'standing up' when being led in

ester

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I only used the loading as an example of bribery not that that was what I thought you meant by trouble at shows PS, but just that I think it is important to differentiate (or define) between the different responses to different behaviours, however subtle the difference because the animal is often aware of that and the term 'bribery' for most would have negative connotations and not really describe what is actually happening.

Obviously I find the shaping/learning of behaviours interesting from a science point of view, and not just in dogs... My uni mostly used starlings IIRC!
 

Prince33Sp4rkle

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Apologies PS I didn't mean to come across as rude its just that Monty, Max and Kelly do not use scientific based behaviour tools/evidence. They really use a version what most of us have used for donkey's years.......good old fashioned horsemanship. I would say they are horsemanship trainers and not behaviourists. As someone passionate about behaviourists believe me none of them are that. Please believe me when I mean I don't mean to be rude. If I needed an answer on dressage you would be the person to come to. But (I don't believe and correct me if I am wrong) you have not attended the workshops and courses that I have about equine behaviour. Please do have a read of the links as they are fascinating. Believe me I would have taken exactly your stance 7 years ago but it simply wasn't working. I don't want to sound like some new age hippy convert but I am a fan of science - I like evidence based thinking. You are correct that Monty etc have a high success rate, but trust me after learning what I have they wouldn't touch any of my horses.

Riding and producing horses is as much art as science-pure science based theories applied to something like handling animals does not work (in isolation) IME.

So far the links are nothing new to me. I am well aware of the different types of learning and well aware of the situations each is most commonly used in and indeed most effective in.

I dont need to go on a workshop to know that teaching my young stallion to lead up nicely by pressure and release via a halter and groundwork will have a longer lasting effect than wafting buckets of feed in his face and is going to be a lot easier to implement daily and a lot safer in any situation, from my yard, to shows, to covering(if he remains entire).

I dont find you rude particularly but i do find it insulting that you assume i will *see the light* and be converted as you have.

just as an example, the same 3yo stallion got away from me a couple of times turning out at the end of last year. He was (and still is) a perfect gent on the yard, to take to the wash box, to do in hand work with in the school, and to bring in-he has NEVER put a foot wrong leading IN or around the yard. You can leave his stable door open and he will not walk out, he can be rugged,groomed,tacked up, etc without being tied up.
BUT he found going to the field too exciting, and would literally go from walk to gallop, no jog or warning.Sit down like a racehorse and go.

We tackled this by working him in the school in a pressure halter so that he understood pressure/release and to mirror my body language, move forward with me, stop with me, and not move past my shoulder.

We then took this to the field situation, stopping and starting to reinforce he must still mirror me, but when he tried to go, we let him run to the end of the line and hit the pressure halter HARD. He reinforced the lesson himself, walked calmly the rest of the way, stopping as i stopped, and has never taken a step past my shoulder since. I would trust him to be take to the field by a child now.

should I ever have trouble loading, i am half way there as he already understands to give to the pressure and walk with me.

Please explain step by step how you would use food based training to over come the exact same issue.
 

SaffronWelshDragon

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Riding and producing horses is as much art as science-pure science based theories applied to something like handling animals does not work (in isolation) IME.

So far the links are nothing new to me. I am well aware of the different types of learning and well aware of the situations each is most commonly used in and indeed most effective in.

I dont need to go on a workshop to know that teaching my young stallion to lead up nicely by pressure and release via a halter and groundwork will have a longer lasting effect than wafting buckets of feed in his face and is going to be a lot easier to implement daily and a lot safer in any situation, from my yard, to shows, to covering(if he remains entire).

I dont find you rude particularly but i do find it insulting that you assume i will *see the light* and be converted as you have.

just as an example, the same 3yo stallion got away from me a couple of times turning out at the end of last year. He was (and still is) a perfect gent on the yard, to take to the wash box, to do in hand work with in the school, and to bring in-he has NEVER put a foot wrong leading IN or around the yard. You can leave his stable door open and he will not walk out, he can be rugged,groomed,tacked up, etc without being tied up.
BUT he found going to the field too exciting, and would literally go from walk to gallop, no jog or warning.Sit down like a racehorse and go.

We tackled this by working him in the school in a pressure halter so that he understood pressure/release and to mirror my body language, move forward with me, stop with me, and not move past my shoulder.

We then took this to the field situation, stopping and starting to reinforce he must still mirror me, but when he tried to go, we let him run to the end of the line and hit the pressure halter HARD. He reinforced the lesson himself, walked calmly the rest of the way, stopping as i stopped, and has never taken a step past my shoulder since. I would trust him to be take to the field by a child now.

should I ever have trouble loading, i am half way there as he already understands to give to the pressure and walk with me.

Please explain step by step how you would use food based training to over come the exact same issue.

'Like'
 

AengusOg

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I'm not able to lead him in from the field due to working hours (all horses have to be brought in together), so I have to rely on a friend to do it and therefore can't suggest using a normal headcollar.

Any ideas?!

Find out what your friend is doing to counter this. It's certain that her handling of the horse is having a profound affect on his behaviour.
 

flirtygerty

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i really wouldnt be using food as bribery unless you want to swap rearing for biting and then rearing when food is not instantly forthcoming.....................

horses should behave because they are told, not because they wont get sweeties if they dont. Im not saying be aggressive or violent or unfairly harsh, but manners are learnt and not bribed IMO.

Not a fan of treats, but sometimes they do have a part to play in training, my 3yr old cob got a real fright when being mounted and took of bucking, we took him right back to basics using a dummy rider and when I went to mount for the first time after his scare, he wasn't happy and tried to take off, long reined him instead, next time had someone at his head with mints, he stood at the mounting block, he got a mint, stood to mount, he got a mint either side as a carrot stretch, treats are easily dispensed with, give a scratch instead, but while a problem is ongoing they have their uses, this cob on viewing him, physically trembled when he saw the tack coming, so if he wants to play up sometimes, it just shows he trusts us not to hurt him
 

flirtygerty

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Just to say my largest is 17 2hh, the smallest is the young cob at 14 hh(ish) I insist on manners, all of mine will wait till haynets are put up or feeds given, THEN told they can eat, coming in or out of the field, they know they turn to the gate, they are taught manners from day one,it does take work, but I can rug up or pick feet out in the field, just on one word STAND, my lot follow like dogs, but still need reminded that I like a sedate walk from the field, especially the young cob, who tries to rush through life, but they are animals and therefore can be unpredictable, I react to a fright sometimes, but for all I use my voice to growl at them or softly sweet talk them, treats do have their uses and none of mine expect food as the normal treat, if any of mine get pushy, the get to know their place
 

chestnuttyy

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Firstly apologies for the lack of response I ended up being v busy yesterday and forgot to check the thread!

Secondly thank you for all your replies.

Friend is very strict with him, if he prats about pressure is Increasd and he's told off, the problem is when he gets into his 'state' it's like he is on a different planet.

I managed to be able to get up there this am to bring him in and every time he dared move past my shoulder he was sent backwards. I think I will try leading in a bridle and really work on his manners generally using the pressure release/ sending backwards methods. I just hope he improves because he's an absolute nightmare at the moment
 

nianya

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Please name a top behaviourist who does not use food and no Monty Roberts and his gang do not count............

They absolutely do count. Unlike dogs, with horses food is very much a hierarchy issue. The top horse chooses who eats, when, and where. Giving them food as a bribe in this case reinforces for them that they are the ones in charge. The top natural horseman behaviorists (Monty Roberts and others) are very clear on this which is why the release is the positive reinforcement. Not the food.

There is no "science based" method of behavior here. Monty Roberts, Julie Goodnight and others came to their methods through long observation of wild and domestic horses. Observational and experiential is the most you can possible get. I'm glad you had a good experience with a behaviorist that used treats. It would never have worked with my older mare, and my young mare just got grabby when treats were used. Frankly, my experience of food as a reward is that it can't be given all the time. If they expect it, then I see bad behavior because all they've learned is to do a trick for food.

I'll echo what others said (as a scientists myself) that training any animal is as much art as science.
 

Prince33Sp4rkle

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Not a fan of treats, but sometimes they do have a part to play in training, my 3yr old cob got a real fright when being mounted and took of bucking, we took him right back to basics using a dummy rider and when I went to mount for the first time after his scare, he wasn't happy and tried to take off, long reined him instead, next time had someone at his head with mints, he stood at the mounting block, he got a mint, stood to mount, he got a mint either side as a carrot stretch, treats are easily dispensed with, give a scratch instead, but while a problem is ongoing they have their uses, this cob on viewing him, physically trembled when he saw the tack coming, so if he wants to play up sometimes, it just shows he trusts us not to hurt him

see,personally i still wouldnt use food in that situation-seen it happen time and time again that the horse is SO interested in the food that they then get even more of a fright when rider is suddenly on board.

Chesnutty-i think that sounds like a good plan :)
 

AengusOg

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Friend is very strict with him, if he prats about pressure is Increasd and he's told off, the problem is when he gets into his 'state' it's like he is on a different planet.

That's your problem there. He doesn't understand your friend's unreasonable behaviour. It's scaring him and he 'prats about' as a result of inept, unfair handling. Ask someone who knows how to handle horses to work with him and see the difference for yourself.
 

chestnuttyy

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That's your problem there. He doesn't understand your friend's unreasonable behaviour. It's scaring him and he 'prats about' as a result of inept, unfair handling. Ask someone who knows how to handle horses to work with him and see the difference for yourself.

Sorry but I really don't agree. If he was scared he wouldn't walk like a lamb for the first half then launch himself into a fit of horrible behaviour out of nowhere. He's also absolutely fine when being led back out to the field and elsewhere.

I spent time with him over the last few days practising halting, rein back walking on quietly and we have made progress. I will continue to keep doing ground work so he understands what appropriate behaviour is, I will also ensure I am consistent wih him.

Thanks for all your replies.
 
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