Sterotyping/accepting/excusing Breed behaviour?

[Illusion100]

This is a bit of a waffly one with no real point but I suppose because it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, I'd post about it and see what everyone else thinks. I find myself musing about this quite often....

For example, a friend was asking me recently whether her new Instructors advice was correct, in that the advice was she has to be more assertive with her horse because of her Breeding. I said, imo, the temperament/personality of the horse is what needs focus, not the Breeding. Firstly, the breeding of this particular horse is unknown, I'd say Native/cob mix but Owner is convinced that Arabian is in the Breeding as she can hold her tail very high when excited...... I've mentioned that mine holds his over his back when fired up and I know for a fact he has no Arab in him (unless we want to go back to the founding breeding stock ), so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Would I treat an Arab differently to an Exmoor due to the breed? No, personally I would treat it down to it's own temperament.

Welsh D's get stereotyped a lot, usually regarding 'bad' behaviour and it's put down to being typical of the breed. I struggle to accept that, in my mind, it is almost expected and therefore 'tolerated' rather than addressed. Would I treat a Welsh D differently to a Connemara? No.

Do I expect TB's to be highly strung/spooky? Not really, I find a Cob can be as flighty as a TB.

Does anyone else find it hard to accept behavioural issues being Breed Stereotyped? I almost think it's a bit unfair and that it may actually influence people ignoring unwanted behaviour as it's just 'typical'?

I hope you all get where I'm coming from, I don't mean this as confrontational but the whole issue confuses me!

What's your view?

 

[milliepops]

Lol, I totally agree with you. Each horse is an individual and should be trained & handled as such IMO

 

[{97702}]

Ditto milliepops on this - I find it SO annoying (irrationally) when people say 'no TBs' when they are advertising for a horse, how can they possibly know how every TB is going to act?

 

[Starzaan]

I think there is some truth in breed stereotypes - Welsh D's being headstrong and stubborn being one, but as with everything there are exceptions. I think that all horses are capable of being polite and easy to deal with, it just depends on the owner.

I absolutely cannot abide rude horses, and often have people commenting on how polite and easy my youngster is to do, saying it must be because he is Irish. When he came to me he was rude, spooky, and his first reaction to most things was to spin and leg it. Now he is a horse I am incredibly proud to own, after just nine months. This morning, for instance, I rode him to the field in his headcollar and rug, with my two Great Danes running around us, a train whizzed past about ten metres away, and a plastic bag flew across the lane and wrapped itself round his leg. He was a superstar.

In my opinion it's like dogs - spaniels will always be a bit 'spaniel' at times and need lots of exercise and focus, but they aren't all bonkers. It depends on the owners far more than the breeding I think.

 

[Michen]

What's wrong with that? Maybe they just don't want something that's likely raced. Whilst there are many wonderful, sound ex racers out there it cannot be denied that they are broken young and worked hard, and more predisposed to having certain health issues (not all of course).

What's the issue with knowing what you do and don't want and placing it on ad advert? Mine would say "no heavy cobs". Not because I assume that all heavy cobs are the same to ride and own, just because they simply aren't my type.

There is nothing wrong with stating no tb's, no Welsh d, no cob, no coloureds, no mares etc etc on an advert, at the end of the day the buyer more than likely has a reason for such specifications and they should be respected.

Ditto milliepops on this - I find it SO annoying (irrationally) when people say 'no TBs' when they are advertising for a horse, how can they possibly know how every TB is going to act?

 

[be positive]

I agree with you in that you should deal with the horse as an individual not as you think it might be due to breed or type, there are breed traits though that do come through certain lines and knowledgeable breeders within each breed will know those traits, whether to avoid or use them depending on what they are trying to breed.
A cob of unknown breeding such as your friend has will have no recognisable breed traits as it has no known breeding so should be treated as "a horse" she possibly needs to be more assertive but this will be nothing to do with how the horse is bred but how it has been brought up.

 

[HelenRod]

I've been guilty of this, 9/10 weeks ago I bought a 4-year old D stallion, my old mare was Welsh x Arab & flighty unpredictable, sure footed, fun, fast, jumped liked a stag etc but since I've had my new one I have been petrified at times of him, although he's never done anything wrong he's been am angel both on the ground and ridden but 8 am still nervous on the ground because he is a stallion! I think hes going to drag me off, strike out generally be a fool all cos he's a stallion.

Unfortunately horses get the same prejudices people do 😕

 

[Merlod]

I do think they should all be judged on an individual basis, and certainly if the horse has given no reason to need assertive handling then there is no reason to start just because of its breed. BUT certain breeds are more likey to act a certain way, for example a lot of sec D's are difficult - not in a bad/ lack of training way thats just how they are mostly due to the linebreeding for the flashy and firey types for showing.

It's generally known which breeds are more likely to look after a novice and which ones will need a more competent and confident rider.

I have a welsh D and a connemara who are consistently handled, and ridden by me and I can say without a doubt that I can see why Connemara's are expensive, they are a lot easier - i'm not saying my Welsh D is bad - I love him but he does need firmer boundries. ETA My welsh d's behaviour needs no excusing - he is well behaved, but he does need to be kept in check and can test new riders handlers whereas the Connemara will be a goody two shoes as long as he lives and for whoever is handling and riding him lol!

 

[Enfys]

Lol, I totally agree with you. Each horse is an individual and should be trained & handled as such IMO

Agree.

In all breeds there are different types I think, mentally, and physically (look at the different shapes of tbs and arabs for example) and that is what individual breeders ultimately choose to breed for, the pretty head (never mind the brain in it) , the sane mind, the extravagant paces, speed, size, colour etc

Personality wise, take arabs (because that's the breed I have most experience with over 20+ years) I have worked with some completely neurotic fruitcakes that think every little thing is out to eat them (and they were often similar bloodlines) and on the other hand there are the dear, sensitive souls that would run until they dropped for one rider one day, and the next day plod around with a novice/child/disabled rider on them as if they were made of glass.

I do so hate it when I read " All arabs/tbs/warmbloods (you name it) are ... " so not true.

It would be more accurate to say " this bloodline ... " don't you think?

 

[ester]

I don't know, all the TBs I've known would have a melt down and think the world is ending if I dealt with them the way I lay the law down with Frank (inclined to revert to bargey welsh cob behaviour at times)- and other cob types. Hence I treat them differently.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses clearly are individuals and should treated as such .
But breeds do have characteristics and it's silly to ignore what years of selective breeding has created .
Temperament is too a degree inherited .
ID's are ID's they have a definite ID vibe about them that you recognise when you have known a few .
TBs have a Tb vibe
Welsh D' s have a definite vibe .
Connie's feel like a Connie when you are round them .
It's silly to ignore these characteristics after all we have been breeding types for hundreds of years .
I personally don't think TBs are spooky it's not a characteristic I recognise in them welsh D's however tend IME to be silly and spooky .

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have two horses of the same breed. I got both as yearlings and they live in the same herd so a similar upbringing from about a year old. They are chalk and cheese in their temperaments, how they react to things and even how they learn, so I have to take a different approach to training with each of them.

 

[Illusion100]

Really enjoying reading all the responses, thanks for replying everyone!

I agree Breeds/Bloodlines can stamp traits and these need taken into consideration.........but to what extent?

For example, my entire Rott's behaviour could be seen as threatening to some whereas to others he's just checking things out. How much does our own individual interpretation of a behaviour influence that animal and how much does the Breed/sex influence our initial interpretation?

I treat them how I find them, yes I take into consideration the background/breeding/bloodlines/sex but really, I just look at the animal in front of me and go from there.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Shetlands are the worst for being stereotyped. When brought up like a horse they are delightful. When brought up like a cute wee pony they are little horrors.

Bloodlines have a lot to answer for. As has already been said selective breeding creates such issues. In the TB lines that I have come across Sadler's Wells tend to have a cheeky buck in them. Sadler's Halls are gutless in a fight. Antonious Pius aren't the soundest. Etc.

 

[NZJenny]

Having had mostly Arabians, I tend to take it as a compliment when people say they are a bit "special" and not everyone gets on with them.

However, now I have a TB/Clydie cross and she is a different kind of special.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Well it is a fact that welsh Ds need the right handling for them to live in society like a normal horse.

I would never use breed as an excuse, but I regularly tell people how I have to handle my welsh Ds to get good behaviour and even then, they are still welsh Ds and not for everyone.

There's no getting away from the fact that breed generally plays a part in behaviour. Otherwise we wouldn't have breeds. Some are for some folk and not for others. That doesn't mean breed should be an excuse for allowing bad behaviour because it shouldn't.

 

[Illusion100]

Well it is a fact that welsh Ds need the right handling for them to live in society like a normal horse.

Why is that?

 

[rachk89]

Shetlands are the worst for being stereotyped. When brought up like a horse they are delightful. When brought up like a cute wee pony they are little horrors.

I do always find with Shetlands though that they are slightly evil when you are bigger than them but angels with small children. That's more of a height complex though they have small horse syndrome That doesn't put me off them but I wouldn't other than as a companion anyway I am a tad too tall for them now.

The only breed I would treat with a bit of caution is a tb purely based on the fact one broke my leg. I will get over that fact eventually but not right now. It happens though if you have a bad experience with a particular breed of animal. When I was younger I was knocked to the ground by a rather large Alsation and it took me years to not be scared of them. It seems illogical to some but it's a basic instinct to survive really isn't it.

 

[Jango]

Breed stereotypes are there for a reason which is because they are common breed traits or reactions to a problem. It doesn't mean all Welsh Ds are neurotic but if you take 20 Ds and 20 Connies I bet more of the Ds would be spooky and silly.

I've totally swapped breeds/types with a new horse from a D to KWPN and their natural reaction is just different, if something scared the Welsh lad he would attempt to leg off (it was actually very rare and I didn't let him go anywhere) whereas the WB will stop dead and that needs to be dealt with in a different way.

All horses need to behave in a safe and sensible manner for their job, it might not matter to the owner of a talented dressage horse if it has the odd big spook/spin warming up but for a riding school pony that is totally unsuitable. What I'm trying to say is breed traits do need to be accounted for in training methods but the end behaviour should turn out in what you want. Both my horses hack beautifully, alone over any terrain but either with a compete novice would be a disaster!

 

[EstherYoung]

Most horses have some arab in them somewhere.....

 

[ycbm]

Of course each horse should be treated as an individual.

But breed 'stereotyping' is a percentage game. For example, if you take a hundred horses of each breed, more will have a particular characteristic than one hundred of another breed.

So, in my experience -

more flat racer bred TB horses, whether raced our not, will be flighty and sensitive and likely to kick off in company than draught crosses.

More Welsh Ds will be bargy and rude and need over-assertive handling to keep them in their place than other breeds of similar size.

More Shetlands will nip through any open gate or bit of weak fencing and leave their herd to go exploring than any other breed.

More Connies will be jumping machines than Arabs.



So if you are buying and don't know the bloodline traits, then you can only go by the percentage risk and, for example, buy a Connie not a Section D if you don't want to have to get 'nasty' with your horse now and again.

What doesn't make sense is stereotyping of large groups of 'types' like warmbloods, which can be any breed at all. Lots of today's warmbloods are TB or TB cross with a lot of TB. On the other hand, it's my impression that the ones bred for extravagant movement are far more likely to be temperamental tricky.

So I think there is truth in the breed stereotypes, but it's far from the full story.

 

[AmieeT]

From my (limited) experience I'd agree too. I recently started riding a TB having ridden a Welshie as my first horse for the last 3 years, and everyone told me that she was more spooky etc because of her breeding (I posted a thread about this). In actual fact, she no more spooky, just quicker to spook. Yes she's a total cow sometimes, but frankly I've found that to be when she's in season, so would expect her to be PMSing.

The other TB I've ridden a few times is a total Saint, but there's an ISH I've ridden that is a bloody monster!

 

[milliepops]

Well it is a fact that welsh Ds need the right handling for them to live in society like a normal horse.

Why is that?

It's an interesting one and I'm not convinced that there isn't a bit of cause & effect confusion going on... not specifically with FW's post above but in general. There is an element with all horses that if you expect something of their behaviour, you will end up with it. If you expect a horse to be spooky and jumpy, are you as a rider transmitting that tension to the horse - causing it to be spooky and jumpy? If you treat a horse expecting it to be rude, does it react to something you are giving off with 'rude' behaviour? We've probably all met someone with an electric bum who inadvertantly whizzes everything up.

I dunno. Absolutely loads of horses I've known has bucked the breed stereotype. I've known extremely hot and rude connies, dopey TBs, terrified IDs, dobbinsh section Ds, super sensible Arabs... It's fun to think of horses according to their stereotypes but I honestly don't think they hold *that* much use when it comes to training and handling approaches.

There's probably a bit of nature vs nurture too. It would be an interesting experiment to get a varied bunch of different breed foals and keep them all in exactly the same way, to see how much environment/how they were raised/early life experiences affected their apparently stereotypical behaviour. Would, e.g. an TB brought up with exmoor ponies, say, exhibit classic-TB behaviour....?

 

[Annagain]

I've always treated mine as individuals. My old boy was a typical D and I couldn't give him the proverbial inch on the ground. I learned this by handling him and getting to know him not by thinking "he's a D, I better do it this way". I could be a lot more lenient on board as although he was opinionated and very excitable, he wasn't a typical D in the sense he wasn't in the slightest bit spooky or sharp.

My current boy (IDx, not that it matters!) suffered a bit when I first had him as he displayed similar behaviour to my D under saddle and I automatically put it down to excitability as that was my experience. It took me a good few months to realise it was anxiety instead and I therefore needed to deal with it differently. There was me going "yay let's go" while he was saying "I'm not sure about this mum". Having said that, he has a big stubborn streak and I need to be a lot firmer with him under saddle with him than with my old boy and my share horse. A spooks and gets told off, M spooks and gets to stand still and look at it for 10 seconds as he never normally does it! We've always put M's laidbackness down to his Irish breeding, then earlier this year his breeder tracked us down and it turns out he has precisely 0% Irish in him. he's 5/8 TB, 1/4 Welsh and 1/8 Shire!

I would put no TBs on a wanted ad too - not because of their perceived temperaments but because I don't want to have to feed and rug them to the hilt and I don't like riding lightweight horses. I ride my friend's TB from time to time and feel like I'm perched on top rather than sitting into him. I like a nice neck in front of me for when things go wrong! Each to their own.

 

[PollyP99]

If anyone rough handled my d she would be a nightmare as she would be scared of the handler, she is a meek sensitive soul with not a bolshy bone in her body. I treat her gently and in turn she is very easy to handle.

So in her case if the breed stereotype was followed by someone it would result in having a very scared horse on their hands and would likely be labeled as difficult.

A friend also git landed with a nut job connie who had a death wish so you do so have to judge only the horse in Front you.

 

[Cortez]

Who was it said "All stereotypes are true, but it is a matter of degree"?, and there are always the exceptions that break the rule. A horse is a horse is a horse, but there are most definitely trends, particularly with temperament. Therefore I would have no hesitation in recommending a certain type of horse for a novice over another type, but also acknowledge that SOME horses do not conform to their stereotype.

 

[madlady]

Who was it said "All stereotypes are true, but it is a matter of degree"?, and there are always the exceptions that break the rule. A horse is a horse is a horse, but there are most definitely trends, particularly with temperament. Therefore I would have no hesitation in recommending a certain type of horse for a novice over another type, but also acknowledge that SOME horses do not conform to their stereotype.

Absolutely agree.

I have 3 of the same breed and all are related - whilst they do have some commonality (and what I would call breed 'traits') they are all very different individuals and are dealt with accordingly. One needs to be told what to do, one would have a meltdown if I tried that with her and the other is pretty much a do anything type (but she is older and has much more experience).

All of them however have the same default reaction to something scary - turn in the opposite direction but not sharply and no running away, they are all willing but lazy (if that makes sense) and they are all people lovers.

 

[Walrus]

Who was it said "All stereotypes are true, but it is a matter of degree"?, and there are always the exceptions that break the rule. A horse is a horse is a horse, but there are most definitely trends, particularly with temperament. Therefore I would have no hesitation in recommending a certain type of horse for a novice over another type, but also acknowledge that SOME horses do not conform to their stereotype.

Agree with this, i think you do get behaviour traits within breeds, obviously all are individuals but i have a fell and as i've got to know more and more fells and fell owners there are occasions when you go "typical fell" at certain types of behaviour (usually that slightly cheeky, stubborn element that probably comes from the type of temperament required to survive on a hill in cumbria in winter).

My pet peeve is people who say "who says cobs can't jump, mine can!" or "who says natives can't do dressage, mine does!" I've never met anyone who has told me my pony can't do something, and also, no one cares, everyone is just concentrating on themselves most of the time! I find the owners of the "underdog" horses in certain disciplines are the most vocal about how supposedly "useless" their animal is supposed to be - whilst everyone else is just getting on with it! Yes by all means celebrate when you do well and represent the breed etc. but don't moan about how hard it is to compete against the "proper horses" because you're on something a bit different. Anyho...rant over!

 

[smja]

I think a lot of the stereotyping comes from a lack of exposure and prior expectations - a person who has never met an example of a particular breed, or who has only met one, will have an idea in their head of what they 'should' be like.

We've got an Arab. People expect him to be wild and spooky - he's not (unless wound up, but that's another story ). Then he gets called "so un-Arab-y - what's he crossed with?". *rolls eyes*

 

[Slightlyconfused]

When ever I tell people we have a n exracer I get the 'you are brave' or the 'I don't think I could ever cope with one as they a rd all nutters' ours raced 81 race as, retired at aged 9 and we got him a year later. He has had ups and downs but my Welsh was more neurotic than him, had a bout of ulcers but so did the medium weight cob on the yard. He can take my disabled brother for a plod round the fields like a dope on a rope or go xx with my sister.

When I look at horses I look at personality first, conformation second then breed of horse