indication of fertility though although these are fiddled by some studs who cover a lot of there own mares.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not seen one UK Studbook that actively reports on the amount of mares each of the graded stallions have.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Irish Draught Horse Society does. Every year in the Yearbook - for each RID stallion - it lists the numbers of mares covered, live foals, dead/slipped foals etc along with conception rate and Live rate. It also breaks down the breeds of mares covered (RID, AID, SID, TB/3/4 TB, IDxTB, and 'other breeds'.) It gives the same breakdown for IDSH stallions.

The cuirrent Yearbook (new issue out in the Spring) has the breakdown for the 2006 covering season and it is certainly true that some stallions get relatively few mares. In the RID stallions, the smallest number of mares was 1, several 2's, - the highest was 32. Of 37 RID stallions, only 5 covered more than 20 mares. In the IDSH stallions (only 9 stallions listed) 3 covered only one mare and the highest scorer was 12. The overall average was 9.67 mares per stallion.

 

[TarrSteps]

Very interesting about the RID. Is that only a list of stallions who actively covered that year or is it a list of all approved (or whatever the term is for RID) stallions of breeding age, regardless of whether they bred a mare or not?

How many foals are born into the RID book every year? (I always think that's an interesting basic statistic - number of foals conceived or born, depending on how you want to figure it, divided by number of approved stallions.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting about the RID. Is that only a list of stallions who actively covered that year or is it a list of all approved (or whatever the term is for RID) stallions of breeding age, regardless of whether they bred a mare or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

It includes all the stallions for whom the covering book was returned. If they're not actively used at stud then they're not included (not much point having a line of blanks!) And the term for RID is RID - that is - a pure-bred Irish Draught who has graded AS RID - passing both a conformation inspection and a VERY comprehensive vetting. Failed IDs can be G2 ID or similar - but they are NOT listed (they can't be excluded from the stud book - but they CAN be swept under the carpet!

[ QUOTE ]
How many foals are born into the RID book every year? (I always think that's an interesting basic statistic - number of foals conceived or born, depending on how you want to figure it, divided by number of approved stallions.

[/ QUOTE ]

The total number of foals recorded as born to IDHS Graded stallions in 2006 was 328 - from 445 mares covered. Obviously some mare owners don't complete their returns (particularly with 'other breed' mares.)

The frightening number was the number of RID mares bred to RID stallions - only 114 in 2006! Of course there are rather more born in Ireland, but it's still an awfully small number for one of our 'traditional' breeds.

 

[TarrSteps]

Excellent, JanetGeorge, thanks very much! Just piecing together my view of the UK breeding scene.

 

[shirleyno2]

I have a variety of stallions, my least popular one has done 3 mares, most popular on about 36 at moment - and still collecting. the chestnut ones are the least popular!
edit to add, I wouldn't neccessarily expect the young ones to get mares mares in 1st season at stud, some are busy enough though!!!