Stallions and collection techniques................AP please

[cruiseline]

Regarding ground collection, as a follow on from the thread posted by Stinkybomb

Is teaching a stallion to ground collect easier than dummy collect, also it looks like a safer option as you haven't got front legs waving around and a rather large beasty on his hind legs most of the time. Also I have heard of horror stories of stallions slipping and falling off the dummy, with fatalities.

Also is the size of ejaculation the same as for dummy collection, it looks like a bit of an awkward position for the stallion to be in.

What are you thoughts.

 

[casey2312]

I wanted to know this too..

 

[AndyPandy]

I wouldn't say I could give a universal "yes it's easier" or "no it's not" with regards to dummy training vs ground training. This most recent chap took 2 x 10 minute attempts before he was trained, and was the easiest so far. I've had another one that took 3 days to train, and broke one of my AVs in the process (and almost my hand) by repeatedly kicking until he finally realised "Oh! Actually, that's rather nice".

(For that reason, I would recommend that if anyone wishes to go down that route, they get a professional or someone familiar with ground training, to help you).

Obviously, beyond that, there are other stallions who -cannot- be ground trained, but these are normally boys who have been naturally covering, or dummy collecting for a long while, and find it nearly impossibly to break the association between having the penis stimulated and being on their back legs

Ground collection is probably the safest option for the stallion, and once trained, one of the safest options for those handling and collecting (as you say, no front feel flailing around). It also puts far less stress on their back and hind legs than dummy collecting. It does put a little more stress on the AV handler's back though

and that person must be strong and careful of their toes, and some stallions thrust -very- hard indeed, and some will hop forward as they do it.

In terms of the ejaculate, ground collections produce semen of comparable quality to dummy/mount collections. It generally takes the same number of thrusts to achieve an ejaculation, so there doesn't appear to be any problem with "awkward" or "uncomfortable" positioning preventing them from receiving adequate stimulation.

Does that help?

 

[cruiseline]

Yes that does help a lot thanks.

What would you say about using this technique on a stallion that is, shall we say, very keen.

In theory, this method could potentially avoid young stallions learning to rear when excited, as is needed when mounting either a mare or a dummy. they will just squat instead

Very interesting.

 

[Stinkbomb]

Hmm i had never heard of ground training before now

is there any thing i can read about it?? I have all sorts of images running through my mind

and would like to know more. Why is this approach taken??

 

[Stinkbomb]

Oops sorry just read your reply on my other thread!! Why is this approach taken rather than others though??

 

[AndyPandy]

Well, ground training has a number of advantages over other methods of collection...

1) Injured or elderly stallions which cannot collect from a dummy mare, or mount a mare for natural cover can still be used for breeding.

2) The method removes the need for a dummy mare, which can be a very expensive piece of equipment, especially when trying to set up from home.

3) It also means that stallions can be collected at home/at their training venue without having to be transported to a stud.

4) It removes an additional danger from the collection process - flailing/loose front legs.

5) It does not cause any undue stress and strain to the stallion's back and legs.

6) It removes the danger of the stallion possibly slipping and falling from the mount (which is rare, but does happen once in a while, and can lead to broken limbs etc.)

7) In the recent USA outbreak of CEM, the dummy mare at the originating farm is probably the cause of transmission from stallion to stallion. It removes this additional method of disease transmission between stallions.

8) Some people believe that it also helps to further break the association between mares and ejaculation, and also encourages stallions not to rear.

Plenty of good reasons to use this particular method.

 

[Greymares]

In our limited experience the ground collecting can be quite dangerous unless the stallion is really settled to it. Their natural instinct is to rear and we have found that because they can't, they can get quite cross and can seriously cow kick the av and handler.
We could not get a stallion on the dummy once and so we collected from the ground, this was ok the first few times and then he wanted to rear up (still wouldn't on the dummy and owner did not want him on a mare). He got quite dangerous in the end but the mares were in foal so that was that. We have ground collected from both our stallions too as we thought it would be easier. The laid back one would only occasionally as he needs a mare near by the dummy to collect anyway as some days he just aint in the mood. The keen one is so keen it is dangerous getting him to the dummy and so ground collection seemed ideal. It was for half the season and then he decided he didn't want to do it that way and would kick out to the side and stike in front, so it was back to the dummy.
I much prefer collecting with the dummy as at least they are stood on their back legs and with experience you know when to get out of the way if they are not stable.
I do find AP's pic quite horrifying in that no one has a hat on or decent footwear, even the quietest stallion can have a moment!

 

[no_no_nanette]

Looks to me like the guy with the stallion does have a hat on ... and its not usual practise for vets examining a mare (as in last pic) to wear a hat? Mind you, I think that the vet who our mare cow-kicked when she was being examined would have wished that she was wearing metal leg protectors at the time!

 

[AndyPandy]

Apologies for posting the picture with the AV handler and collector not wearing hats. It was merely to illustrate what I meant by "ground collection". That photo is from Equine-Reproduction.com, but was not meant to illustrate -how- it is done. Whenever I am working with stallions I always wear a hat and decent footwear, and insist that others I am working with do the same (and should do whenever working with horses in general).

WRT the danger, I will post these comments made by Jos Mottershead in response to concerns about the safety of ground collecting:

"In my opinion, ground collection carries no more nor less risk or danger than collecting on a breeding mount. Additionally - again as with the breeding mount situation - it is a "horses for courses" situation, and with some stallions it will be decidedly safer than collecting on a mount, and with others less so. Part of the correct training process, as you well know, is determining the suitability of the stallion to the technique. If for example - in the rare cases it happens - one has a stallion that cannot get it firmly ensconced in his mind that going up is not necessary, he is not a good candidate for continuing ground collection. On the other hand, if one has a stallion who trains well to collect on the ground - and I will say that the vast majority of stallions that ground collect fall into the "better" category - it is far safer than collecting on the breeding mount because the stallion does not have to, and has no desire to, get up off the ground, and therefore there is no risk of injury to stallion or AV handler from front feet being loose in the air.

Periodically we run into uneducated persons that claim that ground collection is more dangerous than collecting on the breeding mount, and I believe in most cases that claim is made as a result of a lack of experience - or at least a lack of educated experience (if they have dealt with a badly trained or stallion inappropriate for the method, obviously they will have a jaded view!). We also sometimes encounter people that voice concerns that a ground-collection trained stallion might either (a) not differentiate between being routinely handled in a non-sexual situation; or (b) want to mount a person. Neither of these situations have we found to be the case in the hundreds of ground-collection trainings we have performed, and I believe that in the unlikely event of either happening, it is an indication of an overall bad-mannered stallion that has neither been correctly trained, nor handled properly on a day-to-day basis. Indeed in the latter case - that of a greater risk of the stallion mounting a person - that is more likely to occur with a badly-behaved stallion that has been trained to the breeding mount, as he has a natural inclination to want to mount something in a sexual situation.

An argument is sometimes put forward that ground collection is more stressful physically on the horse himself. This has been demonstrated in practice to not be the case, and Dr. Sue McDonnell (University of Pennsylvania, New Bolton) - as do we - considers that especially in the case of a stallion with lameness issues related to the back and hind quarters, a better - complete - ejaculate will be achieved as a result of the use of ground collection vs. breeding mount techniques, as in the case of the latter, greater strain - and therefore discomfort - occurs, sometimes causing a stallion to incompletely ejaculate. I am sure that if Defra had questions, Dr. McDonnell would be able to answer those for them, as she is one of the world leaders in the use and training of the technique. I have also attached* a copy of an article on the subject that was presented by Dr. McDonnell at the 1999 AAEP (American Association of Equine Practitioners) Convention, and which is taken from the proceedings. You will note that Dr. McDonnell clearly states in the abstract as well as elsewhere in the body that ground collection "...can be especially useful for safe collection of semen...".

Hopefully this explanation and opinion will prove of use to you. Feel free to forward it to whomsoever is necessary.

Yours truly

Jos Mottershead
http://www.equine-reproduction.com"

*Please note that the attachment is not present, but I'm happy to forward the article to anyone who wants to read it.

 

[fiarmay]

I've always felt safer collecting from the ground although steel toe caps are a must have and you do have to be strong and well balanced as using one arm rather than the two when jumping on a dummy/mare. My shoulder became injured in the first season and from then had to be strapped up/ physio'd for the next two seasons and has taken a season off to recover!

 

[Stinkbomb]

Thanks very much everyone that was really interesting!

 

[sallyf]

See i personally prefer collecting from stallion on the dummy ,i hate ground collection but then i have a bad back and i find it very hard going

 

[maestro]

We have ground collected off our stallion and was very good at it. he just wouldnt jump a dummy. However he got quite lazy over it and harder and harder to get going, especially if we needed more than one collection off him. (Which we did try to avoid) It also gave my daughter who was the only one he would collect for real problems in her neck and shoulder, so for her sake he has had to go where he can jump a mare, he is very straight forward then!